Metal Forming tools

[Molek]

Hello Everybody! I have been preparing to buy some metal forming tools and need help in choosing the most versatile ones. I did a two short courses at a college where most tools were available therefore I have some idea what I need. However since they were short I don't know how much usage they will actually see. I know that in terms of ring forming and bangle forming I will need the mandrels and they would be used often. But when it comes to shaping a more organic pieces I will need different shapes and forms. I am considering getting the following and would appreciate commenting of how useful they are.

Blacksmith anvil - Can't seem to find a polished large anvil anywhere on the internet. If this is not possible, has anyone got experience of polishing a rough one? Do you use this tool often? I remember liking it a lot when I was making rivets on a really long horn bangle. Would stakes be more useful?

Mini Anvil - are they used at all? They are all over the internet yet I haven't seen one bench actually having one.

Round Draw Plate - There are some very expensive Italian ones and cheaper Indian made, how and if they are world apart?

Rolling Mill - a very useful tool but boy is it expensive, any tip on buying a used one? (I found one but it's quite rusty - can this be cleaned?)Or perhaps there is an affordable one that is below 300 pounds? (wayy below)

Doming Punch and Block set - a specific tool, but can this variety of doming shapes be achieved by another more versatile tool? Also price range is huge I found one that costs 33 pounds (steel, 25 pieces, punches and block) and there are some with similar number of punches that costs over hundreds pounds. Is there a difference in steel that I would need to look out for?

I have read and agree with fellow members saying to buy tools when you start a specific project. This is that time for me since I want to experiment with shapes and generally learn how metal behaves. Apologies for this rather long enquiry :-"

[ps_bond]

Not sure why the system stuck your post in the moderation queue; sorted now.

Anvil - not generally needed for jewellery scale projects. They're the size they are for taking some serious abuse when hammering out hot steel; unless you're going to be forging out chunks of silver in the style of Brett Payne (http://www.brettpayne.com/index.html), it's probably overkill. Unless you can get one really cheaply, of course. Cleaning of a rusty anvil is usually done by forging steel - takes it right off, but won't leave a mirror finish. You can clean an anvil with a flap disk in an angle grinder, but it's not generally worthwhile. Alternatives run from a simple bench block through to a silversmith's (or tinsmith's) stake - some of the larger flat stakes do fine, but will need mounting in a stump (or a vice in a pinch, but a cheap cast iron vice won't stand up to much and a leg vice is going to be quite bulky).

I have a couple of the dinky anvils somewhere. They see very, very little use. The cheap ones are usually cast iron and not worth the trouble for anything more than riveting. The little sparrowhawk anvils are more useful - the horns on them can be used for shaping bezels & ring shanks.

Drawplates: Indian-made tools are usually poorly made & finished IME. Accuracy, resulting finish on the wire you've drawn and ease of use should be higher with the better quality drawplates.

Rolling mills we've pretty much done to death here; I know some people are happy with inexpensive ones, but I prefer the Durstons. Rolls can be cleaned or - providing they're not too far gone - reground by an engineering company with the kit to do so. Given the pressure they exert on metal, they have to be strongly built. Doing so costs.

As with other tools, doming blocks vary wildly on quality of materials & finishing. My main doming block wasn't hugely expensive, but it's had a lot of work put in to radius the edges of the domes (to reduce marking), polishing inside the domes etc. etc. A fair few hours - which is part of the increased cost in better ones. You could use punches with a lead block, but for something simple like domes I'd stick with the doming block.

[Goldsmith]

Peter has covered most of your questions, but may I add a thought that you may like to buy some shaped hammers, you mention making organic shapes, well I have made a lot of flowers in my time and I mostly do the shaping using shaped hammers and lead or wooden blocks to hammer onto. In the past I have purchased relatively cheap standard ball pein and cross pein hammers, then reshaped their faces on a grinder to suit various shaping jobs.

10847 10848 10850

James

[Dennis]

I have read and agree with fellow members saying to buy tools when you start a specific project. This is that time for me since I want to experiment with shapes and generally learn how metal behaves.

If that is the stage you're at, it would be much cheaper to continue with courses (for instance a one term beginners course) in a well equipped workshop.

First to get a better idea of the scale of work you will be interested in, and secondly to complete a set project, so that you use equipment in context.

Until you have made something to wear or use, you will be wasting your money buying equipment which can quickly add up to thousands of pounds and still leave you lacking. Dennis.

