Wax casting, vintage looking finishes, CAD and some new business questions

[Shamsham]

Hi all,

Just a quick introduction - I have zero jewellery making experience or knowledge but really got the creative urge a couple of months ago to make some jewellery.

I decided to get stuck in and met with a jeweler to create a pendant. The process opened up a whole new world to me and I have a few questions about the process I went through before I do it over again for other designs I would like to make.

I appreciate any help anyone can give me and apologies for what is likely to be a very long post.

I created a wings pendant for production through the process of wax carving/having a mould made and casting. It was quite a costly process and I wanted to understand a couple of things in relation to the process through which this necklace was made. I attached a picture of it, the attachment is called Wings Pendant 2.

Questions

1. What ballpark figure would you expect a jeweller to charge for creating a pendant from start to finish i.e. he very quickly knocked up a 3D image from a picture and then 3D printed out a resin/wax version(?), worked the texture into the wax/resin by hand, cast it in brass to create a master, created the mould so I could re-create the pendant and then cast again, plated and finished to create the first piece.

He indicated that his normal pricing would be between £1000-£1500 to create a piece for production because he takes into consideration the unlimited number of copies that can be made once a mould is produced. Luckily I didn't get charged anywhere near this being my first time, he discounted heavily but I really wonder if it actually costs this much every time for someone to bring a design to life? It doesn't seem feasible to create a collection then unless you have quite a lot of money?

2. Because he said creating a mould to reproduce unlimited amounts was where the cost comes from, I looked high and low to see how much this costs but all I got were quotes to create a mould in the region of £40-£50 so I don't understand his pricing. I understand he took time by hand to make it look organic and so his per hour cost was high but should I really expect this every time?

3. My next train of thought was that if its the per hour cost of making something look organic, can this be worked into the CAD. I attempted this with my second design which I've had printed in a resin. Please see attachment Oval Resin Print. I haven't had this cast yet but I've been told it won't work too well and I will loose a lot of the texture when it gets to the final product. So my next question is - to make things look vintage, is this something that has to be done by hand rather than incorporated into a CAD file? Eg. having slightly uneven surfaces or imperfect circles or small blemishes on the surface

4. I am really obsessed with vintage looking finishes like the 3rd and 4th picture I have attached, Bangle 1 and Vintage texture. Does anyone know how you can achieve finishes like this? Is this something that you would work into your wax to create your master?

5. I also love the finish on the 5th attachment I have included MK Vintage 1 - does anyone know how you would achieve something like this?

6. What is the cheapest way to go from idea to mould, would it have to be very simple with no intricate details to be added by hand? ideally I would just like to have a CAD design produced of my idea, print and a mould created, all of which aren't that expensive in themselves so I just struggle to understand where the cost is coming from.

7. For any given design I have made, I don't want to create 100+ initially. I'm still very new to this and would like to be quite cautious. I'd like to create small batches at a time until I get going properly. Should I go about things differently if I want to do it this way?

Apologies for the extremely long post and what is possibly some very silly questions. I really appreciate any help anyone can give me.

Thank you very much

[ps_bond]

One of the first things I'd say is that if you want to produce 100, 500, 1000 pieces from one design then it's not unreasonable to negotiate a price based on that. If you want a 1-off design made, then it's a different licence (or similar construct). Effectively, if I design a piece that you then go on to mass produce and want the rights to it then I'll be looking at a very different pricing schedule to a single. It's not unusual to add royalties onto the contract, but if you want to purchase all rights at the outset then it's a higher up-front cost.

I'll add more tomorrow - too knackered right now.

[Shamsham]

One of the first things I'd say is that if you want to produce 100, 500, 1000 pieces from one design then it's not unreasonable to negotiate a price based on that. If you want a 1-off design made, then it's a different licence (or similar construct). Effectively, if I design a piece that you then go on to mass produce and want the rights to it then I'll be looking at a very different pricing schedule to a single. It's not unusual to add royalties onto the contract, but if you want to purchase all rights at the outset then it's a higher up-front cost.

I'll add more tomorrow - too knackered right now.

Hi Peter,

Appreciate your response and will wait till you reply fully. I edited my initial post to add another question onto the end in respect of what you've said.

