Sole Authorship

[ps_bond]

I know I'm very guilty of being both impractical and practical at the same time in this, but I do like to do everything myself in making jewellery. This means I have to learn every technique I want to use, which takes longer and I am fully aware that I (probably) won't be as fast or as effective as someone who specialises in that technique. Stonesetting is a good example.

I've just been reading about someone who was provided with a concept (sketched, if I've understood correctly) by the customer, roughed out a sketch, sent the sketch to someone else for CAD, had the wax made up with someone else's CAM, had the casting house cast and finish it, then sent it off to a setter to set the stones. As far as I am concerned, that is not a jeweller; that's a project manager. Which is not to denigrate project management per se, but I tend to regard it as ancillary (but essential in some guise) to the core effort. Mind you, in the case of one "artist" I can think of he probably outsourced the project management too for his jewellery project...

So. I know I'm being perhaps slightly unrealistic wanting to do it all, but I'll carry on anyway. It's more important to me that it is all my own work (Oh, except the assay office bit I suppose!) than subcontracting everything.

Where's the balance for other people?

[Di Sandland]

Like you say Peter, that's project management. Or Ghost Jewelling ;)

I think for economic reasons there are certain components that it is more effective to buy in.

In fact I had this very conversation yesterday evening with my OH. When I told him I wanted to make everything in a piece of jewellery (hence the kiln and other stuff I've purchased very recently). He asked me why to which my response was 'for my own satisfaction.' Ah, he said, and there lies the difference between an artist/technician and a business man.

As he comes from a management perspective (IT management consultant for many years) he can't see my point of view - yet I can see his. :confused:

[agent_44]

I've just been reading about someone who was provided with a concept (sketched, if I've understood correctly) by the customer, roughed out a sketch, sent the sketch to someone else for CAD, had the wax made up with someone else's CAM, had the casting house cast and finish it, then sent it off to a setter to set the stones. As far as I am concerned, that is not a jeweller; that's a project manager. Which is not to denigrate project management per se, but I tend to regard it as ancillary (but essential in some guise) to the core effort. Mind you, in the case of one "artist" I can think of he probably outsourced the project management too for his jewellery project...


I agree, seems pointless, a jewellery who desn't even set stones into a ready made setting?!

I like to have made as much as possible with a piece but as yet have not produced my own sheet or wire, but I would like to in the future, I will have the space and suitable workroom to do this when I move in a few weeks. I also wouldn't cut my own stones as I suppose most people don't, although my boyfriend has expressed an interest in Lapidary, so I am hoping I'll persuade him to start it up, which I would love!

I suppose at the moment I am bound by my skill level, though I hate the thought of using a pre made setting and things like that. The whole point of making this by hand to me is that they all have to be made by hand!

[ps_bond]

I think for economic reasons there are certain components that it is more effective to buy in.

Yup - milled product in my case. I do mill my own from time to time; but not that often. Other than that... Chain? Bog-standard clasps for the chain?


As he comes from a management perspective (IT management consultant for many years) he can't see my point of view - yet I can see his. :confused:

Hmm. I'm not a particular fan of outsourcing in that industry - the trend for outsourcing core facilities (like IT - or manufacturing) has caused more problems than it solved in the long run IME. That may well colour my judgement.


I like to have made as much as possible with a piece but as yet have not produced my own sheet or wire, but I would like to in the future, I will have the space and suitable workroom to do this when I move in a few weeks. I also wouldn't cut my own stones as I suppose most people don't, although my boyfriend has expressed an interest in Lapidary, so I am hoping I'll persuade him to start it up, which I would love!

I'm trying *very* hard not to get too interested in faceting... I know I'd just end up getting carried away with it. Still, once I retrieve my lathe from my wee brother I could perhaps make a flat lap setup, and maybe a mast head to go with it... :)

[Di Sandland]

Hmm. I'm not a particular fan of outsourcing in that industry - the trend for outsourcing core facilities (like IT - or manufacturing) has caused more problems than it solved in the long run IME. That may well colour my judgement.

LOL, we became very economically 'comfortable' because he had to go in and clear up what outside contractors had FUBAR'd

[ps_bond]

LOL, we became very economically 'comfortable' because he had to go in and clear up what outside contractors had FUBAR'd

Supply and demand in action!

Part of the problem seems to be that as soon as contractors run into an engineering department, a lot of the rules go out of the window - we've got very different requirements from the rest of the company and frequently very odd setups and toolsets.

[MuranoSilver]

I would say it depends on your skill set. I use whatever methods practical to get the customer the best result possible. If that means using other specialist folks to carry out aspects of my design e.g. Diamond Setting, so be it...

