First ever claw setting (help!)

[Faith]

Hello,

So I thought I'd start a new thread as I'm now not claw setting by hand, I'm claw setting with my beautiful new little foredom. It's awesome btw, sadly there's no accounting for its owner....

So first test project: setting a 4mm zircon in here: http://www.cooksongold.com/Findings/Sterling-Silver-Double-Gallery-----Ear-Stud-25pt-4-Claw-prcode-NVJ-846

The setting looked the right size, so I started with a 4mm 90 degree hart burr and tried first to notch all the claws. I held my foredom like a pen (not like an axe - thanks Peter), but while notching a couple of the claws a bit, noticed that I was mainly just shaving a slope of metal off the others as the burr went in.

So seeing as how the claws were at least marked (sort of), I switched to a 2.5mm hart burr and tried to cut each one individually. Three times the burr got away from me cutting a scratch around the outside of the claw (glad I started in silver) but the grove wasn't deep so I carried on.

Seats:

97349735

Oh and to start with I was just holding the stud in my fingers to work on it, I felt like I needed to feel what I was doing initially.... maybe that was a mistake tho I don't know.

TBC

[Faith]

So it turned out the groves I'd cut were then a bit big for the stone, it didn't snap in, so much as waggle around. So I pulled the claws in slightly from the base and tried again. Still no snap but the stone went in less waggley. Used skinny chain nose pliers then to pull the claws over, the claws actually curved slightly which I wasn't expecting to happen, but the stone is in.

9737973897399740

One pair of claws certainly looks better than the other pair, where there's a gap under the stone.

I also haven't attempted to shape the claw tops yet or polished, just looking for feedback after this first one, on how to get better!

Many thanks in advance
Faith

[enigma]

Hi Faith

I am certainly no expert on stone setting but the course I did taught us that the stone needs to sit as low as possible.
So first off gently open the claws so the base of the stone can sit right down into the setting, whilst it is there you can then mark off the height you need to cut your grooves in the claws.
I also very gently cut a seat in the base so that it sits down better.
Then comes the fiddly bit of making sure you get your cuts all lined up at the right height so the stone sits level.....

First one I ever did was before I did the course and luckily for me it was a diamond so I actually got away with plonking it in and letting it cut its own grooves LOL

[Faith]

Ahhh, and I thought I'd done quite well lol! Thanks tho :)

So after that I presume u cut the tops of the claws off as well?

[Dennis]

There is serious scope for disagreement here, because although you might tailor the speed of your motor to the optimum for each burr, they will be inclined to snatch and wander. This will cause collateral damage unless you are strong enough to resist. Most of us re not.

For this reason I have always discouraged the pen grip for this kind of handpiece and suggested it be held in the fist like a potato peeler, resting the thumb somewhere firm to steady the hand.

This might be counter intuitive and takes a bit of learning, but will greatly reduce accidents.

Of course if you are lucky enough to have an ultra high speed set up with a turbine handpiece, then that can be used exactly like a pen. It takes tungsten carbide or diamond, friction grip burrs under a water spray and will cut most materials like butter. Dennis.

[Faith]

Hmm that's interesting Dennis, I had been thinking about control I suppose rather than strength of grip. There's probably a trade off there.

Any comments on the little earring before I embark on number two?

At this point I'm not shooting for pairs btw, just improvement.

Faith

[josef1]

http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq182/JosefOne/SETTING_zpsuqzbzqlp.jpg

Looks good,I agree conventionally the stone should be set lower I have done a graphic of the progression I use. I tend to use a heart burr around 10% - 20% smaller than the stone to cut the claw to fit the stone. that way you can cut a bit out at a time to fit nicely you have done very well though it takes a lot of practice to get it down well.The claws will need to be cut down usually finished to around halfway between the table and the top of the girdle

[enigma]

Hi Faith,

Yes you will almost always need to cut the top of the claws off, if there is a lot of length I generally do it with the piercing saw without the stone in after marking where- be careful not to remove too much though!
If you are careful you should then be able to finish them with a round cup burr once the stone is in- being careful not to scratch softer stones.
I must admit I was surprised how much work was involved when setting ready made claw settings but as each stone is a different shape its unavoidable.
I hold my handpiece as Dennis describes too, rightly or wrongly :)

[Goldsmith]

As Sarah says, the stone is set too high in the setting, the stone needs to be lower like this example.