[CJ57]

I'd just like to add that all of the equipment you've mentioned is rather specialised and expensive to start off your workshop. That's the thing about being in a college environment, every tool is to hand and you don't think about improvising. It was years before stakes and rolling mills were on my list, you can do a great deal of forming with rolling pins, darning mushrooms and other household items you might find or going after cheap tool boxes at auctions.
I wish I could find the wooden doming punches that were available, I still find myself going back to the top of a dolly peg for a gentler finish, I maybe need to but myself a new set of steels!

I agree that longer courses would enable you to use the equipment available and stretch your capabilities without buying the equipment, you often find that you move on to something else then you have expensive tools gathering dust and only used rarely
Do you have a basic set of tools to begin with, that was my starting point

[enigma]

I generally think that whether or not you buy high end or cheap tools of this kind tends to depend on how much you are going to use them.
I have a cheap rolling mill from Cooksons which I bought about 2 years ago and it serves me fine but I don't use it all that much and take the metal down slowly.
On the other hand I bought an expensive Durston ring stretcher/reducer because I use that all the time and make some heavy rings.
I still don't have a draw plate, haven't yet found I needed one as you can buy wire in a fair variety of sizes.
For me personally I tend to decide exactly what I want to do then if I need a tool I buy it.
I know you say you want to do forming but have you decided *exactly* what you want to make and what tools that will need?
You may find you buy the tools on your list but actually need totally different tools like anticlastic stakes/doming stakes etc and the tools you bought don't get used.
I have a lead block following James advice which I find really useful.

[ps_bond]

It'll be no surprise that I own several drawplates but, as you say, wire is available in a multitude of sizes. Unless, of course, you're drawing down to sizes generally unavailable (0.25mm), or working with mokume gane, or recovering gold from old pieces. Similarly, I use my mill for reducing mokume sheet - not something that an inexpensive mill will handle gracefully (or at all, or in the sizes I need).

As for anticlastic stakes - strangely, I have quite a few of them. It's probably time I made up some more large ones though, they seem to sell faster than the small ones.

[Sheen]

I'd just like to add that all of the equipment you've mentioned is rather specialised and expensive to start off your workshop. That's the thing about being in a college environment, every tool is to hand and you don't think about improvising. It was years before stakes and rolling mills were on my list, you can do a great deal of forming with rolling pins, darning mushrooms and other household items you might find or going after cheap tool boxes at auctions.
I wish I could find the wooden doming punches that were available, I still find myself going back to the top of a dolly peg for a gentler finish, I maybe need to but myself a new set of steels!

I agree that longer courses would enable you to use the equipment available and stretch your capabilities without buying the equipment, you often find that you move on to something else then you have expensive tools gathering dust and only used rarely
Do you have a basic set of tools to begin with, that was my starting point

Found your use of darning mushrooms and dolly pegs interesting. Going to put these on my list as i don't want to buy a doming block at the moment. Thanks

[enigma]

Thats what I mean Peter, it really depends on precisely the work you do.
Although I am on the verge of buying a drawplate actually as I need 0.3mm wire in white and red gold but it seems rather a large expense just for that so Im still undecided..... Incidentally, do you know if anybody makes a draw plate for making small rectangular wire ? Ive only found square so far.
I have no anticlastic stakes at all :(
The thing is there are so many routes you can take in jewellery making and each one requires its own set of tools it easily gets extremely time consuming and expensive, I still have several techniques on my to do list...

[china]

The only rectangular draw plates I have come across are these budget items, if you are unable to source one elsewhere this may get you out of trouble ( post may be a killer)
http://www.gemcuts.com.au/drawer-plate-rectangular

[CJ57]

Found your use of darning mushrooms and dolly pegs interesting. Going to put these on my list as i don't want to buy a doming block at the moment. Thanks

You can adapt all sorts of household items when you don't have the money Sheena. After I'd written it I wasn't sure anyone would know what those two items were though, who darns now! Mine was my grans. The wooden rolling pin is quite useful for bangles although not quite wide enough but once you get your eye in it does the job for a while.

[enigma]

Thanks China :Y:

[enigma]

You can adapt all sorts of household items when you don't have the money Sheena. After I'd written it I wasn't sure anyone would know what those two items were though, who darns now! Mine was my grans. The wooden rolling pin is quite useful for bangles although not quite wide enough but once you get your eye in it does the job for a while.

Ive been making necklets lately and can be found wandering around the house searching for something to shape it on :D

[ps_bond]

Making tools is a good thing, not simply from a time vs money perspective. The tool will do what you want, how you want.
One of mine is an end-grain bit of 4x4" pine with a dent bashed into the end with a ball pein hammer. It sees use in sinking bowl forms in particular - and I can use steel and not worry unduly about an expensive tool getting marked up.

