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Hello all
I'm a hobbyist silversmith, only making items that fall within the exemption weights for sale.
However, for work, I am making a silver "trophy" which is going to be a little heavier than the exemption weight.
My question is, does the item still need hallmarking if it technically isn't being sold? It's a prize, so in theory the winner has paid for it through hard work, but no cash is exchanging hands.
Hi Chris,
I would say that it is not obligatory to hallmark this trophy, but the hallmark would greatly enhance its perceived value. So much so, that without it the recipient might well wonder whether he has been given a cheapo plated job. Dennis.
You can always ask someone with a registration to put it through for you?
Ah, if only Steve were here...I seem to remember that items can be assayed and marked by the assay office itself, no sponsor mark
I am fairly sure that a registered sponsor cannot put someone else's work through as their own - nothing to prevent you physically doing this but I think it is actually illegal. There is a thread somewhere in this forum about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pearlescence
I think you are wrong Barry, in all of my career as a goldsmith, with my own registered hallmark, almost 98% of my work over my career has had other's hallmarks on it. When you work within the trade and the likes of Asprey, Garrard, Cartier and Kutchinsky buy your work for resale, they expect to have their own company hallmark on the finished piece and not the mark of the craftsman who made the piece. The hallmark guarantees the quality of the metals but not the manufacturer. Not much of what the main names sell was actually made by their own craftsmen. When I watch the antiques programs on TV, I often think it would be nice if the actual makers ever got credit from the experts. This was one reason why I had a book of my work printed in 2009 so that some may know of my work in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryM
James
James Miller FIPG.
James, You certainly know a lot more about this than I do and I am sure that the examples you mentioned are correct. I just seem to remember that places like Cooksons and others used to offer a hallmarking service where you could send your work to them and they would have it hallmarked under their sponsor mark and then return them to you (at a charge of course). This was stopped as (I thought) it broke the hallmarking regulations? Do you know the background to this?
I don't know about the Cooksons offering that service, but I do know that if you just send items to the London Assay office they will assay and hallmark it with the LAO mark. I just know that loads of my pieces will go down in history as being made by Asprey as it has their hallmarks on it as they were commissioned or bought by them and sold in their shops around the world.
I made this piece back in 1981.
Attachment 8243
James
I'm a student at Sheffield College (pretty much next door to the assay office) and we can send work in through the college to be assayed and marked without needing our own sponsor mark.
When I was at Edinburgh College of Art all the pieces I made during that time were hallmarked with the ECA mark tooQuote:
Originally Posted by jayneharrison
I know of people who have, allegedly, sent items to an assay office recently to be marked when they don't have their own mark. Not sure what law it would break, anyway.
It's called a sponsor mark, not a maker's mark
it can also be referred to as the maker's mark
https://assayofficebirmingham.com/he...-of-a-hallmark
From the Edinburgh Assay Office guidelines.
The Sponsor’s or Maker’s Mark
This indicates the maker or sponsor of the article. In the UK this mark consists of at least two letters within a shield. No two marks are the same.
James - I have found the thread where this was discussed - HEREQuote:
Originally Posted by Goldsmith
Barry, I saw that thread but didn't want to get involved. I think it would be great if it was the law that states the maker's mark should be on every hallmarked piece as Steve seemed to suggest, but we all know this is not true. Go to any high street jeweller and you will see their hallmark on the pieces they sell, do you actually believe they make the pieces. Ask yourself why the London Assay Office have a branch for collecting work for assay at Heathrow airport, most of the jewellery sold on the high street is made abroad these days, imported from the manufacturers in India or Thailand, then hallmarked in London with the shop's hallmark. I have a friend who owns a few jewellery shops and he can buy finished diamond set rings from Thailand for a cost that is less than the cost of just buying the gold and diamonds would be in the UK, without any manufacturing cost, so who can compete with that, and also the rings he buys all get hallmarked with his own registered hallmark as he is the commissioner of the pieces.
As I said before the likes of Garrard, who have not had their own workshops since 1953, so anything that has a Garrard hallmark on it, dated after then was not actually made by Garrard. The only workshop staff employed by Garrard do stock cleaning and restorations. It's the same at Asprey in recent years.
I have never in my life been employed at Asprey, but a friend of mine sent me this old Asprey Fifth Avenue catalogue that has a photo of me on it's second page. I was making an egg that Asprey purchased from my employer and then resold as their own manufacture complete with an Asprey Hallmark on it.
