Pesky bezels

[Faith]

Hello there,

So I'm repeating a number of projects to build experience, and currently am back in the soldering bezel wire phase of bezel making. In my previous first attempts I was rather happy if the bezel wire soldered at all and didn't melt, but now I'm shooting for better.

I've been trying to get my ends as straight and flush as possible and *thought* they were, but a couple of my bezel wires have tiny gaps appeared at the top and bottom of the solder seam. I'm wondering if its the same thing as with rings - the metal is springing apart slightly and I need to anneal them first, but they do seem strong - I have successfully rounded on the bezel mandrel and pushed in tight fitting stones and the seams seem solid apart from the tiny notchy gaps.

The bezel walls are also made a bit high and I'm planning to file/emery them top and bottom to the exact right height so the little notchy bits will file out.

So I'm wondering - are there any tips to avoid said notchy bits, but also how much do I need to worry about them, are they a sign that the whole join isn't great or should they be okay after filing?

Many thanks,

Faith

[Dennis]

Faith, the notchy bits are peculiar to you, although they should not occur if the ends fit well and you use enough solder.

You are dealing with it by starting too wide and filing some away. The part which sits on the base plate will fill anyhow when you solder again.

It is possible that your problem is occurring because your strip is the kind which is sold ready made and therefore very thin. This might then melt slightly and pull away.

If you don't do so already, you will find cutting your own strip from 0.4mm fine silver sheet (or 0.5mm For larger stones) makes the strip much easier to manage. Dennis.

[Faith]

Hi Dennis,


Faith, the notchy bits are peculiar to you...

Before I develop quite an inferiority complex - did you mean the notchy bits are not perculiar to me!?

I had another go (just for fun) making sure the edges fit perfectly, I annealed it first for good measure and used more solder (too much in fact it turns out). No notchy bits, but the whole section with the solder join shrank slightly (and I wasn't focusing the heat on the join).

I am however, as you guessed, using pre-made extra melty bezel wire ;). I actually find it really good, when I don't melt it, and it's meant to be 0.3mm thick. If I were to cut my own though, how would I cut the strips from sheet? I am reminded here of a comment of yours when I was reading about James' titanium soldering clamps, along the lines of you can pierce or you can't but a new saw won't help. I am rather in the second camp - if there's a way to saw in a straight line, I haven't found it....

Thanks :)
Faith

[Dennis]

Well the 0.3mm bezel wire is too thin for most of us and liable to melt slightly, or distort when heated. It helps though, to partly close the air hole of your torch to get a cooler flame and to solder in semi darkness, which allows you to monitor any over heating.

Why dont you try again and pierce a strip. You will find you mostly need 2.0-2.5 mm wide strips. Alternatively, if you have access to a rolling mill, you can gently roll down fine silver wire to make suitable stock for bezels.

1.0mm round will roll down to 1.5 x 0.4mm
1.5mm round will roll down to 2.0 x 0.5mm
2.0x1.0 rectangular will roll down to 2.2 x 0.5mm Dennis.

[Faith]

Alas no rolling mill, not yet anyway...

So would it be this kind of sheet to go for: http://www.cooksongold.com/Sheet/Fine-Silver-Sheet-0.40mm-Half-Hard-Max.-500mm-X-500mm-prcode-CSF-040 (and anneal it myself)? Cookson don't appear to have a pre-annealed option.

8mm stones tend to be the biggest I'm setting at the moment, so I figured 0.4 rather than 0.5mm.

Ta as always
Faith

[enigma]

I use the fine silver sheet,( Thanks Dennis! ) Cooksons sell it in various thicknesses and widths from 3mm wide so being lazy I buy 3mm, 4mm, 5mm and 7mm widths in corresponding thickness from 0.3mm to 0.5mm.
I would probably go for 0.5mm on an mm stone myself.
I suspect you are just overheating the metal slightly causing it to start to curl/melt at the edges, you do need to be very careful with 0.3mm sheet.

[Faith]

Oh well that's a nifty idea Sarah, do Cookson cut strips that accurately? I always assumed you got roughly the dimensions you ordered but not millimetre perfect?

[ps_bond]

Are any of the stones you're making the bezels for millimetre perfect? :)

[Dennis]

Sarah's advice is just what you need at present Faith. You can always order samples of both thicknesses to see which one suits you.

The strip will also be a little too wide at 3mm, because you need to expose as much of the stone as possible. However you can rub it on flat emery paper once you have soldered the ends together. Traditionally it is done by following a figure of eight path, for an even reduction.
It also helps to file a bevel around the top outside edge.

Once all this is done make sure the round shape is restored before soldering on the base. Then if trying in the stone again, lay a longish piece of dental floss across the floor, to yank it out by, or it is likely to stick. Dennis.

