help with silver etching

[Ralph G]

For deep etching on metal you ll definitely need an powerful YAG laser - these dont come cheap unfortunately.
The cheap (mostly chinese made 1000mW-3000mW )CO2 laser engraving machines dont work on metal at all. you will need at least a 40W co2 Laser and a special marking spray. this will burn the spray into the surface of the metal leaving a more or less grey/black surface marking of varying durability depending on the spray mostly. From what I read people had success with this method but its just a surface marking anyway and does not go deep. For that you need a more powerful fiber laser(YAG)
But You could use it to cut vinyl templates/masks... but be aware that the optics on some of them are not able to focus to a very fine dot so minimal line width and as such the level of detail is limited this is definitely a question I would ask the vendor. Jewelry stuff is usually small so detail matters.
The interface between the laser and your graphics program is also of importance , for convenience of use it should be able to accept output formats from corel, autocad or whatever else programm you use to create your pattern. Some of the cheap units only come with limited capability in that regard.

I have looked into that as an alternative but a machine that could do what I want with will be roughly in the 10.000€ range and above.... If you are content with only surface marking a much cheaper CO2 will do. So far I am sticking to etching which gives me good results and is budget friendly as well.

Prices on lasers, 3d printers, cnc milling machines and such for the casual consumer market are steadily going down and quality goes up because of demand so I guess in a few years we will see som really good stuff coming from all those kickstarter projects.. Until then I am content to stay "old school".

[bills makes]

Thank you very much for your help with this I have had another look today and the cost will be way out of my price range I think my problem is the cheap Chinese nock off p n p paper I did another try today and used my friends heat press instead of a iron the image transfered fine but it has minute pin holes in the mask which is causing the pitting I am getting so have ordered some p n p blue to try the press makes the job easier as it has a timer I just set it to 150 deg C and time to 480 seconds worked a treat to transfer the image .

[ps_bond]

For deep etching on metal you ll definitely need an powerful YAG laser - these dont come cheap unfortunately.

They don't, but your opening statement is... Erroneous.

The 2 biggest issues with traditional etching are keeping the etch area clear (of bubbles and etch products) and undercutting. The former can be mitigated with a bubble etch (or even just a feather) while there is plenty of work out there that demonstrates that electroetching does not undercut to the same degree with an appropriately shaped electrode. Google electrochemical machining and pick out the useful bits.

I'm more inclined than most to throw tech at a problem and I haven't gone down the laser etch route (although it'd probably be fibre rather than YAG; already got a YAG welder).

[enigma]

Sure because nobody ever managed any decent etchings before lasers were invented.....

[Ralph G]

Well, there might be a slight misunderstanding here, my statement on YAG lasers was in direct response to bills inquiry into laser etching in his the last post and was intentionally ment that for deep LASER etching youll need an YAG - a cheap CO2 will not do. This might have fallen out of context because my response went on the next page in the thread. I have done my fair share of etching , both chemical and electrochemical and know my way around an etch tank - as for low tec its still the best method around. With the right chemistry you can etch almost anything.

These were all etched with traditional methods, some Toner transfer, some photofilm. Its amazing what kind of detail you can achieve even with simple methods. the motives might not hit everybodys fancy tough...





Ive even experimented with some completely fluoric and fluoride-salts free titanium etching - even that can be done - but I have not refined it to the crisp and smooth etch of the other Metals, etch is partly uneven and background is still too rough for my liking. The method needs refinement still. But I am not aware that anyone else has achieved similar etching of titanium without at least some fluorides present. The method is still nasty - nothing for the kitchen table - but I dont like to deal with fluoric acid...

[enigma]

Nice work Ralph and thanks for the explanation

[ps_bond]

Well, there might be a slight misunderstanding here, my statement on YAG lasers was in direct response to bills inquiry into laser etching in his the last post and was intentionally ment that for deep LASER etching youll need an YAG - a cheap CO2 will not do. This might have fallen out of context because my response went on the next page in the thread. I have done my fair share of etching , both chemical and electrochemical and know my way around an etch tank - as for low tec its still the best method around. With the right chemistry you can etch almost anything.

Context is everything

I've also done a fair amount, although the majority has been etching thin copper from a GRP substrate...

The cheap CO2 lasers are pretty worthless for anything other than trivial/low depth marking and even then they're not great; they are completely unsuited to cutting vinyl though - not even decent fume extraction will help. There are a number of laser cutting outfits that specifically exclude vinyl, but card works; however, the cheaper plotter/cutters also work for that and will do vinyl without the risks.

Ive even experimented with some completely fluoric and fluoride-salts free titanium etching - even that can be done - but I have not refined it to the crisp and smooth etch of the other Metals, etch is partly uneven and background is still too rough for my liking. The method needs refinement still. But I am not aware that anyone else has achieved similar etching of titanium without at least some fluorides present. The method is still nasty - nothing for the kitchen table - but I dont like to deal with fluoric acid...

Couldn't agree more - HF is not one I'm keen to have around, I don't feel I've got the right setup for handling it. Same goes for cyanides (plating rather than etching). Every solution - in both senses - I've seen for titanium has involved fluorine ions, which isn't much of an improvement on not using HF.

[Ralph G]

Couldn't agree more - HF is not one I'm keen to have around, I don't feel I've got the right setup for handling it. Same goes for cyanides (plating rather than etching). Every solution - in both senses - I've seen for titanium has involved fluorine ions, which isn't much of an improvement on not using HF.

Since the chemical side of the fluorine free titanium etch has been maxed out further improvements could only be made by altering the physical characteristics of the etch which would need some rather expensive equipment - so progress is stalling unfortunately. Ionic liquids instead of aqueous media could be another approach though. The Leicester University is at the forefront of this research but understandably they dont disclose specific processes...

A good, stable, Cyanide free silver plating bath that does mirror bright deposits would be nice - the industry is working on those, mainly because of the cost of waste disposal and waste water treatment - they are not so much concerned about its toxicity. There are numerous new patents involving Hydantoin based solutions which seem to show great promise -even better than succinimide is claimed. Unfortunately over here neither of these new (well, succinimide has been around for a while) baths are sold - for non-cyanide all you can get are the same old thiosulfate or pyrophosphate based baths which are neither stable nor produce mirror bright deposits in bath plating.
Well,
I think this is getting a bit off-topic so I will leave it at that.

[LydiaNiz]

Bill, I keep a few of these pens handy for my infrequent etching. They are good to go over any iffy areas of resist. I use parcel tape for blocks of metal I want to keep extra clean. Good luck!

[bills makes]

Thank you for that I now have a etch resist pen I did try a marker pen but it gets etched away just waiting for the p n p blue to arrive and then give it another go.