Soldering on copper tape

[Rachbristol]

Hiya,
I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me about soldering onto copper tape around/on top of gemstone/crystals. I have so far soldered around the copper tape and I'm wondering if there is any way to solder silver over the top? or alternitively seal the solder/foil in any way as its not very solid and can be moved if you push with your nail. I would like it to be a thicker covering and not have the appearance/feel of foil.
Thanks in advance
Rach :)

[Faith]

Hi Rach,

Your post intrigued me as I have never heard of copper tape. Anyway I had a look online for my own amusement and don't know if the video made my this lady http://heymimi.com/how-to-solder-a-memory-glass-pendant/ helps you at all? I have literally no knowledge of the subject tho so it's really a shot in the dark. I can't tell if she's using silver (as in sterling silver) solder tho - but just looking at it I'm thinking not and its more like regular electronics solder.

If I'm way off base maybe give us some more info on what ur trying to do, maybe a pic? :)

Faith

[Dennis]

What Faith's video shows, is a pendant framed in copper foil. The foil is then painted with liquid flux and soft solder applied with a soldering iron, to stiffen and colour it. An appropriate expression would be 'tinning'.

This is a big NO NO for jewellers, because it would contaminate their work space and precious metals.

The equivalent for us is much what Faith is making at present: making a fine silver frame in the required thickness, using high temperature jeweller's solder and when cold and trimmed, rubbing it down over the stone edges.

We would all be happy to answer further questions. welcome to the forum, Dennis.

[Rachbristol]

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for your reply.

I would love to use silver for this. I solder small areas with easy silver solder onto silver already so have all of the equipment.

The only reason I have used copper tape and solder is because I want to achieve the look that the case is tight to all the curves of the stones.

I have found two pictures of examples of what I would like to get to.
9222 9223

I understand that I have to use my gas blowtorch to solder silver and I can't put that kind of heat onto the stones - they will shatter. How would I get the right effect with silver. Is there some kind of super thin soft silver that i can bend around the edge of the stones? Would I solder it in shape first then push the stone inside it. I'm just looking to either do the top or round the edge (not across the back of the stone)

Thank you for help
Rach

[Rachbristol]

Hi Faith,

Thanks for your reply. This is exactly what I have done already but It's very thin and not good at all. It's basically like a thick layer of tin foil, so can easily be peeled off and looks shoddy for a pendant. (I am sure its suitable for a frame like in the vid)

I am hoping to learn a way to have the same kind of result (so the silver is tight around the shape of the stones) but using silver for a sturdier and more professional look.

This is what I'm trying to achieve 9224 9225

Thanks
Rachel

[Dennis]

Yes, and you can do it with annealed fine silver, which you can buy as strip cut from 0.40mm sheet, or from bezel strip, which is about 0.30mm thick but rather flimsy, and very soft when annealed. However it becomes stiff quickly when pushed home.
http://www.cooksongold.com/category_select.jsp?query=bezel+strip&queryFromSuggest=true

[Rachbristol]

Great Thank you.
This is what I was looking for. I have just ordered some.

So in terms of making it would I ...
measure the piece of silver around the stone, cut, solder together and solder jump loop then press around the stone?

Also for the ones that are just silver around the top of the stone. is pushing the silver around it enough? would it need to be glued as well maybe? I would fear it would fall out?

Thanks for your help, Rach



Yes, and you can do it with annealed fine silver, which you can buy as strip cut from 0.40mm sheet, or from bezel strip, which is about 0.30mm thick but rather flimsy, and very soft when annealed. However it becomes stiff quickly when pushed home.
http://www.cooksongold.com/category_select.jsp?query=bezel+strip&queryFromSuggest=true

[Dennis]

Yes, it needs to be a firm fit before you start pushing it. If you think it too loose cut a mm or less out, solder and try again. You might end up doing this two or three times, but slow is best.

The band will be secure if you burnish it down on both back and front. For much bigger stones, use thicker silver. Also look at bezel cup settings, as used for cabochons, where there is a flat plate at the back. Dennis.

[Faith]

Hi Rach,

I'm excited you want to go for the silver approach :) I was a little bit sad to send you the link to the first video.

Anyway:


So in terms of making it would I ...
measure the piece of silver around the stone, cut, solder together and solder jump loop then press around the stone?

Yep that's pretty much it. If it were me, with irregular stones like those in your pics, I'd measure around roughly, erring on the side of a bit too long. Cut that length, anneal really well and the wrap it tight around the stone. You can mark the overlap then quite precisely with a scriber. I position the join on a flattish bit (easier to solder and push over). When you have marked the exact overlap you can cut again and solder and if you don't move it too much it'll be almost the shape it needs to be for the stone.