9742

James

[Faith]

Oh you star Josef! Thank you :) why aren't there diagrams like that in any of the stone setting books I have!?

And okay, so praps try with a 3.1 or 3.5 mm burr next time.

Thanks again
Faith

[Aurarius]

Ahhh, and I thought I'd done quite well lol! Thanks tho :)


I'd say you've done quite well, Faith, but agree with Sarah that the stone should be a bit lower in the setting.

I'd take the stone out and cut the higher pair of seats slightly lower so that they are on a level with the other pair and you don't have that gap. Once everything is secured I'd keep filing/reducing of the tips to a minimum, buff/polish and move on. Your next piece is bound to be better. Do thirty and you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

[Faith]

Thanks Sarah, James and Mark,

Okay so I'm shooting for lots lower, I might even be able to take the stone out of that one and cut the seats off altogether and start again with the stone in the right place. I also have 3 more silver ones to practice on - 26 short by Marks count!

Thanks for the photo too James - you know all the jewellery I've seen you'd think it'd be obvious to me where the stone should go!

Well, I'll see how I get on and pop up a photo of the next one :)

Faith

[Faith]

Attempt 2:

9746

Was a bit of failure... if you can see, I obviously cut the notches in the wrong place, photo is at step 3 going on 4 of Josef's diagram, but as soon as I tried to pull the claws back up the stone got stuck tilting to one side or tother, and wouldn't slot into the opposing notch.

I think rather then cutting the notches and then opening the claws I need to get all the claws open and the stone in sat on the girdle, before trying to cut the notches and or seat. I'm also tempted to try using the hart burr the same size as the stone again so I know I'm getting the right shape between seat and notches...

Any other advice would be appreciated based on my failed little pic.

Ta as always
Faith

[Aurarius]

I can't really get a clear idea from the image what is going on, so it's difficult to say why the girdle won't slot into all the seats when you pull the claws upright; the most likely reason is misalignment of the seats relative to one another. The alignment does have to be very accurate, unfortunately, if you want the stone to sit level and be equally supported by all four claws.

Personally I wouldn't ever pull the claws back that far; you risk stressing the metal excessively.

The usual guidance on stone size relative to setting is that when the stone is placed on top of the claws its girdle's perimeter covers about half the thickness of the claws. Obviously, if your setting has steeply angled sides and you plan on setting the stone near the base of the claws you may have to adjust your stone size downwards.

[Faith]

Thanks Mark, I think the problem was that I cut the seats too low, even shaping the gallery to make the stone sit a bit lower the stones girdle was too high for the seats.

So I think the stones are about the right size based on your description, here's a pic from above:

9747

And the outside diameter of the claws at the height of the upper gallery is about a millimetre bigger than the stone.

I am struggling now tho, having tried with a few different burr sizes, I don't know how to get in there and cut the seats the right height and all level, without practically pulling the setting apart.... :s

Faith

[josef1]

Its difficult to see from the picture but it looks like you need to remove more metal from above the stone the claws are contacting the stone before they can go back

[enigma]

Yes, always gently ease the claws out enough to sit the stone down onto the base first , then mark the height you need to cut the notches.

[Aurarius]

I don't know how much meat you've removed from the upper gallery already (i.e. it's best not to remove more than can be helped), but if it was me I'd get the gallery's upper surface smooth and even (it looks lumpy in the pic), seat the stone down on it, then trim back any parts of any claw that are preventing either the pavilion sitting down level on the gallery or the claw coming down on to the crown. Your bearings won't be ideal but the stone will at least sit level and you'll be able to push down all the claws on to the stone.