Attachment 8246Attachment 8247
James
I think Steve covered this in the thread, that a Retailer as the sponsor, rather than a manufacturer, can put their mark on items made by their contractors.
What I said was illegal was someone offering a service to use their registration to hallmark another persons else's items which are then returned to them for sale.
This is not what retailers do.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes I see that Barry, I didn't know about Cookson's offer of this service.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryM
Cookson and all the other companies offer us already hallmarked ring shanks for us to resell if we so wish. We would be reselling rings as our own but not made by us or having our makers mark
Would they not have to be re-assayed if anything done to them?
So it would be illegal for me to send a piece made by a friend, who isn't registered with an assay office, to be hallmarked with my mark? I'm not fully understanding why that would be illegal because surely the hallmark is assurance of the metal quality rather than anything to do with the maker of the piece? Or am I missing something?
Just to add....this is just a scenario, I've not actually done this in case anyone was going to call me a lawbreaker :)
I have no idea about the details of hallmarking legalities, I was just reiterating what Steve said in his post as the local expert on hallmarking.
This is all I can find in the Edinburgh notes WendyQuote:
Originally Posted by pearlescence
Making an alteration to a hallmarked article
It is possible to make an alteration to a hallmarked article, subject to the following conditions:
• Thealteredarticlemustbeofthesamecharacterandpurpos eastheoriginal (e.g. a spoon must not become a fork).
• Theadditionmustbeofthesamestandardasthearticletowh ichitisbeingadded.
• Theweightoftheadditionmustbenoheavierthan0.5gramsi nplatinum, 1 gram in gold, 1 gram in palladium, and 7.78 grams in silver.
• Theadditionmustnotbegreaterthan50%ofthearticle’sto talweight.
• Anyotheralterationsmustbere-submittedtoanAssayOffice.
I see Edinburgh also has a Heathrow office to take in bulk orders from overseas, hallmark them in the uk and then post them off elsewhere as James has mentioned
Right, I thought you said in an earlier post that it was illegal. I know of people who do this. Not entirely sure how anyone would know anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryM
Surely if Cooksons or anyone else is selling eg a ring shank or a chain as silver or gold it needs to be hallmarked unless below weight because it's a finished (apart from the stone or stones, maybe?) item.
Hi Caroline
If you sell a plain ring shank as is, no probs, but if you add- eg -a bezel and a stone you are clearly altering it. The exemption is for sizing and stuff like that.
Oh London Assay Office...you CHUMPS
I suggest you re-read what I actually said in post #4.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaisyDaisy
Could be applied to so many other laws but breaking it is breaking it whether anyone 'knows' or not, - as one might discover if one was found out.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaisyDaisy
Just FYI..... the maker's mark is also referred to as the sponsor's mark as it can indicate either who made the piece, or who commissioned the piece. As previously mentioned, most jewellery is made overseas and then marked in the UK. In the case of someone already registered with an assay offices taking a commission from a retailer who is also registered, the retailer can have his sponsor mark applied despite the fact he hasn't actually made the piece. The manufacturer would send in the item for assay, and have the retailer's sponsor mark applied instead of his own. (The retailer needs to give their authorisation to do so first of course!) Actually, if you like, more than one sponsor mark can be applied! This is sometimes done on a big commission where multiple manufacturers are involved!
Regarding the initial question of the silver trophy being given as a prize - the law does state that it's during the course of a trade or business. If you are charging for the commission and you wish to call it silver you will need to have it marked. If you're doing it for free and gifting it, then it doesn't matter, as their is neither a trade, nor business transaction committed. It's a bit like making stuff for family and friends for presents.....there is no need to in those cases.
(Sorry....busy job hunting....but old habits die hard!!)
You can see how we have got ourselves into a twist already Steve. Dennis.
hahahaha...maybe start a petition?
And on that note I'll be bowing out of this thread. I'm neither looking for nor wanting confrontation with anyone. All I was looking for was confirmation if it is in fact illegal as I know some people (who aren't registered with an assay office) in a FB jewellery group do on the odd occasion ask for people who are registered to get their makes hallmarked.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryM
In fact, I've changed my mind and I am coming back to this because, BarryM, I feel your comment was rude and uncalled for. I've read back through posts and you do say it's illegal so I'm not entirely sure what exactly you're expecting me to re-read.
Hi
Whilst I appreciate the depth of passion our industry garners, I do feel we should we should all demonstrate respect and civility towards each other at all times please, especially in posts where we might have differing views.
Kind regards
Rob