Tube settings

[Faith]

Hello :)
Thought I'd start a new thread as I'm certain I'll need it!

I'm starting two tube settings (first attempt). One for a 4.6mm faceted stone for which I have appropriate tube and burs now as advised by Dennis and Sarah.

For the other I was hoping to set a weeny cab - 3mm. My idea was to use two bits of tubing in a telescoping fashion for this. I've bought the tube, one piece with external diameter 3mm, one piece with internal diameter 3mm. I know I'll have to measure a stone and buy one exactly the right size.

I thought this was a good plan to make a nice secure seat and also because I like a thicker bezel (the outer tube is 0.5mm thick), but now I'm worried:

Firstly the tubing doesn't telescope - it refuses to fit :( maybe a light sand will encourage it tho.

Secondly now I'm worried the full width tube will be impossible to push and I should instead have planned to cut a seat in just one bit of tube with an upside down cone burr...

What do folks think? Is my original telescope idea likely to work?

Many thanks as always :)
Faith

[Dennis]

You're on the right track Faith, but tube sizes are not quite as described, so you will get into trouble fitting them.
Next you are now dealing with sterling silver, a much harder animal than the fine silver you have been using. So pushing home even 0.3mm of rim can be tough.

I suggest you start the seats with a round burr, using tubing no more than 0.6mm wider than the stone, and make the seat more perfect for cabs using these dedicated flat ended burrs to finish: https://www.hswalsh.com/product/fraizer-fig-412-wheel-head-burr-please-select-size.

Of course being me I do it by hand. Dennis.

[Faith]

Thanks Dennis, why oh why didn't I ask before, the one size of tube I needed I didn't order then :(

And I'd totally forgotten about the sterling part!

Well I'll have a nice stock of tiny lengths of tube at least :)

Ta again,
Faith

[enigma]

Yes I bought some of those for seating round cabs, I tried originally using a round burr but of course they don't sit properly if you do that.
Have you got a vernier? you really need one of you are going to do inset or tube set stones as the sizes given for both tubing and burrs and also stones are never exact so you need to individually measure everything first.
Im not sure tube is annealed when you buy it so you may also need to carefully anneal before trying to set stones ( I haven't actually done any tube settings myself so Im guessing here!)
And lastly if you are going to push over 0.5mm sterling then you may find you need a hammer handpiece but see how you get on :)

Of course being me I don't do it by hand LOL

[Faith]

Thanks Sarah :)

Yes I figured I'd need a flat ledge for cabs less they wriggle around so it's good to know you recommend those burrs too. I read an old thread where "upside down cone" burs were recommended also, but it was a while ago.

I do have a vernier, it's funny I managed for ages without it and now I'm measuring everything in sight, very handy!

I think possibly I'll give up on the telescope idea and burr my cab setting from a single tube also thus creating a thinner wall to cope with - loathe tho I am to pass up any reasons why I might need extra Foredom toys :p

I have entertained myself a lot the last few days "Foredom window shopping" the only problem being I've almost convinced myself I want the micromotor instead, which in itself isnt unaffordable, just that pesky hammer handpiece becomes really quite a serious upgrade.

Perhaps I'll take myself to Sutton before Xmas and have a play :)

Thanks again
Faith

[enigma]

Thats definitely a good idea- I would love to have a play with all the toys before buying!

[Dennis]

An alternative is to use round nosed pliers, with one side ground slightly flat, to pinch the tube just above the girdle.

This is particularly gentle on fragile pieces which would be difficult to support for hammering and will save you £££.

It requires a new skill, but very little strength. See the stone set chains and wire work in my album.

Has anyone ever agreed, or supported me on this? No, it has only been met with a loud silence. Dennis.

[Paul Kay]

I use ball burrs (almost, see below) exclusively for tube settings and do not have (many) problems with wobbly stones. I only hand cut, the Pros are:

1. No matter what angle you are cutting at they cut the same shape leaving a horizontal seat for the stone where the cut curves inwards
2. Once you are cutting beyond the half way point you get straight sided walls, again regardless of cutting slightly off parallel
3. They are never perfectly ball shaped, and often you can use this to advantage to slightly widen the cut
4. With care, and by hand cutting they remain self centering in the tube and if slightly off centre, you can see and adjust your hand pressure slightly to re-centre before you reach the half way point.

