Hydraulic forming presses in Europe?

Hello all,

Complete newbie here.

I've been Googling a lot lately for anybody in this country (or even Europe) who makes affordable hydraulic forming presses...but all the stuff available on the Internet comes from America!
Also, there are various other products I'd like to buy - but nobody seems to sell them in the UK. It's frustrating in the extreme.

My question to you all (and I'm surprised nobody else seems to be asking this) - does anybody know where I can buy a small hydraulic forming press in the UK? What I'm looking for is something simple, operated with a bottle jack.

Hint to Cookson: please start selling 'em!

Thanks very much for any replies.

Dave Willis

I didn't have any luck either. I ended up buying the magnificent Bonny Doon. Rio Grande and Bonny Doon won't allow anyone else to stock them.

I'd say that was a gap in the market - a business opportunity for any local engineering company.

Bonny Doon gear is really good, but I don't think I can afford one right now - certainly not the cost of importing one.

If you can find a small engineering workshop willing to make a version, with a bought in bottle jack, it need not break the bank. I did so fifteen years ago and I could not visualise life without it, not only for forming, but also for flattening things without marking them as you would with a hammer.

Mind you, they have closed down since, so maybe they didn't charge enough. If you look at ' Hydraulic Die Forming For Jewelers & Metalsmiths ', by Susan Kingsley, she also describes how to make your own without special skills. Dennis.

I'm not sure I understand what you are referring too, but if it's one of these
They are available everywhere, ebay is full of them, often very cheap. Sealey, Clarke, Draper all have a version.
Unless you mean the dies and other bits?

Yes, I've been looking at those, but even the bench versions are huge. I'm concerned that I may not be able to lift one all by myself. If I bought one of those, I'd probably have to do a bit of adaptation work on it to make it usable for jewellery work.

Anybody out there using one of these? I'd be interested in knowing if they're any good for this purpose.

Thanks for the replies so far.

Although they are currently out of stock, Cookson Dental sell this Sirio "P400 Hydraulic Press - ZHP 1011
The Sirio P400 hydraulic press is used by the dental technician to mould mobile prosthesis. ". I have one that I got on eBay a few years ago and I've used it for small pressings. Still got the dies from Rio Grande though (at vast expense!)
Lorraine

Is that Sirio press any good?
I notice that HS Walsh is selling them, but they're pretty expensive.

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Originally Posted by Dave Willis

Is that Sirio press any good?
I notice that HS Walsh is selling them, but they're pretty expensive.

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Milnes Brothers are a firm that service and re-condition equipment for dental technicians. They have one for £360, but I think that will be without VAT. http://www.milnesbros.com/page2.htm.

It is listed under the heading: FLASKS, CLAMPS AND PRESSES. Dennis.

Thanks!
The Sirio looks very slick but the platen size isn't big enough for some of the things I want to make.

I quite like the look of the Potter USA press...I might just design my own version and get a local welder to make me one...

I can't believe nobody supplies or makes these presses in the UK. We really are quite deprived here in this country.

I'm now thinking of buying one of these:

http://www.sgs-engineering.com/hydra...ydraulic-press

When I get it, I'll have to get a welder to fabricate a platform so I can attach metal platens.

I've just found this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jewellery-...item4d0cad4ec7 on eBay!

Yes, I found that too a while back. Looks good.

Look at the price! :-O

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Originally Posted by Dave Willis

Yes, I found that too a while back. Looks good.

Look at the price! :-O

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Why can't anyone do them in the UK for the sort of price that you can get them in the US?

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Originally Posted by lorraineflee

Why can't anyone do them in the UK for the sort of price that you can get them in the US?

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Yes, I think it wouldn't be that difficult.

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Yes, I think it wouldn't be that difficult.

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It wouldn't be,

£50 worth of laser cut 20mm plate (hot rolled would do it) (Even plasma cut would be fine)
£10 worth of fixings (screws / bolts etc)
£99 Sealey SJ50 bottle jack
£10 Powder Coating

Time to build 90 Minutes max.

£799!! errr not in this lifetime :)

best wishes

Dave

I think the only thing I'd alter on that would be to put in a hydraulic hand pump/ram/gauge combo over the bottle jack.

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Originally Posted by Exsecratio

It wouldn't be,

£50 worth of laser cut 20mm plate (hot rolled would do it) (Even plasma cut would be fine)
£10 worth of fixings (screws / bolts etc)
£99 Sealey SJ50 bottle jack
£10 Powder Coating

Time to build 90 Minutes max.

£799!! errr not in this lifetime :)

best wishes

Dave

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When are you planning to start supplying? Can I be your first customer?????

Hi Lorraine :)

I wasn't planning on making them I just looked at the steel stockist prices and the laser time to cut them :) not a hard item to make at all, more like a Lego kit of pieces really. If anybody wants to make them I can laser cut the plate if they need it or I can post the DXF files for a design and they can get them made anywhere?

