Question about swage blocks

[Lily]

Hi there, I'm sorry to come in on this thread like this but for some reason I can never work out how to post a new thread.
I have two questions -
1. How do I post a new thread - it's probably that I'm missing something obvious. In the past I think I have found out by chance and I ought to write it down because it takes me ages to find it again!
2. Can any one tell me what the tool is called for bending metal round into a tube shape please. I don't mean a draw plate but something I can use to make a rough tube by hammering. I want to make tube and then shape it into bangles and rings. Any hints most welcome!
Thank you all.

[Lily]

Thank you whoever titled my question 'Question about swage blocks' or did that happen spookily by itself? Anyway that answers my question! Still grateful for any hints.

[Goldsmith]

Thank you whoever titled my question 'Question about swage blocks' or did that happen spookily by itself? Anyway that answers my question! Still grateful for any hints.

These are Cookson's swage blocks;http://www.cooksongold.com/category_select.jsp?query=Swage+Block+12+Groove&queryFromSuggest=true I have an old one similar to the 10 groove middle of the page model. I also have a selection of lengths of steel rods of different thicknesses, which I use as the tube former, hitting it with a rawhide mallet while the sheet metal is in the swage block when making tube lengths. I bought my stock of various thicknesses of steel rods from a Model engineers exhibition, these countrywide exhibitions are a great place to buy metals and tools. Just Google; model engineers exhibitions 2016 and you will get a list of events if you are interested.

James

[ps_bond]

Thank you whoever titled my question 'Question about swage blocks' or did that happen spookily by itself? Anyway that answers my question! Still grateful for any hints.

No, not magic. Not even sufficiently advanced technology. I pruned your post from the original and moved it here. The way to post a new thread is to go to the forum area where you want to post - in this case, it's http://www.cooksongold.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=31 and click on "Post New Thread" in the upper LHS.

[Lily]

Thank you very much Peter!
I still believe in fairies....

[Lily]

Thank you James,
That is very helpful as always. I am hoping to make tube and then form it into bangles/rings without ruining the tube shape.

[Dennis]

Lily,
This is a really difficult thing to do and most of us would shirk it, opting for solid wire.

First you have to swage the sheet into a tube with a neat seam and solder it. The you will need to draw it down to make it perfectly round. Why do that when you can buy much better seamless tubing ready made?

Next you have to fill the tube with something to stop it collapsing when bending it. It can be done, but you'll trash a few before you get it right. You would certainly be advised to practice with copper first.

You get a surprising amount of solid round wire for your money an it is relatively easy to work with. The only problem frequently encountered by beginners, is that for bangles they do not have a hot enough torch. Dennis.

[Goldsmith]

Lily,
I forgot to mention that I buy lengths of silversteel rods from EKP Supplies, silversteel can be hardened and tempered and is great for making texturing punches, chasing tools, also are good for winding jump rings and shaping tubes see; https://ekpsupplies.com/silversteel.html

They also sell stock metal packs that are useful for making tools etc. see; https://ekpsupplies.com/metal-stock-packs.html

I am sure if you check through there website, like me you will find many useful items, I also buy my drills and threading equipment from EKP and copper sheet for making patterns; https://ekpsupplies.com/copper-sheet.html

James

James

[Lily]

Thank you Dennis,
I agree - it may well be too difficult. I have made quite a few bangles and rings with solid wire but this is something new for me. I had been looking at seeds lined up in pods and have been figuring out ways to do something like this by having part of the tube open (to accommodate the 'seeds') and the rest closed. I don't mind if it's a bit rough or organic looking but I can imagine getting quite frustrated about it all. Perhaps I need to rethink my design.

[Lily]

Thank you very much James! A wealth of information there - I have not come across EKP supplies before - very kind of you to do all the links.

[mizgeorge]

Now I can imagine what it is you're trying to do, it may be that some anticlastic forming tools (even pliers) might be more useful?

[Goldsmith]

Lily,
If I was making seed pods I would shape them from soft sheet using a shaped hammer and a lead block. I have posted this tutorial before but I cannot find a link to it, it shows me shaping a copper leaf using a lead block, hammers and a punch. You may find it useful.