[china]

I get almost as much satisfaction from making the tools as I do using them, wooden doming punches for me are a breeze I am a Cabinet maker and wood turner by trade, I use a ball turner on my metal lathe to make the steel versions
whenever I am am able I will find a substitute that will suffice in the place of a bought item, this can be a problem because I never throw anything away

[Molek]

Wow! Thank you for all the response! I don't even know where to begin! Thank you Peter for the advise! I will leave the blacksmith anvil out of my shopping list. Definitely will look at the quality of the materials the tools are made of. I will also save to get a better quality rolling mill, as even the cheaper ones are not exactly 'cheap' and I'd hate to end up with a tool that I'm not entirely happy with.

James - Thank you for drawing my attention to the hammers, and thank you for posting the photos - that's very helpful. Also beautiful work! I will be looking into expanding my collection of hammers now. I will also look into getting a lead block - that's the first time I heard of it.

[Molek]

Hi Dennis,

Thank you for the reply! I agree I could definitely use more education! The only problem attending a course, or just simply relying on a college workshop is its very limited availability - 3 hours a week, is not quite enough to familiarise yourself with everything. I have had a studio for about 1.5 year now where I have been making simple jewellery, simple soldering ect. and as I'm slowly progressing with that I'm just adding to the repertoire. I know that I will be buying something that I may not need ever again, but I guess it's part of a learning curve. I do heed your advice not to be hot headed and get crazy amount of expensive tools though! Best,
Monika

[Molek]

Hi Caroline,

I do have the basics - pliers, needle files hand files, mallets, steel block, pendant motor etc. I am trying to move in from making a small scale, detailed jewellery to larger, flowing forms.

[CJ57]

I have all that you mentioned in your original post except the anvil, I have never used one since college. The drawplate the same and only needed them because we were required to make our own tubing. I do a lot of fold form and cuffs etc and have bought tools specific to the jobs I want to undertake. My pride and joy is a Durston rolling mill as I try to buy the best I can but I'm not sure I use it as often as I should to merit the cost but they are the best if you can afford one. I would also prefer wooden doming punches and if I'd had that skill I would have made my own. Durston have just produced a set of amazingly beautiful punches but I may be tempted to buy their set of 3 large ones:/

[Dennis]

If you just want to make some outsized domes Caroline, I think something like this woukld do: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-Pc-Extra-Large-Doming-Dapping-40-45-50mm-Punches-Steel-Block-Set-J1476/291979500426?epid=2115909940&hash=item43fb559b8a:g:JgAAAOSwo4pYW7si

My walking sticks were a one off craze, so i could never justify anything dearer. Dennis.

[CJ57]

If you just want to make some outsized domes Caroline, I think something like this woukld do: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-Pc-Extra-Large-Doming-Dapping-40-45-50mm-Punches-Steel-Block-Set-J1476/291979500426?epid=2115909940&hash=item43fb559b8a:g:JgAAAOSwo4pYW7si

My walking sticks were a one off craze, so i could never justify anything dearer. Dennis.

That's great Dennis and a much better price, thank you.
I'm still trying to find something to put my prize money to before the deadline but not having much luck. Think I could do with a press rather than just using a hammer and block to flatten but again they only have a very expensive Durston.
Ooh I see Proops has one of those at half the price!
I have always loved your walking stick

[Molek]

James, I am wondering where you got the knife edge punch from? I have been looking at different repousse tools traders and none seem to have that specific tool. Unless you made it yourself? There's been a lot of information on the forum of how to make your own punches, but that means investing in more tools to create them - something I want to avoid for now

[Goldsmith]

James, I am wondering where you got the knife edge punch from? I have been looking at different repousse tools traders and none seem to have that specific tool. Unless you made it yourself? There's been a lot of information on the forum of how to make your own punches, but that means investing in more tools to create them - something I want to avoid for now

Yes I made that knife edge punch by grinding an old chisel to shape.

Check out these cold chisels on Amazon, the 40mm. one is similar to the one I altered; https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chisel-Shank-Point-Steel-SIL082/dp/B00FA1OEBA/ref=sr_1_1?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1517168854&sr=1-1&keywords=40mm+wide+cold+chisel
or these; https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tacklife-Masonry-Pointed-Concrete-Included/dp/B0742BKZHW/ref=pd_day0_60_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=WP2YFT5914FFZ7HDX64R



James

[china]

Items such as these https://www.ebay.com.au/p/10pcs-Manganese-Steel-Chisel-Set-Stone-Carving-Knife-Artist-Woodworkers-Tools/606185445?iid=272450290705&opts=opick can be a good starting point if you don't have a lot fo metal working gear as a lot of the work id already done and you can reshape them if you are careful and patient with your pendent motor or Dremel if that is what you have