[Faith]

Are any of the stones you're making the bezels for millimetre perfect? :)
Yeah, alright :)

Well it seems I have some shopping to do, I'll get some 3mm strips and have a go with those.

I was going to ask about the bevelling - I have read about doing that but never have as my pre-made bezel wire didn't seem like it needed it. I presume its just to tidy up the edge and make it neater, rather than being necessary to push the metal over the stone?

I ask that because I'm just trying to gauge how much bevelling is required with the thicker strip?

Thanks for everyone's advice :)
Faith

[Dennis]

Yes, bevel until the upper rim has a knife edge and you will reduce the amount of work once the stone is set

However it is a matter of choice and style. You could prefer to have a flat topped rim. A saw cut rim just finished with a burnisher is yet a different effect.

[Faith]

Thanks Dennis,

That's what I was getting at - whether the bevelling was mainly preference or an absolute necessity to set the stone effectively :). The haematite ring is gorgeous btw!

Faith

[enigma]

Those are lovely Dennis!
Yes Cooksons are pretty accurate at cutting, certainly enough for what you need as you will need to finish the height yourself anyway as Dennis says.

[Faith]

Thanks Sarah, the strips came today and I'm amazed, 2.99mm by my calipers and perfectly parallel! The width is actually more accurate than the thickness!

Back to bezel making I go :)
Faith

[enigma]

Have fun! :)

[Faith]

Well I'm not finished yet, but just to say, that's way better! I've used the 0.4mm cut sheet (as it actually measured 0.45 so it seemed like a good starting point) and it soldered perfectly :)
Thanks again
Faith

[Faith]

Could I ask a related follow up question?

I'm soldering my lovely new bezel to a 1.5mm round wire ring. I'll file a little flat bit with mitre jig, but I've been struggling to support the ring while soldering. the third hand holds steady centred on back of bezel but it's very hard to get the ring exactly vertical. I've had to reflow the solder every time I've done it before to true the angle and the extra heating and pressure has dented the bezel back a tiny bit.

In the absence of any other idea I was planning to dip the flat bit in borax, position (hope it will balance) and very carefully dry the flux to hold it. Then add palions and solder it. I'll test that first but just wondering if there are any better tips.

Many thanks
Faith

[enigma]

I would melt the solder onto the back of the bezel first, reflux everything and place on the ring and remelt the solder onto the ring.
Hope that makes sense

[Faith]

Hi Sarah,
Okay so like a sweat soldering approach, how would you support the ring shank though? I think I'd struggle to hold it, and I can't seem to keep it straight (perfectly vertical) with my third hand?
Many thanks
Faith

[Dennis]

This is a crucial part Faith, because there is nothing worse than a crooked result. So you must be sure the bezel cup is right in place before you solder.

A simple way is binding wire, put over and under and twisted on both sides until it just holds. This will allow you to adjust the position before finally tightening a bit more. It can be frustrating, because the wire breaks and can also mark you work if too tight. So another learning curve.

Another way is to make soldering clamps, like the greenish one top right in the picture. You can buy the material here or use 1.0mm stainless steel sheet:http://tamizan.co.uk/knew-concept-saws/

[Faith]

Thanks Dennis, I'll have an experiment with binding wire perhaps (although I am considering getting some of those little titanium strips (can I use my "normal" tools to shape the titanium - ie it's not a contaminate btw?).

fortunately I have both a discarded bezel cup (of the nice melty wire) and a slightly disappointing shank to do a practice run with first!

Thanks :)
Faith

[enigma]

I am probably really quite terrible but I position my ring shanks in soldering tweezers balanced on the block and then balance the bezel on top and adjust if necessary as the solder flows.
Terribly untechnical Im afraid but I am a fan of using gravity to do the work.

[Dennis]

I am considering getting some of those little titanium strips. can I use my "normal" tools to shape the titanium - ie it's not a contaminate btw? Faith

It's not a serious problem, as you don't use many tools. It is unlikely to clog a file, although files can be cleaned, to be sure, with a little square of copper sheet, which forms a kind of comb when you use it. Grit on the bench can be swept away and a saw blade can be discarded, as it will become blunt anyway.

Sarah's method shows that there are many ways to skin a rabbit. People with sure hands can do that, but I need to be hands free. Dennis.

[Faith]

Thanks both :)

I think I'll need a find a good hands free way too, I don't really have the steadiest hand!

PS ta re the tool usage advice, I'm just about to get some copper sheet for that as I've found there's something about filing silver with the mitre jig that really clogs the file.