9310 9311 9312 9313

James

[Lily]

Thanks George, yes that may be the way to go - it's certainly helping me to rethink the process.
I had to google anticlastic :D

[Lily]

That is extremely useful James. Thank you so much!

[Goldsmith]

That is extremely useful James. Thank you so much!

You may find these photos useful, one shows some of my home shaped cheap hammers and the other shows my lead block and it's mold, when the block gets marked all over I just remelt it in the ingot mold using my Sievert blowtorch and when it cools I have a new block.

9314 9315


James

[Lily]

You may find these photos useful, one shows some of my home shaped cheap hammers and the other shows my lead block and it's mold, when the block gets marked all over I just remelt it in the ingot mold using my Sievert blowtorch and when it cools I have a new block.

9314 9315


James

I like both of these ideas and would not have thought about either. We do have a grinder and some old hammers so could try reshaping some of them - thank you again James

[Goldsmith]

Lily, if you don't have a lead block or are worried about using one then you can also use wooden block shapes or even bits of steel rod with a groove filed in, like I did when making these flower petals.

9317 9316

James

[Lily]

[QUOTE=Goldsmith;89636]Lily, if you don't have a lead block or are worried about using one then you can also use wooden block shapes or even bits of steel rod with a groove filed in, like I did when making these flower petals.

9317 9316
I especially like the wooden block! I just showed it to DH who has a lathe - this opens up a whole new world of possibilities - thank you very much for sharing all of this information James.

[joella]

Hi Lily,
I hope you don't mind me joining your thread - but I think we are both trying to do a similar thing and I had a few questions too. I recently had a bit of long thin rectangular sheet as scrap (I had been going to make a flat bangle textured with a rolling mill paper, but made the rollers too tight and ruined it). Rather than just putting it straight in the scrap pot, I decided to experiment with it. As you can see from the photo's I didn't get it quite right. I turned a little anvil upside down and hammered it on that to get it to curl up at the sides, then just used my fingers to get it into a bangle shape (I don't have a bangle mandrel). I managed to get the curve as high as possible by carefully using parallel pliers to close the gap between the edges quite a bit, then went round with some round nose pliers inside the gap between the edges and pushing/pulling it out at intervals to make the wavy edge. As you can see, there are a couple of dints in it (almost corners) as I wasn't able to get it properly rounded by hand (or maybe I needed to put some wire in it as Dennis had mentioned, to stop it collapsing). Also, I'd like to know how to get the ends finished nicely, rather than cobbled together, as mine are. I quite like the effect, but didn't really know how I should have tackled it. Any comments as to how I should have done this would be most welcome.
93189319

[joella]

Oh, now I come to think of it, I bashed it round an old rolling pin, to get the shape - as I wasn't able to do it by hand!

[Dennis]

Hi Sue,
What you have made is very pretty. But it's in the nature of things, that once you have a tube shape, you cannot make it circular without kinking it, unless the seam is soldered and it is filled with something.
Sand, plastic and a low fusing metal have all been suggested, as has a well fitting copper wire.

Personally, I would not go there as it is far too difficult to get right.

Far better to get a Delrin anticlastic stake (suggested by George) from PS Bond, Cookson or other suppliers on line. You put it into a vice and as you hammer your strip in a chosen groove, the edges will partially close and the strip will take on a bangle shape.

You will never achieve a closed tube, but you will get what you showed above without the kinks and be able to close a small end gap to solder it if required. Dennis.

[ps_bond]

Sorry Dennis - I've closed spiculae after anticlastic forming so that they can be soldered. Takes a little bit of work to do it accurately, but it does the job. Rush it and things get out of round.

Pt 5 here -
http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/anticlastic-raising.htm

[CJ57]

I think this is a book that would be really invaluable to you, it shows metal forming techniques that are quite hard to believe possible and opens up all sorts of avenues. https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Metal-Forming-Betty-Longhi/dp/1929565496/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1472387883&sr=1-1-fkmr1&keywords=Creative+Metal+Forming+Hardcover+%E2%80%9 3+1+Oct+2013+by+Betty+Longhi+%28Author%29%2C+Cynth ia+Eid++%28Author%29. I've posted Amazon US as they are much cheaper

[Dennis]

Sorry Dennis - I've closed spiculae after anticlastic forming so that they can be soldered. Takes a little bit of work to do it accurately, but it does the job. Rush it and things get out of round.

