Boring stuff

[pearlescence]

I think no-one here will have a problem giving useful feedback and comments - perhaps those who welcome it need to signal same by saying ' this is my first attempt at whatever. It took me ages and I know it isn't perfect, I want to learn -how can I improve...etc etc
what stifles feedback and shuts me down immediately is when someone writes 'I find this thread quite horrible really.'or 'my heart sank a little reading this thread, particularly the first post' because those comments are designed to quash anything remotely un-gushing. I had experience of a forum where someone who became a friend and I were the only two who were real businesses, the rest were amateurs making like businesses (you know the sort, not paying income tax on sales cos it is only a hobby) and when they asked for business advice and got it, they ran weeping to the moderators. Two more forums I u sed to post in have both turned from lively and informative centres for learning and education in the their subjects into 'look what I just spent a lot of money on' 'ohhh that is fabulous' and one got so dull that no-one has posted anything in a month.
Pricing is one of the hardest parts of selling, Silverlining. do you drive prices down to compete on price? do you go the just a hobby route which means probably undercutting those trying to earn a living, do you claim unique and double the price or do you follow a formula (double it and add 6p) or what... Bearing in mind that you might think that £500 is a reasonable price but if no-one pays it, it probably isn't, not least because you still have the item and no £££ in the bank

[jayneharrison]

My post wasn't meant to stifle feedback at all and it wasn't my intention to come across that way, my heart sank when I read it because I thought this was a place for people to discuss making jewellery, tools, techniques, materials etc and share their work. Patstone said that she found the forum boring lately and that's what made me sad, that she feels that way.

I think the mixture of abilities, styles and interests of the users here is fairly diverse compared to some places I have frequented online. I think it would be boring if we were all highly skilled and not learning, developing and evolving as jewellery makers and artists. I "lurked" here for several months before making my first post and in that time have picked up so many tips and tricks, that I am already a better student for it. I find it far from boring and I hope that people continue to share their work.

Patstone's comments about lack of skill and work being "chucked together" by newbies doesn't come across as particularly friendly or welcoming and has me (and most likely any other new posters) wondering if it is aimed at me/then and if so, why did nobody think to offer a little constructive feedback? I certainly would always welcome that and by the same token, would never pay lip service to work that I didn't like or think was well executed. I doubt very much that anyone posts here purely to fish for compliments.

I apologise if I am paraphrasing what's already been said - it's getting late and typing on my phone via the app is not the easiest! I'm also aware that things written online are often misinterpreted so I apologise also to Patstone if I have misunderstood what she was trying to say.

[silverlining]

I think no-one here will have a problem giving useful feedback and comments - perhaps those who welcome it need to signal same by saying ' this is my first attempt at whatever. It took me ages and I know it isn't perfect, I want to learn -how can I improve...etc etc
what stifles feedback and shuts me down immediately is when someone writes 'I find this thread quite horrible really.'or 'my heart sank a little reading this thread, particularly the first post' because those comments are designed to quash anything remotely un-gushing. I had experience of a forum where someone who became a friend and I were the only two who were real businesses, the rest were amateurs making like businesses (you know the sort, not paying income tax on sales cos it is only a hobby) and when they asked for business advice and got it, they ran weeping to the moderators. Two more forums I u sed to post in have both turned from lively and informative centres for learning and education in the their subjects into 'look what I just spent a lot of money on' 'ohhh that is fabulous' and one got so dull that no-one has posted anything in a month.
Pricing is one of the hardest parts of selling, Silverlining. do you drive prices down to compete on price? do you go the just a hobby route which means probably undercutting those trying to earn a living, do you claim unique and double the price or do you follow a formula (double it and add 6p) or what... Bearing in mind that you might think that £500 is a reasonable price but if no-one pays it, it probably isn't, not least because you still have the item and no £££ in the bank

I have a pricing formula and operate as a business,I certainly don't undercut but have always struggled with the pricing as so many do. It gets even more confusing and making you doubt yourself when you see so many different pricing levels for things. Pricing alone is a minefield. Looking at various others in my county really opened my eyes to this and I was surprised to find so many different selling avenues and pricing ranges. With my example of a local maker,made earlier, with her star fish studs for £35, she does sell. Another local maker sells necklaces with the same starfish,but larger, and a silver charm or bead or two on the chain with it,for £30. Both sell in different places. But it does make you think about pricing and also from the point of view for a customer. To me from customer point of view, for example, I would certainly think the necklace should be more expensive than the studs. But then, from a designer-maker point of view it naturally makes you question your own prices.

