Hallmarking

[medusa]

The whole point of the hallmark, apart from the independent guarantee of fineness, is traceability....not only of the person involved in making/commissioning the piece, but also of the assay office who carried out the testing. I'm not sure why, having made an item, you would want some other company or individual to take the credit for your work, and have the possibility of losing out on further commissions because you cannot be traced through the sponsor's mark?
In the meantime, thanks for highlighting this website....this is pretty much what cookson's were doing before they were (i believe) asked to stop. I'll let you know.....

I didn't realise this was illegal, but apart from the sponsor/maker's traceability issue, I don't get why it would be? The assay mark is still there so you know it is what it says it is and where it was assayed. I've actually tried tracing makers via the hallmark in the past and drawn a blank because the records don't seem to be publicly available, so I think that is a bit of a null point.

If the hallmarking council wants to increase take up of hallmarking, then it seems counterintuitive to place obstacles in the way of people who might only be producing a few pieces a year. I'm pretty sure there are probably hundreds if not thousands of makers out there who, whilst they are not prepared to make the commitment and expense of registering their own marks, would use such a service. I know three people locally making and selling the odd item in gold and silver which they don't get assayed because they do not consider it worth the expense. I don't agree with them and get everything, even small items marked, but I can see their point.

I am also in Teesside and had a look at this site for interest sake. Something did catch my eye though... Is it really that expensive to have an item laser-marked?

The page has gone now, but I figured the prices were based on the cost of sending in a single item, plus postage, plus profit and therefore not that bad. It costs me about £30 for a single item to be hallmarked. I've noticed pricing is no longer available on BAO site, but as I recall laser marking was double the cost of regular hallmarking plus set up cost.

[SteveLAO]

Sponsor's marks, certainly in London, are all traceable, (with the exception of some very early ones which were lost in a fire at the hall in the 1600s) - that's the whole point of them! The records are publicly available through books such as Jackson's or Grimwade's, and we offer a telephone identification service via our library who holds details of all the London sponsor's marks. I'm sure the other offices also offer a similar service.

Whether or not people think it is or isn't worth the expense the fact remains that it's the law, and breaches of the hallmarking act can land you in jail! I don't think it's a case of putting obstacles in people's way, everyone is in the same boat, and if you do away with registering you do away with the sponsor's mark, which was, after the King's mark, the very first part of what is the complete hallmark, introduced back in 1363. It is a way of identifying who made the item, and was the very first form of consumer protection. It of course also identifies famous makers which greatly affects the value of items. To make something and then put someone else's maker's mark was considered to be defrauding the buyer. The term was changed to "sponsor's mark" to allow (retail) companies to put their mark on items made by subcontractors - not to allow manufactures who are already registered to offer hallmarking services to anyone and cash in on it by taking a charge.

A single item hallmarked at London will cost you £12.25 (£10 minimum charge plus 20p sponsor's mark plus VAT) plus postage. We don't charge a set up fee for laser hallmarking - set up is all included when you register. This gentleman was charging double this!

[CJ57]

The minimum charge at Edinburgh is 12.50 for up to 2 items and then another 2 grades after that. I paid a set up cost of £20 for my laser mark a few months ago but I don't know if I'd been registering for the first time if that's the case as I've been registered for ever! A laser mark costs an extra 22p per piece on top of normal charges

[enigma]

It works out at a lot more than that for me at Birmingham.
Initial set up charge was what, £50 ? I think
Laser marking was Im sure about the same again.
Then a single item actually costs me just over £30 by the time they have added on postage/repacking ( even if supplied with a box and addressed envelope so all they need do is put it in the box) and VAT.
My last bill in front of me was for 1 9ct gold ring and cost £31.98 for standard service and standard postage.

Im all in favour of it actually but it is a lot for those who make bespoke items in silver especially.

[medusa]

Sponsor's marks, certainly in London, are all traceable, (with the exception of some very early ones which were lost in a fire at the hall in the 1600s) - that's the whole point of them! The records are publicly available through books such as Jackson's or Grimwade's, and we offer a telephone identification service via our library who holds details of all the London sponsor's marks. I'm sure the other offices also offer a similar service.

Whether or not people think it is or isn't worth the expense the fact remains that it's the law, and breaches of the hallmarking act can land you in jail! I don't think it's a case of putting obstacles in people's way, everyone is in the same boat, and if you do away with registering you do away with the sponsor's mark, which was, after the King's mark, the very first part of what is the complete hallmark, introduced back in 1363. It is a way of identifying who made the item, and was the very first form of consumer protection. It of course also identifies famous makers which greatly affects the value of items. To make something and then put someone else's maker's mark was considered to be defrauding the buyer. The term was changed to "sponsor's mark" to allow (retail) companies to put their mark on items made by subcontractors - not to allow manufactures who are already registered to offer hallmarking services to anyone and cash in on it by taking a charge.

A single item hallmarked at London will cost you £12.25 (£10 minimum charge plus 20p sponsor's mark plus VAT) plus postage. We don't charge a set up fee for laser hallmarking - set up is all included when you register. This gentleman was charging double this!

Well the gentleman might have been using BAO and not London, but even so, adding on two lots of postage and handling fees would make it over twenty quid, so they were not really making much profit.

Just because something is against the law, doesn't mean people won't do it nor that authorities will act to stop it as you can see by the huge amount of gold and silver jewellery sold on ebay which is unhallmarked. Making it easier to do the right thing is, I think a good thing.