Pt 5 here -
http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/anticlastic-raising.htm

OK peter, I'll change 'will never' to 'might never'. Regards, Dennis.

[joella]

Thanks everyone,

Dennis, thanks for the info, its delrin anticlastic stakes I need then - I'm thinking I need to use metal hammers with delrin rather than nylon ones? and I think its likely that in my case 'will never' is much more likely than 'might never'.

Caroline, thanks for the heads up re the book - it is a bit pricey, so I think its one for the xmas list (if only I can bear to wait that long).

Peter, I only have a tiny 3" vice, do you think it would do or would I need to get a bigger one? Also, would I want to use a metal 'hammock' to hold the stakes in the vice and stop them moving while hammering? I guess I go to your etsy shop to buy the stakes?

Thanks everyone, yet again
Sue

[ps_bond]

Dennis, thanks for the info, its delrin anticlastic stakes I need then - I'm thinking I need to use metal hammers with delrin rather than nylon ones? and I think its likely that in my case 'will never' is much more likely than 'might never'.

Practice, practice and more practice :) You can use Nylon mallets with Delrin, but the metal will move faster if you stick with a metal hammer. A nice long spiculum hammer is a joy to use, but not essential; raising hammers are good for larger forms and James has spoken of modifying cheaper hammers on the forum.


Caroline, thanks for the heads up re the book - it is a bit pricey, so I think its one for the xmas list (if only I can bear to wait that long).

It's a good one - lots of ideas and suggestions on DIY tools.


Peter, I only have a tiny 3" vice, do you think it would do or would I need to get a bigger one? Also, would I want to use a metal 'hammock' to hold the stakes in the vice and stop them moving while hammering? I guess I go to your etsy shop to buy the stakes?

Bigger is always better with a vice, but 3" should work OK. Delrin is a fairly slippery material at the best of times (low coefficient of friction); I've tried putting pins in the sides, but all that did was give them a nice pivot point. Roughing the surface helps keep them in place, but I still need to periodically adjust them. Drilling through the top & installing a bolt & washer to hook in underneath the vice jaw probably works but that would just be copying. Etsy's probably the simplest solution unless you prefer not to use it (in which case, I can do it directly happily enough).

[Lily]

Hi Joella (Sue?)
Of course I don't mind - what you are doing does look similar to the effect I am going for although I have had a bit of a change of plan. The answers you have been given are very helpful to me too though - thanks everyone.

[joella]

Peter,
I've just ordered the small stake from your etsy shop - so I can start all that practice when it arrives! I'm intrigued by the illusiveness of spiculum hammers, I've looked at all the usual uk jewellery tool shops and cant find any, so I'll have to get a small raising hammer instead. I expect I'll need to get a grinder at some point, so I can modify tools as James suggests. Although the stakes with bolts and washers certainly have something going for them, I much prefer the prices of yours :) .

Lily,
Yes it is 'Sue', when I joined the forum I didn't realise that you could just add another letter or number etc to your name if that name had already been used (idiot), (not very au fait with tech and new fangled things like forums), so I squooshed my kids names together and used that instead. Can't wait to see your results when you've made your pod item/s.

Sue.

[ps_bond]

Thanks Sue - Etsy hasn't notified me as yet, but I can see it's gone through. I'll get it packaged up this afternoon & it should go out.