[Faith]

Thanks Josef, Sarah and Mark,

Tomorrow I shall have a go at number three, and try to find a way to more accurately mark the seat position.

Thanks again,
Faith

[Gemsetterchris]

You should be able to re-try those first two attempts as they aren't ruined yet.
My biggest heart shaped burr is 1.7mm & generally I use 1.4mm.
You can mark inside each claw with dividers to help see you cut each claw individually at the same depth...once the claws are secure & upright snip off & file down evenly before rounding off or shaping.
It just takes practice & you'll want to stick the earrings into something to hold them as holding by hand isn't going to help.

I`ll also add that you don`t need to set them ever so low, a small gap is quite ok so long as the culet & some of the pavillion is covered & it looks about right.

[Faith]

Thanks Chris that's really helpful. I'll need to buy some smaller heart burrs, the smallest I have is 2.5 mm so I've tried again with that. Sadly the previous two settings did not survive my attempts to salvage them, so I've done another.

I must admit I'm finding a smaller burr easier to use, even though I thought the opposite would be true initially, but just to help me understand is there a specific reason you favour such tiny ones?

Faith

[Faith]

Attempt 3:

975497559756

This looks better to me at least, I marked the claws with my calipers actually (which seemed to work), and used my smallest (2.5mm) heart burr. Then I filed the claws down with the stone in (carefully) and finished with cup burr and rubber wheels.

I can see two obvious flaws, viewed upright, each left claw has a visible groove on the outside, it's the same all the way around, this is the direction the burr was pulling in, so I've obviously let it drag itself off centre. Also one of my claws isn't totally straight at the top.

Apart from that tho what do people think?

Many thanks
Faith

[Aurarius]

I can't view your images, Faith. It says they're invalid attachments.

[Gemsetterchris]

Big burrs do more damage & it's easy to cut into claws too deeply & maybe something that you don't want to..
You'll notice a burr on the left side of claws after cutting that you'll want to remove before adding the stone.

[Faith]

Hello, sorry my post must not have worked, images updated above, can you see them now?

Also thanks Chris, I'll order myself some smaller ones then I think.

Faith

[josef1]

Looking good !, once you get used to things you will not need to bend out the prongs so much also you can put one side of the stone in the notch then push the otherside of the stone so it fits into place. Its great to see you kept with it.

[Faith]

Thanks Josef :)

I've been too frightened of chipping the stone I think to click it in, but I'll have a go. Got a few more silver ones to try before the "main" ones in 18ct.

Are there any good tips to prevent the burr running off by itself and munching the side of the claw? I'm now holding the handpiece very securely but it's still happening... Also planning to try a smaller burr next. Of course it may just require more practice!

Faith

[josef1]

Probs stick with opening the claws a bit then until you get more confident. You will find things easier with a smaller burr they dont have as much bite and you cam take a bit away at a time, its also a practice thing, just make sure you brace against your finger and something thats solid. Also like said above you will find things easier if the setting is held tight, maybe try a small vice (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SODIAL-R-Mini-Clamp-On-Table-Bench-Hobby-Craft-Vice-Tool-BS-/282304781356?hash=item41baad1c2c:g:V48AAOSwJ7RYYij 3) with some leather to protect the setting in the jaws. GRS do some really nice stone setting kits but there very expensive. There are many ways to accomplish the same result just find the one that suits you.

[Faith]

Thanks Josef :)

I have the grs benchmate vice actually, which I use for bezel setting but I couldn't get "comfy" with it for this - I've been finding it easier to cut the claws with the setting held horizontally rather than upright. Praps I'll persevere with the vice tho, and see if I can mount the earring in there at a comfy angle in some thermoloc...

Ta again
Faith

[enigma]

Looks pretty good to me Faith :)
You could try just cutting the notches with a file if you are struggling with the burr.