Thanks again, I'll let you know how I get on!
Faith

[Stacey]

Hi Faith

Most of the time I use your method of holding the ring shank against the back of the bezel with a third hand, however, I've learned to spend LOTS of time setting it up so the shank is centered correctly. First, I mark the base of the bezel with a permanent marker (disappears with heat) in four spots on it's edge which help me locate the spot where I want the shank to sit. Then, I set the ring up on my soldering block so that I can look around it before applying heat. I am always amazed at how the shank can look true from one angle, but off centre at another angle. Ideally you want to look from the front, sides and back ... although three angles will do. Of course, you want to position yourself so you can clearly see the bezel base and ring shank ... in other words, you can't look from the top down, you need to squat down or whatever to make sure you have the right line of sight.

[Faith]

Thanks Stacey :) - in the end I couldn't get it with binding wire at all so I went for this:

9073

With lots and lots of peering around.

And now I have a little glum face. Of my test bezels I got another crooked one, managed to unsolder it, next attempt crooked, then somehow fuzed it to the side of the ring rather than the top while trying to get it back off again. Test bezel 2 finally ended up straight. Actual ring is straight too, but not centred :(

Moreover i have a design flaw, I'm trying to make two separate stone set rings so that when worn together the stones sit diagonally to each other (bezel 1 overhangs ring 2, bezel 2 overhangs ring 1). However by filing even the tiniest flat bit on the shank, the bezel then sits lower than the height of the other shank. I need it to be the same or higher, but only very subtley. So I'm a bit stumped, and as forementioned, glum :(

[Dennis]

I wonder whether the height of the bezels could have been checked with callipers? I can do nothing without referring to mine.

If you dont have them, six inch electronic ones are best and you can find bargains in places such as Proops and Maplin. Even the cheapest ones work fine, but I would avoid plastic ones for reasons of wear.

As far as positioning the bezel on the ring is concerned, you can get close by marking crossed lines on the bezel with a ruler and a waterproof pen. This does not interfere with soldering.

However, nothing is quite as good as finally inspecting the position the right way up. Hence my suggestion of binding wire or special clamps. Dennis.

[Faith]

Sorry Dennis, I didn't mean the height of the bezel wall, I mean the height of the back of the bezel as measured from the inside of the ring. I need my bezel to sit at least as high as the profile of the wire, praps a smidge higher so I can have two sort of interlocking stone set rings. Currently my bezel sits very slightly lower than the profile of the wire because I filed a tiny flat bit.

I've seen overt ways to do it, little silver balls between the ring and the bezel for example, but I don't need much height...

Possibly I should give up on the design, it's only for me, it just motivates me to learn by trying to make things I like!

PS I have got calipers :) and will try the cross marking approach next time :)

Any ideas appreciated, thanks :)

Faith

[enigma]

Often I find that the bezel will move slightly as the solder melts hence why I like to do it the right way up and adjust as needed.
I also find that binding wire and clamps can move as they heat although I know not everybody seems to have that problem so it may be due to the way I apply the heat.
In any case I doubt that most of the lesser experienced among us always get it right first time whichever method we use , I know I don't.
Just keep practising is my advice and trying different methods :)

[Faith]

Thanks Sarah :)

Re the interlocking issue I have, is it necessary to file a flat bit on the shank to solder to the bezel, or will there be enough meniscus to hold it without?

Thankyou :)
Faith

[Dennis]

It won't be as strong Faith, but then how strong do you need it? As it's just for you, you won't want your money back if it breaks. Just be generous with the solder and it will probably be fine. Dennis.

[Faith]

Ha ha, no I don't get to ask for my money back!

Thanks Dennis, I didn't think it would be as strong but I can't thin the band so it's that or add some very tiny shoulders.

I tried soldering two prongs of the same guage wire (layed out flat) sticking out from the shank, then filed it them back to almost level with the shank and soldered that onto a little scrap bit of plate (I've run out of test bezels). it worked but wasn't very tidy looking!

[Faith]

Well hallelujah!!! I have a bezel on a ring, it's centred it's upright, it fits over the other rings nicely and the solder seam is about 4mm long so with a bit of luck it won't fall off!

Thanks everyone :)

PS used the cross technique this time, and it worked very well, also used a bit of chain with a bead on the end as the worlds tiniest plumb bob to check for straightness.

Thanks again :)
Faith

[metalsmith]

Well hallelujah!!! I have a bezel on a ring,

... used a bit of chain with a bead on the end as the worlds tiniest plumb bob to check for straightness.

Faith

Would like to have seen that! You'll have to do a re-enactment for a photo!

Congratulations btw ;)

[Faith]

Thanks Metalsmith :) and noted, I have another ring to make after this one so I'll take a pic!