The one thing I'll say is that the designs are/will be mine and I want the jeweler to create them for me. In this instance, am I still purchasing rights?

[enigma]

The pricing does seem very high.
When a customer comes to me with their own design generally its an idea rather than a design as I have to work out the technical aspects of how to make it from what is generally actually a rough sketch rather than a technical design.
Im not sure how that translates to CAD work like this though.

[Shamsham]

The pricing does seem very high.
When a customer comes to me with their own design generally its an idea rather than a design as I have to work out the technical aspects of how to make it from what is generally actually a rough sketch rather than a technical design.
Im not sure how that translates to CAD work like this though.

Hi Enigma,

Thanks for your post. Would you mind me asking what your price point would be if a customer came to you with a technical drawing already made and they needed you to do the rest?

Thank you

[CJ57]

While Sarah comes back with her answer I think it’s important to note we are mostly making by hand, one off pieces of jewellery so everything you have written here is like an alien language to me at least. Every piece will be priced from the making, materials, time point of view on your hourly rate whatever that may be.

[enigma]

Yes, what Caroline said.
Personally I just price for my time and materials although I do maintain the copyright to any of my designs so this is really alien territory to me.
I did once have somebody come to me for similar to what you are asking and I just added a bit on for the fact that she wanted to have it copied for sale but when that is your business model I would guess you would have to act differently.
We have a member here who does CAD and may be able to do it for you for a much more reasonable price if he sees this.

[Shamsham]

While Sarah comes back with her answer I think it’s important to note we are mostly making by hand, one off pieces of jewellery so everything you have written here is like an alien language to me at least. Every piece will be priced from the making, materials, time point of view on your hourly rate whatever that may be.

Understood, thank you. I do think the price I have been quoted is to factor in royalties/time/expertise etc. I just wondered if it was reasonable because it will be quite difficult to build a collection if everything costs a grand to get off the ground.

[Shamsham]

Yes, what Caroline said.
Personally I just price for my time and materials although I do maintain the copyright to any of my designs so this is really alien territory to me.
I did once have somebody come to me for similar to what you are asking and I just added a bit on for the fact that she wanted to have it copied for sale but when that is your business model I would guess you would have to act differently.
We have a member here who does CAD and may be able to do it for you for a much more reasonable price if he sees this.

Thanks, I appreciate this is different to what you might do!

Would you be able to share the username of the member? I may get in touch if they don't happen to chance upon this thread.

Thank you!

[ps_bond]

OK, here's one way to view it:

If I am asked to produce a piece to a design (of variable detail) then I will produce that piece as a one-off. The files and everything else that I've created are mine and in that scenario nobody else has any rights to them. It's taken on trust that it won't subsequently be used as a master in a run. If you have significant design input on it, then it's also taken on trust that I won't make them & sell them either.
If I'm asked to produce a model for a run of n pieces, and I'm to sign over the rights to all the modelling work and files, then the price will usually be much higher than the cost of an individual piece (but not 1000 times higher because you want to manufacture 1000). The cost to you for the CAD work is then much lower per piece. It's not a direct cost of the mould, but that is part of the process.

If you want a least-cost option then I'd look at carving the pieces directly in wax, then having your own master cast & moulds made from that. The organic nature of what you've shown would lend itself well to that, possibly better than it would CAD.

Regarding loss of detail on your resin piece, you can have a mould cold-cast (RTV rubber rather than higher temperature vulcanising rubber) using the resin as a master; the detail pickup is good, the major downside to RTV is it has a much shorter life than "proper" rubber moulds. You'd lose a bit, but not all that much.

There remains the issue that just because you can draw something on a computer doesn't mean it will work in real life... Design for manufacture isn't as straightforward as it might be with CAD to casting.