I see the Cons of any other (Wheel/Setting/Inverted Cone) burrs as:

1. You have to cut perfectly parallel else the seat and therefore the stone will not be horizontal
2. The width/diameter of the burr is the width of the cut, unless you adjust your horizontal pressure but then the cut is no longer round
3. I'm sure there must be a 3 at least, but it's early morning! If I remember I'll edit later

Occasionally, for faceted stones I will start with a ball burr to get the cut centred, test the stone fit, and finish with a setting burr if needed

I agree with the above, 0.5 walls of Sterling Silver are hard to shift without hammer assistance regardless of how recently in the construction/finishing process the tube was last annealed, whether by hand or mechanical aid, especially in the smaller tube settings. I aim for no more than 0.3, and less for the smaller stone sizes.

Dennis, my father and mother almost always used to set your way with pliers on both claw and small bezel settings, though with flat-faced 'snipe' nosed pliers rather than round ones. Perhaps it's time I re-visited the method?

[ps_bond]

An alternative is to use round nosed pliers, with one side ground slightly flat, to pinch the tube just above the girdle.

...

Has anyone ever agreed, or supported me on this? No, it has only been met with a loud silence. Dennis.

Hmm. Haven't tried that with tubes, I only use a pusher or hammer set (for the thicker stuff).
I do use pliers for claw settings quite often (snipe, parrot and some bizarre setting pliers that were a gift).


I use ball burrs (almost, see below) exclusively for tube settings and do not have (many) problems with wobbly stones.

Yup. For larger stuff (4+ mm) I usually cut the bearing with a scorper though; I find the larger burrs far more inclined to chatter.
The other thing with ball burrs is they come in 0.1mm increments, while setting burrs are in 0.3mm increments. Bud burrs are quite a nice halfway house - you still need to be sure they're straight though.

[Faith]

Thanks Dennis, Paul and Peter,

I'm certainly sold on the pro's of the ball burs, and maybe I need to just try it, but I still cant help thinking that for cabs I'd need to flatten the seat a bit at least to keep them steady.

Re the plier technique - why round nose pliers? Instinctively I would have thought fairly wide flat faced jaws would be less likely to 'dent' the bezel edge and keep it smooth? I must admit my only experience of trying to use pliers to close claws was a disaster (plier bites to fingers, work piece flying across the kitchen, broken stone and ultimately broken pliers). It was a virtually impossible job mind, I didn't realise it at the time, but pushing home, short, work hardened, 1mm sterling claws was never gonna go well.

I can see the logic tho, its a little bit like using one of those stake tools with the concave end, except a bit at a time.

Thinner walls for sure I think as well - especially now I've reminded myself of the 'sterling claw disaster'!

Many thanks again,
Faith

[Dennis]

Re the plier technique - why round nose pliers? Faith

The knife edged rim to be turned down should only be a quarter to one third of a mm tall. I use a stroking action with the round jaw to do this, while the slightly flattened opposite jaw offers resistance. Press too low and you undermine the stone and force it out.

You will note that Paul cites his parents as having used flat pliers, so you will need to experiment to find your own best method. Dennis.

[enigma]

I always use pliers for claw settings but haven't tried them for bezels yet, I would imagine one would need to practise to get the technique right.

[Faith]

Sorry I'm confused by your description Dennis - which plier orientation are we talking about?

9395

Faith

[Susie]

I'm learning a lot here today from this thread and want to try this out NOW.
So... To recap. I need to buy fine silver chenier, the outer diameter being 0.6 wider than the stone. So for a 4mm cab, i need to buy chenier which is 4.6mm diameter. Use a ball burr that is 4mm to cut out the seat (or a slightly smaller one?). And use round nose pliers to pinch it closed, but first by filing one of them flat. Have i got this right?

[Dennis]

Sorry I'm confused by your description Dennis - which plier orientation are we talking about? Faith

Using my pliers, I keep them horizontal as in A. I'm not sure how the flat pliers were used. Dennis.

[Dennis]

I'm learning a lot here today from this thread and want to try this out NOW.
So... To recap. I need to buy fine silver chenier, the outer diameter being 0.6 wider than the stone. So for a 4mm cab, i need to buy chenier which is 4.6mm diameter. Use a ball burr that is 4mm to cut out the seat (or a slightly smaller one?). And use round nose pliers to pinch it closed, but first by filing one of them flat. Have i got this right?

Yes, almost right.
Silver chenier only comes in sterling.

If using a ball burr only, the burr should have the same diameter as the stone, or slightly less. As ball burrs are sightly oval, leaning them on their side gives you a small increase in diameter.

The only other hitch is that tubing is never quite as described and for that matter nor are stones.
So you might wish to keep a selection of say 60.0mm lengths, so that you can actually put the stone onto the end and confirm your choice by eye. Dennis.