Like jayne, I don't think comments about lack of skill and things being thrown together is particularly friendly and it can be quite disheartening. Everyone started somewhere! Imagine being a newbie and reading that.

As for commenting on pricing and avenues to patstone, I know from other posts that she only just covers costs and that is a shame for anyone who puts their time and skill into something. If there are other potential avenues out there and ways to increase the income then that's all good for sharing, in my mind.

[Patstone]

Perhaps I was being a bit hard on others, but to my mind there is very little skill in buying bezel cups for instance, quicker if you are mass marketing I suppose, but you cant really say that its hand made if all you do is solder "made to measure" pieces together. The craft show that my daughter and i attend is a seaside town and its almost on the beach at Exmouth, next month I will get some of my "specials" together and double the price and see what happens. Watch this space................

[ajda]

For anyone defending Patstone and criticising those who feel disheartened, I suggest you go back and look at the original post - it is offensive and deserves to be challenged. I'm all for serious debate and constructive criticism, but what use are sweeping statements attacking all "newbies" and every picture that's been uploaded recently? Where are all these boring, "chucked together" pieces showered with gushing praise that are dragging the forum down? I don't see them. But if you do, why not address your criticism directly to them?

On the subject of pricing, I think everyone should feel free to put whatever price they want on their own work. If Faberge was still alive, he could chuck something together and sell it for a king's ransom, while Anon might spend hours on a beautiful bit of handcrafting and sell it for peanuts. You might value your work more highly, but you can't blame Anon for undercutting you. It makes no difference whether you are a professional or a hobbyist - if you can't distinguish yourself from your competitors and justify your pricing to your customers in whatever market you are operating, that's your problem.

[pearlescence]

Sorry ajda, but it is your post which is aimed at stifling criticism and debate by hitting out at someone who has been posting here for five years by labling something which challenges us all to think as offensive. You are the one talking about posts being offensive - so-one else. Patstone did not make sweeping statements criticising all newcomers.What she said was that there are fewer posts on technical matters and more simply uploads of the 'I made this' variety.
Your comments about pricing and Faberge are naive. If Faberge were alive and making he would soon lose his exalted reputation for superb work if he did chuck something together. And you are wrong about undercutting by 'hobbyists' who don't have to pay income tax or corporation tax or VAT or duty or make enough profit on their work to eat. Yes, it is my problem, but the competition between us is on a very uneven field

[caroleallen]

Personally I see nothing wrong with using bezel cups, tubing and such. We all need to make a living and it's foolish to take twice the time to make something that we could "throw together" with bought in components. Most jewellers cut corners sometimes. It's different if you're a hobbyist and are not trying to make money from it.

[Patstone]

My original criticism was not directed at anyone. Standards should be kept up, there is enough imported junk coming into this country. We should pay attention to detail, not just to see what we can get away with. For the newbies who are trying to make lovely jewellery, keep going, but make the skills like making the stone settings yourself a priority, not just buying them in because its easier. I know mine is just a hobby so I have more time, but the only thing that I buy is silver sheet and wire and fine necklace chain, but if I had to make a living at it, my outlook would probably be different. Please don't anyone take offence at my comments, it wasnt meant to offend.

[Goldsmith]

Just to add my opinion, don't rubbish Pat for saying what she thinks, she has a right to share her views. As an old trade worker I must admit that the quality of some of the popular jewellery items offered for sale these days is far below that which I would have been allowed to produce as a 15 year old apprentice. As for pricing I could not compete with the costs of current sales, way back when I started working in this trade in 1961, the cheapest item we made in our workshop had a trade cost of £35 from workshop to the retailer, and this price was 3 times a craftsman's weekly wage, and 9 times my wage.

One other fact for ajda, Carl Faberge never made a thing in his lifetime, every item marked and listed as Faberge was made by many unknown goldsmiths, enamellers, silversmiths and jewellers etc employed by Faberge. Just like history will state that most of my work will have been made by Asprey, Garrard, Kutchinsky and Cartier, as it has their hallmarks on the items.

Now let's move on from all this grumbling.

James

[Patstone]

I quite agree. I just don't want standards to slip as they so easily can. There is very little skill required to buy prefabricated stuff and either glue or solder it together.