An Architect is not expected to build the building and so a designer shouldn't be expected to make every component from scratch. (Unless of course that is what you're selling as part of your Artists/Makers statement to the customer).

People get so hung up on this, I say make what you're comfortable with, push yourself to learn new techniques and skills but don't beat yourself up if you use a cast setting as part of a design...why re-invent the wheel!

Currently I don't
1) Cut stones (though I grind and shape my glass cabs)
2) Draw my own wire (unless absolutely needed)
3) Set Diamonds (unless I have to because the design/project calls for it)
e.g. A lot of my engagement ring clients like the "retail store" look, in which case I'm happy to outsource the setting (I made the decision long ago not to spend avoidable time doing things I don't love to do!)
They're told up front what they're getting is my time in designing the ring for them PLUS the opportunity to select the diamonds themselves. If they bring in a load of pictures cut from Goldsmiths, Leslie Davies etc then I tend to get out the mounts and shanks books. We adapt what's there.

The clients are part of the process and I offer advice as to what types of design will best suit their lifestyle (e.g a rub-over robust setting for a lady who wanted it to stand up to white water rafting, rowing and the sports she loved). For many this is exactly what they want, an option to be selecting more than just a "ring from tray 19" with a High Street comparable price tag.
(Custom without the Cost ££££ ;))

However if the client comes in with hand drawn images and their taste is more unusual (and in my design style) then we start talking design, waxes, prototypes etc.

Nic x

[ps_bond]

An Architect is not expected to build the building

However, the architect should have a thorough understanding of the processes and materials involved instead of fobbing off all the detail work onto the building engineers - then blaming the engineers when his design is shown to be unworkable. CF Norman Foster, Ove Arup and the Milennium Bridge.

Design is only the first part of the process that I'm interested in.

[MuranoSilver]

I'd agree that the designer would need to understand how the aspects of their design fit together and work. Otherwise the designs they do are liable to be flawed and not last the tide of time.

I think most creative jewellery folks are interested in more than just design :)
Personally I think their is only one true Creator of anything (whatever you choose, or not, to call Him/Her) everybody else is just shuffling molecules. :">

[Solunar Silver Studio]

I'd agree that the designer would need to understand how the aspects of their design fit together and work. Otherwise the designs they do are liable to be flawed and not last the tide of time.

I think most creative jewellery folks are interested in more than just design :)
Personally I think their is only one true Creator of anything (whatever you choose, or not, to call Him/Her) everybody else is just shuffling molecules. :">

Now that is a contender for the ol' business card job description....

Molecule Shuffler!!

Love it!!:Y: :-D

[ps_bond]

Now that is a contender for the ol' business card job description....

Molecule Shuffler!!


The hotter the work, the faster we shuffle the molecules :D

[Ominicci]

I can see both sides of the discussion - each to their own as they say.

So what is the opinion on those of us who can't design but like the making??
If I make something that is not my own design (but credit the designer) are my products anything less? And I don't mean copying items out there already.

[Di Sandland]

No, NIcci, (I use that to differentiate you from Nic ;)) I don't believe your work is any the less because I don't think you are just copying. You are using other people's designs as an inspiration in the same way that I use colours, or somebody else might use lines.

Where our inspiration comes from doesn't matter, its what we do with it htat counts.

I have a client who has asked me to make her a version of a necklace she saw on somebody elses website. I've told her that she'll get a version of it but it will be my version and that I couldn't possibly do it exactly the same as that is cheating. I think she understood - I got the commission anyway!

[Ominicci]

Di - I was actually thinking of a design challenge scenario (which has been mentioned). I have some lovely large cabs that I keep looking at and don't want to put them in a plain old bezel setting. Some of them are unusual shapes and need something a bit more, but everytime I sit down to do something with them I go blank.

[Di Sandland]

What I said still stands - just 'inspired by the work of soandso'.

Every artist gets that blank - I do it all the time in my daytime job of writing. My head buzzes with ideas, until I look at that blank page...

[EmmaRose]

I do try and do most of it myself. I don't mill or draw wire though! I make my own findings on higher end pieces. Trouble is sometimes I feel a jack of all trades and master of none.......
Em

[caroleallen]

I think if you want to make a living you have to find ways to compromise sometimes.

[MuranoSilver]

What your proposing, Peter, is a bit silly in the commercial world...that you want to do it all yourself, because that could be engraving, complex pave stone setting, precision lettering in relief only able to be done in wax by cnc, which can only be programmed with cad, then there's engine milling on a lathe...Are you really proposing, you would buy a cnc cutter, £5k and the cad software £3k and a pro casting set up £50k and then spend at least 3 years learning cad, then 3 years learning casting, because you would have to tell the customer, the silver ring will be about £60,000 pounds, and should be ready in 6 years......or do you want me to do it with lesser equipment, with less skill...but at least I can do it me'self madam.....
what about as you say, you need a catch...or a micro belcher to hang a handmade pendant on...are you off to italy to buy a chain knitting machine for £100k no by your own admission your not....
Dont forget, your buying people's skills too with outwork...often years of experience, just in one dedicated field..

