Goldsmith or Silversmith

[Patstone]

I attended a craft show last weekend and spoke to a lady who said she was a silversmith too. She actually bought gold and mainly silver jewellery and took it apart and re-crafted it into something else. Surely if the item was secondhand and had a hallmark originally what happens if its over the 7.78 grams allowed, does it have to be re-hallmarked. I have an identity bracelet which my mum gave me for my 21st and I was wondering about making it into a hammered pendant, it is quite a heavy piece, but it could be made nice with perhaps a small stone in it, I dont want to sell it but if I did, what are the rules.
Also...... I make jewellery out of sheet silver and silver wire, pierce, drill and solder into rings, pendants etc am I a silversmith or goldsmith. It was an ongoing discussion as someone said silversmiths make things like cutlery, whereas goldsmiths make jewellery.

[SteveLAO]

Going back into history, I understand the term "Goldsmith" was a generic term and covered anyone who worked in any precious metals (In those days, gold and silver) which is why we have a Worshipful Company of Goldsmiths, and not a Worshipful Company of Silversmiths as well! These days, the description is a bit more vague but my understanding is a goldsmith is generally involved in making jewellery, whereas a silversmith is generally involved in making large items such as bowls, plates, cutlery and so on. Both need to be working in precious metals, otherwise they would be called metalsmiths?

Regarding your lady at a craft show, if she is reworking already hallmarked items into something else then she is contravening hallmarking regulations - and the same would go for you and your id bracelet (assuming that you want to sell it!!)

If you want the legalese....here you are from the hallmarking act which says that you are not allowed to:

1.Make an addition, alteration or repair to an article bearing approved hallmarks, except in accordance with the written consent of an assay office.

2.Remove, alter, transpose or deface any hallmark struck on an article, except in accordance with the written consent of an assay office.

so if you wanted to play around with already hallmarked articles it would have to come back to us, and we would cross out the old mark and then treat is at unhallmarked and process it accordingly.

[pearlescence]

Well, you learn stuff every day. Thanks Steve, you fountain of information you!
Out of interest, how often does stuff arrive for de-hallmarking? Is there a form (hallnote for marking, perhaps backporchnote for de-marking?)

[SteveLAO]

Sadly not nearly as often as they should! ( Don't get me started, for example on those silver rings and bangles that have been made out of old spoons and sugar tongs!!! ) I think a lot of it is down to ignorance....they genuinely don't know they are contravening the act! It's not really an excuse though!

[pearlescence]

So...if something - say a ring - goes for melt should that visit you first for de-hallmarking, since it is going to go into a new ingot or whatever?

[Aurarius]

so if you wanted to play around with already hallmarked articles it would have to come back to us, and we would cross out the old mark and then treat is at unhallmarked and process it accordingly.

Just out of interest, how would you go about crossing out deeply punched marks on the shank of a fairly thin eternity ring, say? If you have to grind off the entire mark this might reduce the thickness of the shank considerably at that point, and then the whole shank in that area would have to be reduced to the same thickness by the jeweller so that no obvious concavity remains.

The least damaging solution I can think of would be for the original punch marks to be weld-filled, and then for you to put new punch marks in over the top. Is weld-filling something you would advise customers to do in these circumstances? If they don't do this will you just grind off the old marks and leave it up to them how they resolve the concavity you've put in the ring shank? Resolving that problem would be particularly difficult for them if you put the new mark in next to where you've just ground off the old one, because then it would be virtually impossible for the jeweller to remove material around the concavity where the old marks used to be without removing the new hallmark as well.

Maybe you adopt a different approach I haven't thought of.

[Wallace]

back on another forum you advised about a certificate Steve, does this still apply?

oh - what does a removed hallmark look like? Attachment 7885

this was done at London, as BAO refused to delete it, deferring it to the original AO at Sheffield!!

[Tabby66]

Going back into history, I understand the term "Goldsmith" was a generic term and covered anyone who worked in any precious metals (In those days, gold and silver) which is why we have a Worshipful Company of Goldsmiths, and not a Worshipful Company of Silversmiths as well! These days, the description is a bit more vague but my understanding is a goldsmith is generally involved in making jewellery, whereas a silversmith is generally involved in making large items such as bowls, plates, cutlery and so on. Both need to be working in precious metals, otherwise they would be called metalsmiths?

That's my understanding too Steve, though I guess that some would argue about the amount and type of training/education/apprencticeship required for each.

[Goldsmith]

To follow of to what Steve said, in my days of apprenticeships each skill of the trade had it's own title. My Goldsmiths Company Indentured apprenticeship and freedom papers call me a goldsmith. I have friends who served their apprenticeships in the same period as me and on their papers, they have terms such as, engraver, smallworker, diamond mounter, diamond setter, polisher, electro plater, silver cutler, watchmaker, silver caster, enameller, engine turner, silversmith and goldsmith.

In the jewellery trade, there were modelmakers who carved the wax models, casters who cast the waxes into items, mounters who made unique un cast pieces and also cut the holes for the stones, setters who set the stones then polishers and electroplaters who finished the piece.

Sorry to waffle on, but I was luck enough to have worked in a period when there were a lot of trade companies making gold an silver stuff. Sadly there are not many opportunities these days for youngsters to become apprentices.

James

[SteveLAO]

pearlescence - if it goes for melt then there is no issue, as clearly you would not be able to resell the article!
aurarius - we would be looking to remove the hallmark on your thin eternity ring because you would be looking to alter, amend or add to the piece I guess? In which case I would imagine if the shank was so thin you would be looking to re shank, in which case you wouldn't have an issue with us crossing out, but I do take your point and on delicate items we would use a scorper and manually obliterate each shield. Originally this was done in all circumstances, but many people thought that we were also obliterating the provenance, so we started putting crosses through the marks to show that although they should be ignored, you can still see the history behind the original piece.
Wallace - yes you're absolutely correct. This is "the written consent of an assay office" piece. If you wanted to add to an already hallmarked item (like the spoon/ring conversions) then you can send it in to us and we will issue you with a change of use certificate after re-examining the item. Then you can sell it legally.
here is an image of a crossed out hallmark, along with our reference number. The reference number links to our file about the article which lists the reasons why the action was taken.
Goldsmith - yes you're right, and going back into history even "silversmiths" were sub divided into the items that they made. For example, you could be called a "spoonmaker"!