[Faith]

Thanks Sarah :)

And I know, but then the little Foredom would cry and it'd be awful...! I wanna try to get good with it :)

Faith

[enigma]

Lol! you will find plenty of other jobs that you will really appreciate the Foredom for I promise.

[josef1]

I sure you can change the angle of the bench mate vice ? theres a knob underneath it you can undo to change the angle, Ive not used mine for a while so could be wrong.

[Faith]

The knob underneath let's it rotate, there is a big bolt at the back tho, which I think let's you tip it to the side. Less user friendly (you need a big spanner) but I could try that for sure

Faith

[josef1]

Yeah that sounds about right maybe it will help ?

[Faith]

Yeah I'll have a go :)
I'm not sure at the mo if I'm losing control of the earring of the burr when it goes tramping off around the claw by itself, but at least that would eliminate one source of movement.

Faith

[Aurarius]

Thanks Josef :)

I have the grs benchmate vice actually, which I use for bezel setting but I couldn't get "comfy" with it for this - I've been finding it easier to cut the claws with the setting held horizontally rather than upright. Praps I'll persevere with the vice tho, and see if I can mount the earring in there at a comfy angle in some thermoloc...

Ta again
Faith
I don't know what GRS device you've got, but I've got the Benchmate and I can get things in it horizontal if need be. This doesn't require a spanner. Perhaps you could show us a picture of your set-up.

[Faith]

Hi Mark,

I've got this one: http://www.grstools.com/benchmate-for-jewelers/classic-accessories/multi-purpose-vise.html and it's mounted just like in that picture.

The nut at the back I can't move with my fingers is all.

Faith

[Aurarius]

Hi Mark,

I've got this one: http://www.grstools.com/benchmate-for-jewelers/classic-accessories/multi-purpose-vise.html and it's mounted just like in that picture.

The nut at the back I can't move with my fingers is all.

Faith
I'm not sure why you've opted to use that for this job. Why not use the standard Benchmate ring-clamp, which can easily be made to lie horizontally?
BTW: you should be easily able to straighten that crooked claw tip with a tiny sideways twist from some snipe-nosed pliers.

[Faith]

Just don't have one!

May have been a purchasing error a few years ago, but I have the wooden pin, and that vice, but not the ring clamp. I didn't get a kit you see, just individual bits :)

I'm not ruling out buying one, I just haven't had a need before.

Faith

[Aurarius]

Just don't have one!

May have been a purchasing error a few years ago, but I have the wooden pin, and that vice, but not the ring clamp. I didn't get a kit you see, just individual bits :)

I'm not ruling out buying one, I just haven't had a need before.

Faith
A substitute in the meantime might be one of these:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-VC17-Multi-Angle-Vice/dp/B000LFTOHY/ref=sr_1_9?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1483399617&sr=1-9&keywords=swivel+vice
I recently bought my second one from Aldi, which is identical to this Amazon one but cost only £6. It will enable you to get work horizontal.

If it was me I'd mount the ear-ring for setting on a T-shaped plate (one you've made yourself for peanuts or the overpriced alu one that typically comes with the Benchmate system:https://www.hswalsh.com/product/grs-shellac-pad-benchmate-004-106). Drill a small hole through the top plate to one side of the T's vertical (or, better still, down through the vertical), gloop some hot polymorph on to the plate and sink the earring post into the polymorph, passing the post through the small hole as you do so. You'll be ready to go in a couple of minutes.

[Faith]

Thanks :)

That little vice looks great for the money. I'll have a play and see what I can construct from thermoloc and things in the garage!

Faith

[ps_bond]

Most of my t shaped plates are cut from a length of aluminium extrusion bought cheaply on EBay. A short piece makes a lot of them.

[Faith]

Thanks Peter,

Sadly the return to work will slow my progress now, but I have a bunch more silver studs to practice on next weekend, and will try some of the work holding ideas in the hope of achieveing neater results :)

Faith

[Faith]

Hi all,

Attempt 4:
9766

This time a garnet. I felt it went way better, i didn't damage the outside of the claws this time, and the stone is straighter, perhaps not dead on, but nearly. Any imperfections you can see to improve on?