:eek::popcorn: Goodness Ben did you get out of bed on the wrong side this evening?? Fancy calling "Mr Bond" silly!!! You should know by now that "Q" has set him up with all that equipment and he's got the wherewithall to use it too!!! rofl.


3) a customer likes the idea of hand made, perhaps a bit wobbly, unusual stone setting techniques, again, a bit wobbly, because it looks handmade...

Darn so few of my customers want wobbly settings, guess I'll have to work on that while I'm how do you "wibble" a molecule :-p
Peace, Love & Jellybabies
Nic x

[geti-titanium]

Hmm.... now this is a topic.

Where do I stand on this? 10 years ago I made a dramatic decision to quit making nuts and bolts (to put it simply) and focus on jewellery. The changeover was gradual, with me learning everything I could about the different processes while the company carried on with the engineering. I relied on an outworker to do certain processes - until he let me down and I couldn't rely on him to work to my standards, the more I was let down, the more I learnt until it got to the stage where I was doing everything.

But, as much fun as I was having though, you get to a stage where you can't do all the manufacturing and run the business so you have to step back from your babies to let them grow. I taught my staff the different processes and we still do virtually every thing in house with me taking more of a back seat in the manufacturing and back to running the company.

There must be nigh on 70,000 hand assembled and finished (I can't claim to call them handmade rings because of all the technology we use) GETi rings out in the field now after 10 years and I still do all of the development of new designs, everybody in the company pitches in with new ideas of how to make the designs. As long as I'm in charge we will always keep as much as possible being done under one roof - even if it's not always me doing it personally.

[Solunar Silver Studio]

Generally, I think everyone is strung out on a line with 'the joy of making' at one end and 'money' at the other. If all we want out of life is the pleasure of creating something which is a unique expression of what is within us - chances are we are not always going to find a buyer but we are going to love our hours of labour! At the other end is the need to make enough money to live on....and suddenly finding a cheaper way of producing a design means more money in the back pocket and it would be total madness not to go for the cheaper opton even if it does mean we spend more time raising orders than raising silver bowls. Somewhere in the middle region is making to commission because we partly sacrifice what we want to do to supply what the customer wants but probably still enjoy the creative process and get paid for it. Sometimes we are at different places on the line which makes for a varied career and wide experience, but where ever we are on the line we are just a little bit way from everyone else - so should we look up to or down on others? We may envy someone who is in a different position and can work toward that direction but it is a very personal choice where we decide to pitch our tent - and just as well really because it makes for so much variety - and if we are happy in our work (where ever we are on that line), aren't we lucky!!

[caroleallen]

Couldn't have put it better myself Barbara!

[ps_bond]

...........................

Oh blast, Ben - I wanted to respond to that in full! Now I can't pick it over.

Essentially, yes, my approach isn't a realistic commercial one for several reasons. However... I've got something you haven't necessarily: I like to learn these techniques in my own time, it's how I relax.

The comments about the project mentioned were in no way aimed at you - and from what I've seen, I doubt you'd have so little involvement in a project as that described. Also, the waxes were so simple that I'd have expected anyone competent to just carve the things, they didn't really require the CAD/CAM approach in this case.

I did have a couple of other thoughts on the commercial side -

I limit myself to what I know I can accomplish; if it is a technique I know I can't do adequately, I'll turn the job down - if I can guide the customer towards something we'd both be happy with then fine, but managing expectations comes into it.

I've a bit of experience working with CAD on mechanical projects; similarly CAM (even wrote code for some older CNC machines years ago); for one-offs it would have to be quite something to persuade me that the time spent in dealing with setup costs etc. were worthwhile. Half the time with the short-run stuff I'd just as soon machine it myself.

Shipping - anything like that has to be sent back and forth; for CAD files & sketches, these could be emailled around. Once the waxes exist, you have an item to ship around - so worst case, the waxes get sent to you, you send them to the casting house, they send the castings back, they get sent to the setter, sent back... This is going to cost what, £40 on postage? That's quite an overhead, with no economies of scale to offset it against.

And, like Alan - I'm very, very bad at delegating (sorry Alan!); been let down by suppliers too many times who have lost orders, mucked things up and the like. I don't like relying on other people to get it right to my satisfaction. Again, the scales I'm currently working to provide me that luxury.

There's plenty more I could blether on about, but I'll hold off. :)