Boring stuff

[Patstone]

I dont know if its just me, but the threads on this forum have become boring. I used to spend hours on here, reading and learning from others, but recently there have been a lot of newbies who are be-littling the jewellery making process, by chucking things together with very little skill. Not so long ago, jewellery was the main topic and debates were real, but now every picture sent in, is "wow, its lovely" when it is just thrown together so no skill involved. This of course is just my opinion, but the jewellery making skills will be lost if people like the "oldies" on this forum stop showing their makes so it gives us lesser mortals something to live up to. I understand that encouragement is good, but so is active critisism.

[ps_bond]

Newbies have to start somewhere - the first pieces aren't likely to be masterpieces of complexity after all. If people don't want to grow and develop, that's up to them - it's this insane thing of not charging appropriately for work that gets me riled. Minimum wage in the UK is now £6.50 (21 & over); to charge only that - never mind below that - is crazy for a skilled craft. That's craft as in craftsmanship, not craft as in "arts and crafts". With the recent Summer Jewels exhibition in Romsey I spent 2 days (plus a bit) curating the exhibition - that's time that I was away from the bench and not creating, so that time needed to be paid for and far too many people don't factor that in.

As for not showing work - yup, guilty of that at the moment (arrogantly assuming I qualify as one of the oldies!). I've been putting some pieces on Facebook, but given the overlap between here & FB is fairly high (sorry George!) I don't generally like to over-saturate. Plus, a lot of the setting work I've been doing isn't something I have the rights to show (IMO). I've also been spending far too long characterising resins on the 3D printer lately when it should be generating saleable work (the downside of open source hardware).

Constructive criticism is what's ideal- say something you like about a piece, followed by something that could be improved. But it's all subjective.

[Patstone]

I think it depends where you live as to how much you can charge unless you sell online. We only sell at craft shows. We do have a website which is being refurbed at the moment, but we have never sold anything from it. All our sales are in a couple of craft fairs a month in the same venue. Both my daughter and myself make the jewellery, I am retired so I have more time to make, but my daughter works full time so time is short. Down here in Devon I dont think people have the money spare to buy jewellery, a lot of Devon is farming and as such a lot of people are on minimum wage and food is more important than a ring. I am not complaining, just stating a fact.

[ps_bond]

I think it depends where you live as to how much you can charge unless you sell online.

Cost of living is doubtless a factor in how much you charge, but materials costs and overheads are pretty much the same everywhere in the UK (carefully ignoring workshop rental in London).

I've said it before - charging low prices has 3 effects:
1. People do not value the piece. Jewellery is a luxury good, so its perceived value is based on the price. Workmanship and materials have to be there too, but if I have 2 similar stone-set rings, one priced at £50 and the other at £100 (both of which are still low prices - I can't spend much time on them at that level) then the £50 might sell, but it will be viewed as disposable by comparison. The standard price/demand curve is inverted for the luxury goods market - cf Veblen goods.
2. A maker who charges low prices will struggle to raise them. Becoming known for doing cheap work is not a good label to be saddled with and it will obstruct future development.
3. Charging low prices "because it sells" is a race to the bottom and bad for the business as a whole. All someone has to do is undercut and they get the sales - but for even less profit (and according to economics professors, somehow "negative profit" is still a profit - I'd call it a loss).

Again, as I have said before - do not compete with mass-produced jewellery, especially on price. You will lose.

Cost of selling has to be considered every time. If you sell at a gallery, the gallery takes commission to cover their cost of selling. If you sell online, you need to cover the costs - Etsy takes commission and there's time involved in getting items shipped out, for example. If you maintain a website, that is part of your cost of selling (both the space rental and the day-to-day administration).

Really, I ought to copy and paste this stuff. I only end up repeating myself.

[caroleallen]

It is very very hard to get your work recognised in such rural places. It took me years of slogging away at local craft fairs before I had the confidence to start doing bigger (and of course, more expensive) shows in the South East. The price of those shows is prohibitive for lots of people and you don't always sell lots, so it's a gamble. Nowadays I only do two shows a year, one local but well attended one in the summer and one at Christmas.

My lucky break came when I was approached by Notonthehighstreet. At that time there were many similar sites being opened and the joining fee on Noths was quite high. I took the gamble though and although it was slow to start with, it paid off in the end. That's also not an option for everyone as it's very hard to get into now.

I've never had any success with Etsy, probably because I don't have the time to work at it but I know a lot of people who do, so I think that's worth a shot.

I also know people who do well selling on social networking sites and that is something I'm really only just getting into, now that I have a website that I want to shout about. I bought a magazine about social networking from Molly Makes which was quite good.

I agree with Peter about not underpricing your work but I'm afraid I probably fall into that category for some of my more simple work which is a bit mass produced (in my very own sweatshop) but which I sell a lot of and I actually make a good profit on them. I do also take commissions and charge a lot more for them.

I don't really post up my jewellery on here any more because I make the same things again and again and it's mostly made for the Noths market so it's unremarkable. Occasionally I might show you a commissioned piece if I think its interesting. I suspect a lot of us are in the same boat.

[ps_bond]

It is very very hard to get your work recognised in such rural places.

Where I am is also fairly rural - more affluent, but even so you get people balking at paying even £100 for a handmade ring.