Given that we no longer actually have maker's marks, the traceability is now moot. I don't see why it is an issue to extend sponsor marks to include companies offering to act as an intermediary. As long as the company who is registered clearly states that they are acting in this way, I don't think it is much of an issue. Consumers are still being protected by the assay mark and it means more items would get assayed. If Hallmarking can adapt to encompass the marking of mass-produced subcontracted work, why not adapt to encompass what would be sponsor subcontractors? I see no difference morally or ethically between something made in an asian sweatshop carrying the Elizabeth Duke sponsor's mark and something made by a hobbyist in St Mawes carrying Mr Teeside sponsor's mark.

Maybe this idea is too radical and a step too far, but you know what they say, adapt or die and given the attempts to abolish assay offices completely, this might be worth considering.

[SteveLAO]

I think the difference is that Elizabeth Duke doesn't make things themselves and is just a retailer so there can be no confusion, whereas the other gentleman made his own stuff and was effectively passing off other people's work as his own by applying his own mark to their work. A subtle difference you may think, and one which you may or may not consider to be a big deal...but nevertheless.....

"Just because something is against the law, doesn't mean people won't do it".......hmmmmm not sure how far you want to go with this!!!!!

[SteveLAO]

.....and ED are not double charging the customer for the hall marking part of the cost of the item.

In any case we're probably losing the thread of this debate which essentially is that there are people out there who would rather face fines, confiscation of their items and possible jail with a criminal record thrown in all because they consider a registration fee of less than 2p a day to be too expensive......aside from the fact that it's the law anyway.....

I'm sorry if I'm sounding off a bit, but regrettably until there is a change in the law, you need to abide by it.....99.9 percent of us do so why not everyone? I'm not sure that the best way to deal with a law that you don't like very much is to abolish it altogether.....maybe when the hall marking council update the act there will be changes, but until then......

[CJ57]

Well apart from it being legal, I like having my own mark I also use the fact that it's the only Scottish one as a selling point. I know it's an extra cost but it isn't as if it's a surprise we don't know about. I would have liked to change the shape of my lettering as I'm having to renew my punches but that would have cost me £72 as a new registration on top of the punch costs so will keep the lettering I've got! The price just has to be factored in with everything else and if it's a commission they are told unless they are able to wait that there will be a hallmarking cost included in the price.

I would be sad if they did away with it, I think it makes us stand out against the rest for quality and it makes me at least keep my standards up

[medusa]

I think the difference is that Elizabeth Duke doesn't make things themselves and is just a retailer so there can be no confusion, whereas the other gentleman made his own stuff and was effectively passing off other people's work as his own by applying his own mark to their work. A subtle difference you may think, and one which you may or may not consider to be a big deal...but nevertheless.....

He was offering a service and unless you know otherwise, he wasn't passing other's work off as his own. My suggestion was that a company should be allowed to register in order to offer the same service with no confusion that they are only offering to act as a hallmarking intermediary. Makers can stick their own marks on if they want anyway. The point I'm making is that the BHC needs to be adaptable and responsive to the public's needs.

"Just because something is against the law, doesn't mean people won't do it".......hmmmmm not sure how far you want to go with this!!!!!

All the way, baby!

Alcohol was prohibited in the USA and the law changed. Cannabis is now legal in many places in the world including the USA. whispers are that there will be a push to make it legal in the UK before long. It was illegal to carry out homosexual acts and the law changed (including for heterosexual couples!). You aren't allowed to beat your wife or children (or dogs), but people do and in some places it's still considered acceptable. There are so many laws which are either unenforceable or stupid or outdated, it beggars belief.

Laws against causing bodily harm to a living thing are obviously a good thing and ought to remain so we can prosecute people if they are caught, but this law of having to be personally registered and not being able to use a third party for assaying serves no useful purpose. The assay office loses money and the end consumer has no guarantee of the metal.

I'm assuming that at some point, the only person who could register for a makers mark with an assay office had to be the actual maker? But those pesky big companies kept sending in stuff they hadn't made themselves and BHC changed the rules, so they can change again.

As it is, there is tons of imported stuff sold in the uk which doesn't have hallmarks. It's almost like an unstoppable tide and to place obstacles in the way of small scale makers who ~might~ do the right thing, but it's not worth the cost to them, strikes me as unreasonable and very very shortsighted.

I'm guessing we all remember this:http://www.theassayoffice.co.uk/surv...-hallmark.html

How long before the next attack? The mass-producers see no value in hallmarking and consider it a bureaucratic hurdle to selling in the UK. Safe to say they will continue to lobby government to scrap it. Almost all the comments I read in support of hallmarking on the red tape challenge were from small scale makers and manufacturers. Big corporations don't care. Making assaying available to a wider number of smaller makers strikes me as sensible to ensure long term survival.

ETA:

..99.9 percent of us do so why not everyone? I'm not sure that the best way to deal with a law that you don't like very much is to abolish it altogether.....maybe when the hall marking council update the act there will be changes, but until then......

ummm but 99% don't. that's the problem and the point of the thread was why can there not be a change in the rules to allow third party assaying? Though I expect the OP probably won't be back!

[caroleallen]

I'm sure some people do get done for not hallmarking but I'm certain a lot of people get away with it. I've done shows run by our local Trading Standards department for about 15 years and never once have they checked whether my work is hallmarked. I hasten to add that I always operate within the law!