Also (and I hate to say I do anything different to Dennis - cos he seems always to be right!) I often err a fractional bit too small for my initial solder. Sometimes I find the silver will stretch a smidge just from pushing the stone in, but otherwise you can stretch it a tiny bit by really gently hammering it (with a soft hammer, raw hide etc, against a steel mandrel or the nose of one of those weeny anvils). You have to be super careful if you do that tho as the silver will stretch in all directions (widthwise as well as lengthwise) and you don't want to end up with a bezel of uneven height. Its best (while difficult) to get the length as spot on as possible.

You will want to use harder solder for the join in the bezel then less hard for soldering the jump ring (so you don't open the previous join), and I'd advise positioning the solder seam in the bezel no where near where the jump ring is going.

Re silver around the top of a stone - you want the shape of the stone to lean in a bit from the bezel wall (so when you push the metal tight the stone cant get back out). For an easy example imagine ur stone was a perfect cone. If you put silver around the widest part of the cone, then bend it in to fit flush, the cone cant pull itself back out. If you put silver around the narrow end it could. With real stones it wont be that clear cut, but as long as theres a fatter bit under the silver you'll be okay.

When the silver is going around the stone, ideally the stone will have a bit of a curve to the side so your pushing the metal in over both sides of that curve. If its literally got straight sides, the metal needs to bend over the sides a tiny bit.

Finally this vid might help (this is one I liked when I started making bezels, not a random find!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1c2efq4xfY I think Soham Harrison's tutorials are excellent - just be aware that American jewellers do do a few things differently to us (different kinds of flux etc), but in terms of general principles all his videos are super. He also has lots of others covering cup bezels like Dennis suggested.

Hope you get on well and do show us some pics when you've had a go.

Faith

[Rachbristol]

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for the tip about taking tiny bits out at a time. I'm not sure what burnish it down means? is that a tool?

Thanks Rach

[Rachbristol]

Hi Faith,

Thank you so much for taking the time to write that in such great detail. I feel like I have got my head around it now and after watching the videos I'm ready to give it a go and am so pleased I can use silver. I just need to wait for the silver bezel to arrive and I can get going. I will most definitley post some pics and possibly some questions along the way.

Thank you
Rach

[Rachbristol]

Hi Faith,

So I had a go at the silver bezel. It is by no means near to perfect. I found when I was soldering the join the solder didnt go to the join it kind of went all around the area so that took a few attempts and I also found it very hard to put the jump ring on which made the join open a bit (I used hard and easy solder). I used my third hand but was so tricky. When I bent the bezel around the stone that fixed a little bit. It's def solid enough that it won't break and it can be worn. not as bad as I thought my first attemp would go.

9234

9235

Also for the ones I just want to put silver on the top would I use the same quarter inch bezel or different silver sheet? I'm not sure how it would wrap around the top of a stone and be a surface for a jump ring?

Thanks
Rach

[Faith]

Hi Rach,

Well they aren't bad for a first go :) plus double bezels are much more difficult than regular bezels (I think anyway) AND you have a big irregular stone there so you started with a really tricky one :)

Re the solder join in the bezel, you need to make sure the edges are filed so they fit perfectly before you solder (you shouldn't be able to see light through the join). Then maybe cos your bezels are quite big they could be expanding a bit in the heat so the join opens and then it won't solder. Maybe try this: Once in shape spring fit the join, then anneal it like that with no solder, pickle, spring fit the join again (the springiness will have gone after annealing) and then try soldering. Remember to focus on heating the bezel not the solder and to make sure both sides are the same temperature (don't focus the torch on one side more than the other). If you have any you discarded, practice on them making smaller and smaller bezels (cutting the join out each time) and you'll get it.

Re jump ring, that is indeed a fiddly job, I hold the bezel in my third hand positioned so the solder join is in the third hand jaws, which should serve to heat sink that bit and stop it getting too hot. I have the jaws facing vertically down so the bezel is flat, balance a jump ring on the edge of a soldering block and position the suspended bezel next to it so my hands are free for the actual soldering and nothing should move too much.

Now it's partly a matter of style, but your bezel walls are much higher than they need to be to hold the stone, and that makes for a lot of metal that needs to compress as it goes over & might crinkle. You probably only need about a millimetre or so of silver over the face of the stone to hold it. If your stock bezel is too high emery it down to the right height after soldering. Use rough emery 180 grit ish (or you'll be there forever) put the emery on a steel block (or other hard totally flat surface) and rub the bezel in a figure of 8 motion (or it'll reduce wonky).

For your ones with metal around the top, there are probably other ways but I'd make a funny shape cup bezel for em. Google Soham Harrison's basic bezel tutorial for a start :) The flat base of your bezel would actually be on top of your stone, with the jump ring soldered on, and the bezel wall around the stone. For height, once you've soldered the bezel wall, push it around the top of the stone, make sure it's lined up with the top edge and flip ur stone over to see how much gap there is between the lower edge of the bezel wall and the stone. You only need to push it in a bit to set it so if the gap is pretty big, take it off and emery it down some more.