Also massive thanks to Chris for the burr tip, when I looked at the 1.4mm in the packet i thought I had no chance with something so miniature, but it was so much better!

Also thanks to everyone encouraging me on the work holding front. In the end I didn't get round to buying anything new, but had a play around and ended up clamping the stud between two strips of wood in the vice. It was rock solid actually and made a huge difference.

9768

And finally ta Mark for the tip on straightening the claw.

Tomorrow I'll make this one a friend I think :)

Faith

[Gemsetterchris]

Jolly good improvement, looks reasonable.
Be sure you never ever cut deeper into the claws than halfway as they'll lose their strength..you'll need to push/pull claws so everything works out just so...

[Faith]

Thanks Chris,

These were trickier than the zirconia in that they had quite fat girdles, how would u handle that?

Anything else in particular that you see that isn't quite right?

Thanks again,
Faith

[Aurarius]

Thanks Chris,

These were trickier than the zirconia in that they had quite fat girdles, how would u handle that?



It looks very pleasing, Faith. Well done for thinking of a way of getting the setting into the position you want to work on it.

Different types of burr will produce different shaped seats for girdles to sit in. A setting burr or a round burr will produce a broader opening than a hart burr.

It's worth considering what you're going to do with the claws once you've cut the seats. Some pre-made settings have relatively short stubby claws with flat inner profiles (e.g. this one: http://www.cooksongold.com/Cast-Rings/18ct-White-4-Claw-Double-Gallery---Collet-3.0mm-Light-prcode-NP1-S201), which once notched can only really be pinched against the girdle and rounded off at the top.

Other claws are longer and possibly thinner, and may have flat or rounded inner profiles. These can be left long whilst the seats are cut and then pushed down flat on to the crown (in which case it may be best to flatten off the inner edge of the claws if these are rounded - a setting burr will do this for you automatically). You can then file the claws back to the desired length (unobtrusively short but long enough to still be secure) and finish off their tips by rounding or otherwise shaping them, removing flashings with a graver, and polishing everything up to a smooth finish that doesn't leave any sharp protrusions to snag on clothing.

I think diamonds tend to have thin girdles rather than thick ones. Chris will know far better than I do what stones typically have what shape girdles.

[Faith]

Thanks Mark :)

So possibly I needed a super tiny round burr, maybe half a mm to round out the inner part of the seat a little for these.

These settings have longer thinner rounded claws, but being quite small, and with quite small stones I felt like pushing the claw over onto the stone would be too much. The garnets also have very flat tops, the girdle is only a smidge below the table so I was shooting for flattish domes. Do you think claw pushed over would look better?

It's nice to be able to consider style more now, rather than just the mechanics of getting the stone in there somehow!

Ta again :)
Faith

[Gemsetterchris]

It's impossible to cover all the possible combinations of claws & stone cuts...yes sometimes a ball burr can help.
You just need to do lots of setting & learn new tricks as you go...some stones maybe unevenly cut, this is why it's best to cut each claw individually as needed.

[Faith]

Thanks Chris,

Yeah I know you couldn't possibly cover all the variation :) Here's one of the garnets:

9771

Not an awesome photo I'm afraid but you can hopefully see a definite flat edge to the girdle. The stone is 4mm and the flat girdle "band" is maybe about 0.3mm high.

What would you do with him?

Thanks :) Faith

Actually: here's an attempt in a bit of wire:

9772

I used the tiny heart burr and gradually widened the cut trying to keep the depth the same. It's too deep for a seat, so I need to start shallower. But is that a decent method? It matches the profile of the stone much better than my previous attempts.

Faith

[Gemsetterchris]

You seem to have grasped the idea nicely..now keep practicing.

[Faith]

Thanks Chris,

The most recent one was awful in the end, but I know why so that's something :) More to come.