[Susie]

Got it!


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[Faith]

Thanks Dennis, the round plier choice makes sense now, I had been thinking to use them as in B, like a lever action square faced pusher. Get it now :)

Faith

[Paul Kay]

The knife edged rim to be turned down should only be a quarter to one third of a mm tall. I use a stroking action with the round jaw to do this, while the slightly flattened opposite jaw offers resistance. Press too low and you undermine the stone and force it out.

You will note that Paul cites his parents as having used flat pliers, so you will need to experiment to find your own best method. Dennis.

Dennis, I like the sound of the stroking action with the round jaw, I aim to give that a try. As for my father's method, it would be nicest to say that he had his own ways of doing things, and my mother succeeded with it enough to spend her evenings stone setting. I, on the other hand, was rarely asked to help with that particular job, though I still have the pliers he gave me for when I did.

... and like Dennis, A - horizontally, with controlled pressure, so as not to snap the jaws shut off the bezel/claws and onto the stone, the bit I was rubbish at.

[Patstone]

I tried using the square shafted bezel pusher-over, and found nine times out of ten it slipped, wondered about sticking a square of chamois on it to help stop the slipping. Then use a curved bezel pusher to tidy up.

[ps_bond]

Have you matted the end of the pusher either by whacking an old file on it a few times or banging it into some coarse wet & dry on a bench block?

[Patstone]

Have now Peter and it works.

[Susie]

Hi Dennis

Just one more question about this... just about to order some sterling silver chenier. Should the wall be 0.5mm or 1mm? I you have to drill into it, i'm guessing 1mm?

Thanks


Yes, almost right.
Silver chenier only comes in sterling.

If using a ball burr only, the burr should have the same diameter as the stone, or slightly less. As ball burrs are sightly oval, leaning them on their side gives you a small increase in diameter.

The only other hitch is that tubing is never quite as described and for that matter nor are stones.
So you might wish to keep a selection of say 60.0mm lengths, so that you can actually put the stone onto the end and confirm your choice by eye. Dennis.

[Faith]

Hi Susie,

I might be wrong, having not actually started my project yet (life really does get in the way of jewellery making sometimes!), but I'm going to start with 0.5mm walled tubing. I was dubious myself, but I've watched a few tutorials that advise what you're looking for is for the diameter of the stone to be half way between the internal and external diameters of the tubing; and for the external diameter of the tube to be no more than 0.6mm bigger than the diameter of the stone.

So say if you had a 4.5mm stone, you could use tubing with internal diameter of 4mm and external diameter of 5mm, which would make the full wall thickness of the tube 0.5mm, and would give you 0.25mm of wall to push over after its been burred - which should be okay.

Faith

[Susie]

Yes that makes sense. Thanks Faith.

[LydiaNiz]

Dennis, I have used your pliers method! :-)

[Dennis]

Well I hope it worked for you Lydia. I hate to give duff advice. Dennis.

[LydiaNiz]

did indeed :-)

[Faith]

Oh deary dear....

Well I had a jewellery day today. Burred my tube with a ball burr, then a setting burr (this was for the faceted stone). The burs measured 0.05 of a mil smaller than my stone but with a bit of a wiggle my stone fit snuggly. Made a ring, sawed out a tube sized gap in the ring, filed the ends concave and soldered the tube in. Soldered it really really seriously wonky :). I've never soldered a setting "into" a shank before, as opposed to "onto" a fully round shank, and my baby butane torch didn't put out enough heat to flow both solder joins at once, hence I did them one at a time. Now however, I have no idea how I might get it hot enough to true it, or get it off altogether to try again :(

For this evening I have solved this problem in the only way I know how - pub.

Pesky pesky tube!

Faith

[Aurarius]

Oh deary dear....

Well I had a jewellery day today. Burred my tube with a ball burr, then a setting burr (this was for the faceted stone). The burs measured half a mil smaller than my stone but with a bit of a wiggle my stone fit snuggly. Made a ring, sawed out a tube sized gap in the ring, filed the ends concave and soldered the tube in. Soldered it really really seriously wonky :). I've never soldered a setting "into" a shank before, as opposed to "onto" a fully round shank, and my baby butane torch didn't put out enough heat to flow both solder joins at once, hence I did them one at a time. Now however, I have no idea how I might get it hot enough to true it, or get it off altogether to try again :(

For this evening I have solved this problem in the only way I know how - pub.

Pesky pesky tube!