If it helps here's a photo (it's not awesome quality) of a 8mm tourmaline in its setting before I pushed the metal in, so you can see the size of the gap on that one.

9237

Best of luck and let us know how you get on :)

Faith

[Faith]

Hey again,

Here's the link to Part 1 of Sohams vid on normal cup bezels: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7rbhTrOtdNY

I'd use somin like 0.5mm thick sterling sheet for the bezel base (which would be your roof). One thing tho - Soham puts his solder inside the bezel wall to solder to the base - that's fine for him he's excellent at it - but til you're super confident put your solder all the way around the outside. That way if you get any messy left over lumpy bits they aren't in the way of your stone and will get filed away. Also don't heat from the top like her does at all, do the whole thing heating from below in circles inside the where u think the bezel wall is. By heating inside the solder gets sucked in and by heating from below u won't damage ur bezel wall (which will be more apt to melt than his as its thinner).

Faith

[Rachbristol]

Hi Faith,

That makes alot more sense about soldering the join. I followed your instructions and have now successfully cracked it, also makes way more sense to do the jump ring like that I was trying to hold both in the third hand - was way too fiddily.

Yeah I was also thinking the silver was too high around the stone I will most definitely fix that your pic is helpful to see how much I need extra.

Soham's video's are great have watched a few now and he is very thorough I have learnt alot - Thanks for that tip.

Am going to have a good go at making a silver cup for my stone now. I will post some pics - may take a while!

thanks so much for your advice Faith :)

[1711]

Good grief... This is the first and second things I was taught in lessons.. I mean that as in "Oh wow... I can do that! 😆'

Pre made bezel cups work fine for regular shaped and sized cabochons... Cooksons also sell some neat tension setting loops I will have to look up the link... These would work for semi irregular pieces..

For the random stuff (sea glass for example) a tension set Bezel is doable if you take your time and remember to work on both the front and rear of the stone as well. As alternating opposing sides... This keeps the tension of your metal band even.

If your stone or cabochon is thin enough the 3mm fine silver bezel is great.. If not just order sheet metal in strips... I get my 0.4 mm sheet cut 4mm wide and a metre long for bezel cups.

This will generally only work for pieces with external curves as it is the tension of the metal that holds a set piece in place.. I have set a shallow indent on a heart but only on a backed bezel

If you make (or buy) a solid backed bezel cup you can always pierce the back then cut and file it out leaving a narrow rim.. You can match the outline of the stone/cab or cut a shape.. I often do, a random organic shape for mine.

Lastly.. The simplest way to set a rim round a flatter stone or cabochon is bearer wire...

It is good for gentle curves.. Has a micro ledge inside that supports the stone and a very narrow profile so you see much more of the object you are setting



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[1711]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160903/6e01a4de68de9a2788aee39659b0ed51.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160903/5fcb6338f7bcb8d12cebb6fdaa801282.jpg

Set on bearer wire.. Front and reverse view..

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160903/e7e88a33a59b65022bb6a61ee9b6cf90.jpg

Bezel cup opened at the reverse to allow the back to be viewed



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[Dennis]

Good grief... This is the first and second things I was taught in lessons.. I mean that as in "Oh wow... I can do that! 😆'Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Many of our members were college taught and some have found that their tutors struggled to demonstrate what they were trying to teach. Dennis.

[Patstone]

Yes Dennis, I am one of those. College one night a week for 10 weeks doesnt do a lot as far as teaching stone setting. I have learnt most of what I know from you guys and videos, that was about 6 years ago now, so still learning as I go but have mastered the techniques in my head on most but still struggle to put them into practice.

[1711]

Many of our members were college taught and some have found that their tutors struggled to demonstrate what they were trying to teach. Dennis.
I didn't go to college I just have lessons privately - although coincidentally from the person who ran evening classes locally... I guess I was just lucky and she threw me in at the deep end? Lol

I wasn't suggesting it's basic stuff.. Just that little me exploring books and videos with a few lessons chucked in here and there; for once has already done it.. Most of what you guys do is way past my pay grade and understanding! [emoji1]

Mind you I was already depressed that there's no longer term learning path near enough for me to consider... (I can't give up work for a full time course) and now you are telling me what is out there isn't always worthwhile... [emoji32]

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[Rachbristol]

Hi,
Sorry I haven't checked this for a while. Thankyou very much for your advice 1711. Will have another bash at it :)

[CoraDias]

Hi...in my case I err a fractional bit too small for my initial solder. Sometimes I find the silver will stretch a smidge just from pushing the stone in, but otherwise you can stretch it a tiny bit by really gently hammering it.

[ps_bond]

You are aware this is a post from 2016?