Faith

[Gemsetterchris]

Learn by your mistakes, it's the only way!
There is a very fine line between success & failure with all settings & lots of other jobs.
Take your time first & speed will follow..even then be careful.

[Faith]

Hi all,

So I've been persisting with the claw setting practice (I'm wearing new stud earrings a lot at the moment!), and I have a question...

How do professional setters mark or otherwise keep track of the orientation of a round stone in relation to the setting, so as to cut each claw individually for an irregularly shaped girdle.

After realising that "hope for the best" was not a great strategy, I've taken to using a fine waterproof marker to put a black spot on one claw, and a black spot on the edge of the table of the stone. Then every time I try the stone against a cut claw I can line up the dots.

It works and it cleans off, but I'm wondering if professionals have a better method than my "stone graffiti"?

Many thanks :)

Faith

PS I'm basically out of practice time now, the next ones will be gold :-O

[Dennis]

I swear by the marker and the methsy smelling rag, but then I'm a dedicated amateur. Why stop at black though? Dennis.

[Faith]

Lol :) you're clearly used to the endless stationary based delights of London Dennis, out here in the sticks, the marker pens are black. What's electricity again? :p

Faith

[josef1]

You can use dividers measure from the girdle to the table then flatten of the claws and measure down off each one and scribe a line on the inside of the claw its still a bit of a guess but they are all equally wrong then

http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq182/JosefOne/116171%201_zpsvnokgzmu.png

[Faith]

Hi Josef,

Thanks - that's a much better method than ive been using for that part actually.

But what I meant tho was, suppose you measure the stone at 12,3,6,9 o'clock, how do you know where 12 o'clock is all the way through the setting process? I've been drawing a mark on the stone in marker pen to deliniate 12, and marking my "12" claw, but I was wondering if others did differently?

It's not that my way doesn't work, I was just interested what others do,

Faith

[josef1]

Ah I see sorry I misunderstood, Tippex or a marker pen is good. the tricks to buy nicely cut stones so you dont need to :Y:

[Faith]

Oh I can believe that!

I felt spoiled and cheated by the zircons I set first of all. I picked them cos they were cheap but was lulled into a false sense of security by their perfect girdles. For example I bought the best quality amethysts I could find and they all have girdles that vary in thickness all the way around! It's like the worlds tinyest shoe fitting exercise for each claw notch.

Okay then concensus is to stick with the trusty pen :)

Ta again,
Faith

[Faith]

Hi all,

Prompted by Dennis, I should update :) I'm now finished (for this project anyway) and have photos!

This is my last practice pair of studs, morganite and silver:
9867

These were the first where I marked a position on the stone to ensure I cut each claw correctly for a specific position on the girdle. It made a big difference but i did get over confident with a cup burr and marked the stone slightly. You can't see it apart from under a loupe - but i consider myself learned on that point!

And finally the main event, for my friends mom in amethyst and gold:
9868

I had run out of time to practice but given the improvement so far felt confident enough not to abandon the idea and tell my friend to buy a spa weekend instead!

Not perfect i'm sure, but i'm very pleased. What do folks think?

So many thanks again for all the help getting me from mangled claws to this far :)

Faith

[enigma]

Well done Faith they look super!

[enigma]

Next project- making your own claws, lots of fun in that one ;)

[Faith]

Thanks Sarah :)

Thank you for the advice you gave me ages ago too about learning claw setting with bought settings. If I'd tried to make the settings, and in gold, and then had the trouble I did actually learning how to set... it would have been a nightmare beyond the telling of it, and I'd never have got it done in time.

I am so glad I learned though. I never really liked claw settings for me, but this project has made me much more fond of them and I am inclined to come up with some designs for settings I could learn to make. Perhaps for a dress ring with a biggish stone, something like that :)

Faith :)

[josef1]

They look great, nice job

[Dennis]

Fine result and a credit to you Faith. Dennis.

[Faith]

Thanks Josef and Dennis :) :)

Faith