I confess I have 2 of the Michael Good hammers, but I really ought to forge some - http://www.ottofrei.com/Store/Specials/Fretz-Michael-Good-Hammer-Set-of-3.html

[CJ57]

I confess I have 2 of the Michael Good hammers, but I really ought to forge some - http://www.ottofrei.com/Store/Specials/Fretz-Michael-Good-Hammer-Set-of-3.html

Ooh Peter these are lovely! I bought my first Fretz hammers from cookies this year and apart from anything they are wee works of art as well as being great to use. https://www.cooksongold.com/product_detail.jsp?Upd=y&prod_prefix=999&prod_suffix=7185&item=7 https://www.cooksongold.com/product_detail.jsp?Upd=y&prod_prefix=997&prod_suffix=3108&item=8. Can I justify this set :)

[ps_bond]

I'm a terrible influence, sorry :D

[CJ57]

I'm a terrible influence, sorry :D

You are! Move away from the hammers Caroline. But just think what I could do with the book and more hammers

[ps_bond]

I don't tend to recommend books for hammering metal - the bindings don't survive well.

N C Black also make spiculum hammers - http://www.ncblack.com/category/hammers-mallets
I don't have any, but I've heard them raved about.

[Petal]

Peter, I only have a tiny 3" vice, do you think it would do or would I need to get a bigger one? Also, would I want to use a metal 'hammock' to hold the stakes in the vice and stop them moving while hammering? Sue

I have one of Peter's stakes and use a rubber band round it in my vice to stop it moving so much.

Good with your projects, I've enjoyed reading this thread.

[CJ57]

I don't tend to recommend books for hammering metal - the bindings don't survive well.

N C Black also make spiculum hammers - http://www.ncblack.com/category/hammers-mallets
I don't have any, but I've heard them raved about.

I could start a trend:)
They've given some of them names, my Mum would have loved the Bad Betty.
I'd have to be sure of a project before buying any of those and I do rather like the feel of a Fretz handle which probably shouldn't be the main in reason for buying more

[CJ57]

You can't have too many hammers, these are some of mine and a pair of anticlastic stakes sent to me from the states as a present:

9347 9348

James

I had a feeling you might tell me that James, in that case what am I to do :)

[Goldsmith]

I had a feeling you might tell me that James, in that case what am I to do :)

I was trying to add something to my post and I deleted it all by mistake, these are some of my hammers, they need a clean as they have been boxed up for 5 years, the Delron stakes were sent to me when I was testing them for the USA suppliers Cyndy Eid and Betty Longhi.

9349 9350

James

[joella]

You are all a bad influence! I'll remember the tip about the rubber band thanks Jules. So many hammers to choose from, but I think I'll probably get a creasing hammer as what I'm trying to do is quite dainty and I think the raising hammers may be a bit too big. I was given a Fretz goldsmithing hammer as a Xmas present - but there's a chip out of the corner :(
9351
I'm wondering if anyone ever feels they have enough hammers, or whether even James with his wonderful selection still feels he could do with just one more! In fact, the same probably applies to all tools........and books.

Is there a helpline or drying out clinic for this?

[CJ57]

The only way to save yourself is to step away from the forum, any forum. I was led on a road to decline when I joined the GOJD original forum a few years ago. My first ridiculous spend was a swanstrom disc cutter from Rio Grande and the rest is history!

[1711]

I have tool envy... Though those delrin anticlastic things look like dental tools of torture! 😂

I know you have all but dissed the bending tubes thing and I agree using solid wire is generally a big hassle saver.. But you then potentially hit the hallmark issue if you are making to sell? I made an offset bangle and it tips the scales at 8.6 grams.... As I don't make enough stuff to get over minimum packet charges I'd dearly love to avoid hallmarking but then I am worried buyers might be put off a big outlay on an unclassified "silver coloured metal bangle"?

That aside.. Plumbers use a spring bender to form 90 degree corners in copper pipe.. The benefit of spring over simple wire is that it is designed to flex and won't distort or stretch... I might be tempted to use a wire winder and custom make a long spring? Just a thought..

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

[Goldsmith]

Has anyone tried these plumbers small tube benders tools, they are made for bending 6mm. 8mm. and 9mm. diam. copper tubes. See; http://www.screwfix.com/p/mini-tube-bender/17898?kpid=17898&cm_mmc=Google-_-Product%20Listing%20Ads-_-Sales%20Tracking-_-sales%20tracking%20url&gclid=CMv77rL48s4CFcsp0wodyJ4Kjg

Or a better, but dearer version; http://www.screwfix.com/p/irwin-hilmor-multi-mini-tube-bender/28586

James