Faith

Getting heads and shanks perfectly aligned for soldering is a fiddle - make no mistake. And the more perfectly you align them the more an infernal law tends to operate that means they move out of alignment at the critical moment.

To discourage the infernal law from operating you really need to hold things in position so that their tendency to move out of alignment will be removed or reduced. Binding wire is one option (fiddly and tedious for rings); another is titanium soldering clamps; yet another is head/shank tweezers, which can also be fiddly to set up but which are probably the firmest way out of the three of securing head and shank together immovably.

In the present case, you could have a go at remelting the solder and giving the setting a nudge. If you need to have more than one or two goes to achieve the desired alignment you may blow out too much of the old solder and have to start again; or you may inadvertently melt your setting.

I'd be inclined to try once or twice at melting the old solder and repositioning, and if you fail to improve things by then to desolder the setting completely, pickle it and the shank thoroughly, reposition with new solder using one of the holding methods I've described, and have a fresh go - preferably not immediately after your return from the pub, or you may need to head off down there again for liquid consolation.

[enigma]

Aurarius is quite correct of course but personally I think it would be more fun to do when you get back from the pub LOL
Do be careful not to set the house alight though......
Personally I like to use gravity and balance the settings on top of the shank rather than fix in any way but they do often move as the solder flows- I adjust them at this point with the solder pick.
Not saying this is right, just what works ok for me.
Don't forget to re do the flux if you try to melt the solder.

[Faith]

Thanks Sarah and Aurarius :)

Im not sure it's my weekend!

I had another crack today, firstly looking at my sad little ring I decided to have another go entirely. One side of the new ring soldered fine the other distorted rather badly (despite being anealed). Anyway trying trying to squash it back into shape while it was hot was not the answer, it broke in two :(

So i returned to yesterday's ring and tried as you said Aurarius, to reflow the solder and true it. That actually worked reasonably well (I didn't think my torch would do it), it's not perfect but more "get the spirit level out" to tell its wonky, rather than the leaning tower of tube ring. Unfortunately reflowing it blew some solder out onto the setting, and I made a mess trying to tidy it up, parts of it are rather over polished now, and there's still some tiny solder bumps left.

I got this far anyway:

9462

Before I mostly packed up and decided to just give one of my finished rings a quick polish (i'd scratched it slightly wearing it), and somehow made it a whole lot worse with a pink silicon wheel! The dremel was fully charged and the wheel just reshaped so all in all it was much too feisty for a tiny touch up :( Eventually I mostly fixed it, and realised as I was giving it a final rub with a polishing pad that maybe that would have been the thing to reach for in the first place! Moron girl!

Well everything's a lesson :)

Faith

PS the stone isn't set yet, it's just sitting in there.

[Aurarius]

It looks promising, Faith. Have you still got to burr out the inner wall of your bezel to seat the stone or have you done that already?
When you do come to set the stone, make sure the bezel is well supported before you start pushing on the top rim, otherwise it may distort. Also don't try re-rounding the ring at this stage on a triblet, or you're likely to make the bottom of your nice round bezel oval-shaped.

[Patstone]

I like it and would wear it happily if thats any consolation. Making jewellery is always a learning curve as everything seems a challenge sometimes, and I have learned by experience, if it doesnt work the first time, put it away for a while and do something else, then come back to it later.

[Faith]

Thanks Pat :) its going to be for one of my friends if it works - I'd had the stone for ages but am not wild about that shade of topaz myself, whereas she loves it, so I figured I'd set it for practice and made her a gift of it.

I think you're quite right though, sometimes you just need to put things to one side and come back with a fresh mind :).

Faith

[Faith]

Thanks Aurarius,

The stone seat is already burred out on that one. It was my very first "burring" and I did it by hand. For ages the stone wouldn't go in, but now it almost seems tighter at the top than it is when its down in its seat. I also think I may have used the ball burr too much and swapped to setting burr too late, as the stone will sit flat, but if you poke it it can also slide and sit wonky. Any idea what I've done wrong?

Good tip on supporting the bezel - could this be an embed in thermoloc with just its snout poking out job?

Also thanks for the triblet tip, I could well have done that and wouldn't have thought about the base of the setting stretching.

Thanks again,

Faith

[Aurarius]

For ages the stone wouldn't go in, but now it almost seems tighter at the top than it is when its down in its seat. I also think I may have used the ball burr too much and swapped to setting burr too late, as the stone will sit flat, but if you poke it it can also slide and sit wonky. Any idea what I've done wrong?

Good tip on supporting the bezel - could this be an embed in thermoloc with just its snout poking out job?