Hi Peter,

Would be a problem, the hydrostatic test would have to be re-certified for the components, that will be the main reason the manufacturer hasn't changed anything I would think.

I used to have a 200 tonne press used for swaging barrels for rifles, it's fun being able to treat solid metals like playdough :)

best wishes

Dave

Sorry, probably not being clear. Enerpac *instead* of the bottle jack... Having a slightly remote power pack with the ability to to swap out for a powered one at a later date appeals.

For the jewellery lot, 20 ton is the usual upper limit (although I know Bonny Doon do a 50T). More power is always nice, but it has its hazards.

Was that swaging full-length in one go? Not seen that - I know button rifling & hammer forged, but that sounds interesting. And yes, plastic deformation of metals is fun.

My Bonny Doon is 20 ton and I've not yet used it to its full extent. I think I'd be a bit scared.

20T wouldn't be too hard to do and would allow a reduction of the plate to 16mm thickness :) (that would get the price down quite a bit)

Ahh I see what you mean Peter,remote would work from an enerpac but I'd guess it would be expensive to do or upgrade.

I used to Polygonal rifle barrels from round blanks in one hit and swage chambers, it worked quite well but was limited to big calibres like the FatMax,throat erosion was always a problem even then (the actual FatMax didn't come out till Barnes did them a few years later). It was also used for forming dies so I could do big cases at the same time (much of the M110 casings billet supplies were steel) drawing that down was the main reason for the big press pressures.
These days I take it a lot easier and mostly produce gaming accessories through the company and contract engraving / cutting.

best wishes

Dave

I just bought one of these:

http://www.sgs-engineering.com/hydra...ydraulic-press

When I get round to re-engineering it and using it for jewellery making, I'll share some photos and a detailed description of how I set it up for jewellery work.

I may even make a Youtube video, so you can all have a go.

This British-made press cost me just £208, compared with approximately £600 (at least) for a press from the US.

It's an imperfect solution, but it should get me started.

It looks like a great buy Dave. All you need now is some large blocks to squash things between. I have a number to almost fill the gap, because I understand that the less you have to pump it the better it will perform in the long term. Dennis.

Yeah, it has a big gap between platens, so I might experiment with some wood or delrin blocks (or something else that might be suitable). My Dad has some blocks of boxwood and lignum vitae that might do the trick.
It's hand operated, so working with it will be a little slow until I can afford to buy a suitable compressor. I'm just dabbling at the moment, so it'll be a while before I spend more money.

Mine's got 2 big blocks of acrylic which fill the gap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Exsecratio

It wouldn't be,

£50 worth of laser cut 20mm plate (hot rolled would do it) (Even plasma cut would be fine)
£10 worth of fixings (screws / bolts etc)
£99 Sealey SJ50 bottle jack
£10 Powder Coating

Time to build 90 Minutes max.

£799!! errr not in this lifetime :)

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Dusting this off... If I were to sort out a flat-pack kit for a Bonny Doon compatible press that required a competent welder to make 6 fillet welds as the worst part of assembly, would there be any interest? I'm thinking in terms of the press frame + plattens, no fixings, power source or tooling.

It's hypothetical at the moment, partway through doing stress & strain calcs to check sizes.

I'd be interested Peter.

I think that would go down well - I think there is a big gap in the market here.
You might sell a few hundred.
Too late for me though, as I have just bought a garage press.

OK, some design considerations:

250mm between plattens.
Total cost to user of < £500 + VAT (which means I'll need to get some representative quotes for the welding). Why £500? Cos that's what it costs to buy & ship a Potter bolt together, and if it ends up more expensive than that then there's not much point.
150mm x 150mm platten surfaces.
Base and upright in 13mm mild (it's bound to end up looking a bit like a Potter as a result, although I have a few ideas on making the assembly easier).
Top platten drilled with 3 11/32" holes per Kingsley, although I need to do some more digging to check as it sounds as though they're used with bolts rather than pins, which would mean they'd need to be threaded. *** OK, looks like these are actually 5/16" threaded - UNC?
25T rated (with a huge safety margin factored in, including not counting the first 12mm of each weld for calculations)

I'm not looking to make hundreds, nor to keep stocks - just to be able to have small batches made up relatively quickly in the UK.

As well as doing the drawings & calcs, I need to get a handle on designing for cutting like this - whether I should relieve internal corners that I want sqare, that kind of thing. The ideal is to keep it to one operation per metal thickness if possible - no machining other than cutting, no drilling, no fettling (Apparently a bit of tapping, so may need to drill too)

Using some back-of-envelope calcs for the amount of steel needed, I'm not coming anywhere near the £50 mark, and that's before cutting. Dave - any input? I'm looking at Parkers pricing on about 0.45m^2 of suitable hot-rolled per press.