My lucky break came when I was approached by Notonthehighstreet. At that time there were many similar sites being opened and the joining fee on Noths was quite high. I took the gamble though and although it was slow to start with, it paid off in the end. That's also not an option for everyone as it's very hard to get into now.

Getting in at the ground level like that was fantastic - it's much more saturated with jewellery now, so no bad thing that they're more selective. Also works well for you with it being more exclusive - drives up the perception.

I agree with Peter about not underpricing your work but I'm afraid I probably fall into that category for some of my more simple work which is a bit mass produced (in my very own sweatshop) but which I sell a lot of and I actually make a good profit on them. I do also take commissions and charge a lot more for them.

If you're making a good profit on it, I'm not sure that qualifies as underpriced! Somehow I doubt you're not factoring in the costs properly... If you've got economies of scale that work, then great. It's like soldering 10 wedding rings in 1 hit, vs doing each one individually - if there's the opportunity to batch work up like that, so much the better.
(Double negative, sorry!)

[SteveLAO]

I generally only respond to the posts that concern hallmarking as I don't have the necessary skills to help with many other things so can't really comment, but it would be a real shame if the posts became "boring" as you mention. If I were a newbie I would like to think this is a great mine of information, with people on hand to help me with problems and give me advice. I really hope it will continue to be that source of knowledge from the old hands and experts as there can't be many places with such a large and varied number of skills on hand?

[jayneharrison]

As a newbie, I have to say that my heart sank a little reading this thread, particularly the first post. I think all I have to say on the matter is that everyone started somewhere, "without skill" and had to learn. Most of us still are learning.

I thought that this was a forum for all Cooksons customers - not just those who woke up one day skilled and experienced in all aspects of metalsmithing and jewellery making!

[pearlescence]

I think no-one here will have a problem giving useful feedback and comments - perhaps those who welcome it need to signal same by saying ' this is my first attempt at whatever. It took me ages and I know it isn't perfect, I want to learn -how can I improve...etc etc
what stifles feedback and shuts me down immediately is when someone writes 'I find this thread quite horrible really.'or 'my heart sank a little reading this thread, particularly the first post' because those comments are designed to quash anything remotely un-gushing. I had experience of a forum where someone who became a friend and I were the only two who were real businesses, the rest were amateurs making like businesses (you know the sort, not paying income tax on sales cos it is only a hobby) and when they asked for business advice and got it, they ran weeping to the moderators. Two more forums I u sed to post in have both turned from lively and informative centres for learning and education in the their subjects into 'look what I just spent a lot of money on' 'ohhh that is fabulous' and one got so dull that no-one has posted anything in a month.
Pricing is one of the hardest parts of selling, Silverlining. do you drive prices down to compete on price? do you go the just a hobby route which means probably undercutting those trying to earn a living, do you claim unique and double the price or do you follow a formula (double it and add 6p) or what... Bearing in mind that you might think that £500 is a reasonable price but if no-one pays it, it probably isn't, not least because you still have the item and no £££ in the bank

[silverlining]

I think no-one here will have a problem giving useful feedback and comments - perhaps those who welcome it need to signal same by saying ' this is my first attempt at whatever. It took me ages and I know it isn't perfect, I want to learn -how can I improve...etc etc
what stifles feedback and shuts me down immediately is when someone writes 'I find this thread quite horrible really.'or 'my heart sank a little reading this thread, particularly the first post' because those comments are designed to quash anything remotely un-gushing. I had experience of a forum where someone who became a friend and I were the only two who were real businesses, the rest were amateurs making like businesses (you know the sort, not paying income tax on sales cos it is only a hobby) and when they asked for business advice and got it, they ran weeping to the moderators. Two more forums I u sed to post in have both turned from lively and informative centres for learning and education in the their subjects into 'look what I just spent a lot of money on' 'ohhh that is fabulous' and one got so dull that no-one has posted anything in a month.
Pricing is one of the hardest parts of selling, Silverlining. do you drive prices down to compete on price? do you go the just a hobby route which means probably undercutting those trying to earn a living, do you claim unique and double the price or do you follow a formula (double it and add 6p) or what... Bearing in mind that you might think that £500 is a reasonable price but if no-one pays it, it probably isn't, not least because you still have the item and no £££ in the bank

I have a pricing formula and operate as a business,I certainly don't undercut but have always struggled with the pricing as so many do. It gets even more confusing and making you doubt yourself when you see so many different pricing levels for things. Pricing alone is a minefield. Looking at various others in my county really opened my eyes to this and I was surprised to find so many different selling avenues and pricing ranges. With my example of a local maker,made earlier, with her star fish studs for £35, she does sell. Another local maker sells necklaces with the same starfish,but larger, and a silver charm or bead or two on the chain with it,for £30. Both sell in different places. But it does make you think about pricing and also from the point of view for a customer. To me from customer point of view, for example, I would certainly think the necklace should be more expensive than the studs. But then, from a designer-maker point of view it naturally makes you question your own prices.

Like jayne, I don't think comments about lack of skill and things being thrown together is particularly friendly and it can be quite disheartening. Everyone started somewhere! Imagine being a newbie and reading that.

As for commenting on pricing and avenues to patstone, I know from other posts that she only just covers costs and that is a shame for anyone who puts their time and skill into something. If there are other potential avenues out there and ways to increase the income then that's all good for sharing, in my mind.