[josef1]

That does seem a bit expensive but I suppose its down to how much you value your time. The main problem you have with making moulds for production is taking into account shrinkage, not so important in the models you have shown but when you need to make rings of a specified size which will have openings for stones of a specific size the master model may need to be remade several times to get the dimensions right there is no hard and fast rule to account for shrinkage which can be upto 15% across the process in the case of larger items . The models you have shown would also be time consuming to model in CAD and get it looking right but can be done. I would maybe cad it without the texture then add the texture by hand to save time or even carve it by hand and scan it. The main cost for me is in the CAD and prototyping its not really a case of just knocking up a quick model it has to work properly. Same with a mould you have to be able to cut it so it doesn't show part lines in areas that are difficult to clean up and also that the model is easy to extract from the mould. For casting I try to charge by the flask so the more you can get in it the cheaper it becomes for you. The cost is similar to cast 1 or 100 rings if its in the same flask just a bit more time injecting moulds and treeing up. Obviously not the metal costs! If its just a case of casting your carved model, finishing it to a master standard, moulding it and recasting say 10 copies for you to finish. I would recon £250 ish would be a fair price less metal costs for a simple ring sized item. printing your own cad file would probs add £50 to that provided its a good model as they will not always work. Also what metal is used can effect cost silver is usually a bit more expensive to have done because you don,t make as much on the metal.

[Shamsham]

OK, here's one way to view it:

If I am asked to produce a piece to a design (of variable detail) then I will produce that piece as a one-off. The files and everything else that I've created are mine and in that scenario nobody else has any rights to them. It's taken on trust that it won't subsequently be used as a master in a run. If you have significant design input on it, then it's also taken on trust that I won't make them & sell them either.
If I'm asked to produce a model for a run of n pieces, and I'm to sign over the rights to all the modelling work and files, then the price will usually be much higher than the cost of an individual piece (but not 1000 times higher because you want to manufacture 1000). The cost to you for the CAD work is then much lower per piece. It's not a direct cost of the mould, but that is part of the process.

If you want a least-cost option then I'd look at carving the pieces directly in wax, then having your own master cast & moulds made from that. The organic nature of what you've shown would lend itself well to that, possibly better than it would CAD.

Regarding loss of detail on your resin piece, you can have a mould cold-cast (RTV rubber rather than higher temperature vulcanising rubber) using the resin as a master; the detail pickup is good, the major downside to RTV is it has a much shorter life than "proper" rubber moulds. You'd lose a bit, but not all that much.

There remains the issue that just because you can draw something on a computer doesn't mean it will work in real life... Design for manufacture isn't as straightforward as it might be with CAD to casting.

This is extremely helpful, thank you very much.

I am looking to get myself onto a wax carving course so I have some basic understanding of how to carve my own pieces in wax which I think will help me massively as I've assumed the starting point will always be a CAD drawing.

Also have a better appreciation of where cost for production comes from although I still believe he may be on the high side of things as I think he is fairly well regarded and has done a lot of work for a lot of designers.

Appreciate your help, thank you!

[Shamsham]

That does seem a bit expensive but I suppose its down to how much you value your time. The main problem you have with making moulds for production is taking into account shrinkage, not so important in the models you have shown but when you need to make rings of a specified size which will have openings for stones of a specific size the master model may need to be remade several times to get the dimensions right there is no hard and fast rule to account for shrinkage which can be upto 15% across the process in the case of larger items . The models you have shown would also be time consuming to model in CAD and get it looking right but can be done. I would maybe cad it without the texture then add the texture by hand to save time or even carve it by hand and scan it. The main cost for me is in the CAD and prototyping its not really a case of just knocking up a quick model it has to work properly. Same with a mould you have to be able to cut it so it doesn't show part lines in areas that are difficult to clean up and also that the model is easy to extract from the mould. For casting I try to charge by the flask so the more you can get in it the cheaper it becomes for you. The cost is similar to cast 1 or 100 rings if its in the same flask just a bit more time injecting moulds and treeing up. Obviously not the metal costs! If its just a case of casting your carved model, finishing it to a master standard, moulding it and recasting say 10 copies for you to finish. I would recon £250 ish would be a fair price less metal costs for a simple ring sized item. printing your own cad file would probs add £50 to that provided its a good model as they will not always work. Also what metal is used can effect cost silver is usually a bit more expensive to have done because you don,t make as much on the metal.

I agree, there's a lot of expertise required in knowing what the dimensions need to be for things to materialise the way you want them, it's why I wanted the first piece to be done all by the jeweler who could run the production from start to finish as he knew exactly what needed to be done to create the end result. I appreciate I may have paid a premium for this level of expertise.

Thanks for your response :)