A Potter USA-style press would definitely be the most efficient design - fewer parts, less welding and much better looks (I think).
If it costs you less than £50 for the steel, that sounds good.
Sorry, I don't know where the cheapest steel sheet can be bought. Hot-rolled steel would be better than just steel - denser and better finish. Potter's presses use 2 cm thick steel.
I guess you could create a drawing in Corel Draw (or Illustrator, or Inkscape) - 2D drawings should be all that are needed to create a file for a laser cutter.
Just a suggestion, the platens could be bought in as 18mm x 150 mm x 150 mm planishing blocks (I bought 2 from Cousins UK for £19 each). These are hardened steel and have polished faces - ideal for use as platens. As with Potter, these could be held in position with a few neodymium magnets.
If you make it Bonny Doon tool-compatible, that would be great! :-)

Edit: Oh yeah...no need to paint it. Potter's cheapest self-assembly model comes unpainted.

Further edit: See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j2qwZOm-8o for details of Potter's construction.

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Originally Posted by Dave Willis

A Potter USA-style press would definitely be the most efficient design - fewer parts, less welding and much better looks (I think).
If it costs you less than £50 for the steel, that sounds good.

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Ah. No, I was referring to the claim of it being £50 of laser cut steel and I can't get that low.

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Sorry, I don't know where the cheapest steel sheet can be bought. Hot-rolled steel would be better than just steel - denser and better finish. Potter's presses use 2 cm thick steel.

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*Pretty* sure he's using 1/2".

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I guess you could create a drawing in Corel Draw (or Illustrator, or Inkscape) - 2D drawings should be all that are needed to create a file for a laser cutter.

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...But a 3d model would give me the lazy option on finite element analysis...

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Just a suggestion, the platens could be bought in as 18mm x 150 mm x 150 mm planishing blocks (I bought 2 from Cousins UK for £19 each). These are hardened steel and have polished faces - ideal for use as platens. As with Potter, these could be held in position with a few neodymium magnets.
If you make it Bonny Doon tool-compatible, that would be great! :-)

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Hmm. Not sure I'll be buying them from Cousins somehow... Also, I don't actually want hardened steel used - more mass is fine, but hardened means a) another process and b) possible risk of fracture.

Sounds like you know a lot more about materials science than I do (heck, I'm just a tech author). :-)

I was fairly sure that Potter says in a video that he's using 2 cm plate, but I did a bit of digging and it looks like he is using 1/2" plate after all. That puts up the cost. He says in one video that the 1/2" is far in excess of what is required for 20 tons - so probably no real need for that fancy stress analysis. :-)
The Potter design uses one sheet of metal...the base is made from the metal that is cut out of the centre.
He adds some expensive-looking metal feet - but I reckon hard plastic/rubber feet or just screw holes in the base are probably fine.

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Originally Posted by Dave Willis

Sounds like you know a lot more about materials science than I do (heck, I'm just a tech author). :-)

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Aero engineer turned software engineer ;)

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I was fairly sure that Potter says in a video that he's using 2 cm plate, but I did a bit of digging and it looks like he is using 1/2" plate after all. That puts up the cost. He says in one video that the 1/2" is far in excess of what is required for 20 tons - so probably no real need for that fancy stress analysis. :-)

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Yeah, but I'd like to be certain of just how far it can go.

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The Potter design uses one sheet of metal...the base is made from the metal that is cut out of the centre.
He adds some expensive-looking metal feet - but I reckon hard plastic/rubber feet or just screw holes in the base are probably fine.

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Ah - I'd been going to use a larger base than that, but it probably doesn't need to be. Need to check bending moments on the base too; I was thinking of 10 or 13mm bolt holes only.

Did anyone ever make this happen? Just looking into getting one myself at the moment.

There's an EU source for Potter presses about to come online - not sure if he's quite ready yet.

Right, I've checked - if you're on Facebook, look for Benny Reinhold; he's making up licensed Potter presses. He should have the 50T available soon too...

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I have just had this made for me by a friend who is happy to make them for other silversmiths too. I had at least a 2 year search for a U.K. supplier for the right thing with no success. Mike has built a beautiful steel canal boat from scratch, so this little beast was no problem to him at all! He charged me £595 for it including the 20 ton jack fitted with a pressure gauge. The whole thing is welded together (not just screwed) from steel with 1" thick plattens. He will make them without a jack pressure gauge for £495, or without a jack at all if you would prefer. It's size is 46cm high x 26cm wide x 21 cm deep (add on a further 6cm to the total width for its bench fixing brackets). Mike's phone no is 07976 806078 or email marmit3759@aol.com. I am just happy to help him advertise this press because he doesn't know any silversmiths other than me!! Hope this helps.

If you look up Jon Black from here I know he has made some http://www.blackartscasting.co.uk/ and is selling in the UK