If it slides around and doesn't always want to sit level, this probably means it has a little bit too much room to move about in at the spot where it comes to rest and/or the seat isn't perfectly level. If, in addition, the profile of the seat isn't quite a match for the pavilion profile of the stone this will probably exaggerate the impact of either of the first two defects.

There's a lot to get right in setting, and it's very easy to go wrong, so don't be disheartened. No pain, no gain.

Thermoloc/polymorph up to halfway up the bezel would be the safest approach, probably, but you might easily get away with the ring inserted all the way into a ring clamp or benchmate so that the underside of the bezel is supported on the top edge of the closed jaws of the clamp. It depends how much force you're going to need to exert on the bezel to move enough metal over the stone.

It would be nice to see the finished item.

[Faith]

Thanks Aurarius,

That makes sense - I had to wiggle the setting bur a bit to open the top up enough, probably what I needed was a slightly bigger burr, but just starting burring I had only the two (round and setting) bought for that stone. Thinking about it tho, wiggling the setting bur may have enlarged the inside a bit more than the top, making my wobble.

Do you think its retrievable? I shouldn't scrap pot it and have a third go?

I have thrmoloc and the grs vice so I'll try that, funnily I adore the benchmate system but didn't buy an actual bench mate thingy (the ring holder part) I have the peg, the robot arm soldering station and the vice. Do you recommend the ring grabber?

Will definitely post a pic when done :)

Thanks for all your help,

Faith

[Faith]

*Waves to Dennis*

Hello :)

Aurarius has given me some great advice about my setting - to actually set it, given my wobbly problem, I was thinking to try your plier method, but I'm struggling to see it in my head. I understand the principal, but is there any more you can explain about how you move the pliers to secure the stone?

Thanks loads :)

Faith

[Dennis]

For faceted stones the general idea is:

Make sure the table of your stone is more or less level with the rim.
File the outside of the rim to a knife edge, so that it is thin but not ragged.
Keep the stone steady with a finger nail.
Pinch the edge over the girdle first N, then S, then E&W and so on. For this I use round nosed pliers, with one side slightly flattened.

Practice with short bits of tubing in your mitre block and cheap CZs.

If this method does not suit you, look at tutorials on U Tube. Dennis.

[Faith]

Thanks Dennis :)

I'm gonna have a go at setting it this weekend, one way or another, busy week unfortunately!

Faith

[Susie]

Hoorah! After order the chenier, ball burr and seat burr, I have just finished my first attempt after reading all the info on this thread. Success!!! Bloody success!!!!! I'm so chuffed. Thanks for all the info. [emoji1303]


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[Faith]

Well done Susie :) can we see!?

In the end I decided I wasn't happy with ring number one, and having shattered ring number two in half made ring # three today. Tomorrow is my setting fun.

Congrats again on the success, I love it when stuff works :)

Faith

[Susie]

Oh no Faith. Well good luck with ring number 3. I must admit, i've given up on Gypsy settings. I just CANNOT seem to get it right.
I'll post a photo of my next one. The tube is a bit high. I left it high because i thought if i mucked it up, i can lop the top off and have another go.
Going for a double setting on my next ring...

[Faith]

Hi Susie,

Thankyou :)

Gypsy is one of my next ones to try, there's some good instructions on here, but the idea rather terrifies me too!

Did you make your ring with the tube on the ring (soldered onto a ring band) or in the ring (where u cut the band and slot the tube in - or not in my case)? If you did an "in the ring" one I'd love to hear your tips - it found it a nightmare. Once the circular integrity of the shank was broken I had no end of problems with it distorting.

Looking forward to seeing your next one :)

Faith

[Dennis]

When cutting a shank to insert a tube, get the size correct then anneal it , or it will spring open when cut. Dennis.

[Susie]

I soldered mine on top of the ring band. My next one, will be soldering on a couple of tubes either side of some round wire.
Dennis, you're a flipping genius.

[Dennis]

Not really Susie, just had lots of disasters in the past and no doubt lots to come. Dennis.

[Faith]

Thanks Dennis, I actually did anneal it - the most successful one I annealed, pickled and reshaped (if necessary) three times! That seemed better. Possibly I'm not getting it hot enough...

Faith

[Susie]

9476

Ok so here's my second go at the tube settings. Needs tweaking, but having fun!

[Faith]

That looks great Susie, I like the overlapping shank too :)

Faith

[Susie]

That looks great Susie, I like the overlapping shank too :)

Faith

Thanks Faith. Haven't got it right yet but I'm going to persevere! [emoji38]


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[enigma]

Nice job Susie!