Boring stuff

[Petal]

I agree that we should be able to give constructive criticism when we think it appropriate.

I do stand by what I said though. Bought in bezels etc can be very useful things when you're super busy. Even Andrew Berry uses ready-made components sometimes. Just because you didn't actually make them doesn't mean you couldn't and it's not much different to getting your work cast. When I was learning, I was a bit scornful of cast work, thinking everything had to be made by hand. I think differently now. I'd rather spend my time on the design and finish. Actually, bottom line - I'd rather make a living.

I agree with Carole about buying in components to save time. I make my own when either the quality of bought in stuff is not good, or I want my pieces to look that bit different.
However, things have changed drastically since I joined the forum in 2009, not least this awful recession. I don't have anything like the time I used to have reading and making posts and I'm sure those of us who are trying to earn a living don't have either. I hardly post now, again due to time constraints, but will sometimes comment on others work, who I admire or aspire to when I can. However, others, like Patstone are retired and have a lot more time on their hands, so perhaps expect more of the forum than perhaps it can give? What I would say is those of us who want to post pictures of their work shouldn't feel discouraged from doing so, as we can all learn something.

Boring - maybe.
Very very busy - yes!

Peter - keep up the good work!

[Dennis]

I've just come back to find this. Fair play to Patstone, she has started the best discussion in weeks. Not boring at all, Pat.

[caroleallen]

That's true!

[CJ57]

It reminds me of the debates we used to have on our old forum, I miss that

[ajda]

Fair play to Patstone, she has started the best discussion in weeks. Not boring at all, Pat.

I quite agree. I'd have liked to carry on with it - especially to counter Pearlessence's last, which had me grinding my teeth in frustration - but I think the door has been firmly closed on that "grumbling" part of the debate. (I hesitate to use the word "stifled"!)

Instead, I'd like to pick up on a comment in Peter's first reply to the original post, which is also interesting but might not raise hackles in quite the same way. He talked about underpricing being

crazy for a skilled craft ... craft as in craftsmanship, not craft as in "arts and crafts"

What, really, are the differences between "craft" and "art" and "arts and crafts", who decides, and how?

[Patstone]

If you are making jewellery for a living, and making say 20 of the same thing I would also use bought in components, after all you have to make enough money to live on, What I am talking about is the "one-off" designer item, with a price tag of say £200 and its made of all bought in components. As for learners - do we ever stop learning. I have a "quality control" - my daughter who also makes silver jewellery. I spend hours sanding and polishing and she comes up and says "not good enough". I just dont want standards to slip thats all because now you can buy all the components without needing too many tools or skill to put them together. Enough said, change the topic PLEASE.

[ajda]

Enough said, change the topic PLEASE.

I'm sorry, I thought that's what I was doing... at least trying to steer the topic in a more friendly and neutral/positive direction.

[ps_bond]

What, really, are the differences between "craft" and "art" and "arts and crafts", who decides, and how?

Me
Facetious comment aside, it's subjective (again). "Arts and crafts" means different things to different people; if you go with Ruskin's & Morris' ideals, you have an emphasis on handwork to the seemingly hysterical exclusion of any machine tools; that seems to have been diluted significantly since around the 1960s, with it coming to encompass skills such as gluing bits onto pine cones. Fun when you're a kid, but not really skilled. Look at the lowest common denominator for craft fairs (if you can find any in amongst the prevalent imported tat).

What is art? Argh... Far too much now seems to be the concept being all that matters, with the skill to execute it (craft!) being ignored or outsourced.

[pearlescence]

Yes, Damien Hurst is the clearest example of that Peter - all concept and I know the blokes who do the stone carving for him for example. He doesn't actually lift a finger. just provides sketches. He has the very big house though.

[ajda]

I don't necessarily have a problem with a collaboration between designer and maker to produce a piece of "art" though it might seem a bit unfair for the designer to get all the glory (and money). What about purely conceptual "found art", Duchamp's infamous urinal for example?