If only there was a growing market for tiny silver plumb bobs - i'd be sorted :)

Faith

[David_Amos]

Hi all
I'm new here, I've joined At The Bench by Andrew Berry and i remembered he was soldering a bezel onto a ring using a pair of special tweezers. If you do a web search for "Locking Head and Shank Tweezers" you might find they could do the job you want.
Hope this helps
David

[Faith]

Hi David, welcome to the forum :)

Well I must say I've never seen those before! Not expensive either, I may get some just because I'm intrigued! Be interesting actually to see how much heat they draw away as it's quite a big bit of metal with two contact points (and I only have a little torch), but maybe that reduces the chance of getting your bezel too hot.

Thanks for the tip!
Faith

[Faith]

Hello :) I'm going to post over here so's not to pinch Susan's thread, but I've just read the link to James' lapis cab ring thread & all the comments (http://www.cooksongold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6295) and (as well as being brilliant) its raised a question for me.

I'm just about to set a little tourmaline in my newly created ring, I've put the stone in the setting (and its really not coming back out) but haven't done anything else yet.

Have I made a mistake not mirror polishing the top edge of the bezel cup? (it is perfectly even and level and emery-ed).

I have never polished the top edge before - but then given the pre-made bezel wire was so fragile I never imagined that it would stand up to a polishing mop - so I just contented myself to burnish as much as possible once the stone was set. Now I'm using a sturdier bezel wall should I have polished the top edge with my radial disks as well as the rest of the piece?

And given that I haven't polished the top edge this time, am I better off trying to do it carefully (with radial disks maybe) before I push the bezel over, or just burnish as before.

Many thanks as always - nearly there :)
Faith

[Goldsmith]

Faith, I just close the setting and then clean up the rub over bezel, I usually use my hammer head attatchment on my pendant drill for closing the bezels so when closed the bezel setting has marks all around the rub over area. I carefully file the rub over, using a very fine needle file, then I polish the setting using a bristle brush with Tripoli compound, before the final polish using a soft swansdown mop dabbed with a little rouge compound.

A couple of my daughter's other bezel set rings shows the finish I can achieve.

9090

James

[Faith]

Thanks James, so you polish after the stone is set - I hadn't been doing that.

I have Tripoli and rouge and baby dremel mops for them but have recently been lured away (thanks to Dennis!) by radial disks, mainly because I'm working in my home and they're so clean.

Might anyone know if radial disks are okay to use near a set stone? they wont scratch my little tourmaline? alternatively I can do as you say and go back to compound for a final polish (resurrecting my cardboard box dust hood).

Thanks :)
Faith

[Faith]

Oh PS I should have said - those rings are beautiful! Your daughter is very lucky :)
Faith

[Goldsmith]

Oh PS I should have said - those rings are beautiful! Your daughter is very lucky :)
Faith

She does like her ring collection. This her watching the Olympics a few years back.

9091

James

[Faith]

Brilliant :)

[metalsmith]

the Five Olympic rings meets the united colours

[Faith]

So close :(

So here it is (poor little thing):

9092

Worried about the solder seam between shank and bezel I thought it would be a good idea to cocoon the whole ring in thermoloc to hold in the vice with just the top part of the bezel poking out... Bad bad plan. I ended up with only half (vertically) of the bezel wall pushed over, a loose stone and a nasty line around the middle where scratched by the edge of the setting tool. It took hours to fix (just holding it in the vice like I should have in the first place) and the stone is still not 100 solid).

Also I think all the extra work has damaged the bezel wall, the top edge isn't smooth. I haven't filed it yet, but will filing get that out? Can I even file that close to the stone... I guess perhaps this is what folks use a scorper for, but frankly that seems beyond my ability, would anything else tidy it up?

Many thanks
:( Faith

[Dennis]

It doesn't look so bad in the picture Faith and your main complaint seems to be that you aren't an ace setter yet. Well some, including myself, never will be, but we improve over time.

Yes you can file close to the stone and many of us do, by grinding and polishing one safe edge on a half round, or flat needle file with stones and rubber wheels. Use it quite lightly and go slowly so as not to slip.

Afterwards finish with a burnisher also slowly and carefully and then with fine and extra fine rubber/silicone wheels of small diameter. Dennis.

[enigma]

Totally agree with Dennis, stone setting is really hard IMO and takes lots and lots of practise this really doesn't look bad for an early attempt to me.
Ive been working on it for a couple of years now and still often have problems getting a really neat edge around the stone.
Some stones like diamonds and sapphires you can file very close to without worrying about damaging but most stones will mark if the file touches them so you have to be very careful.
Keep practising and try and learn from your mistakes each time as far as possible but don't be disheartened , stone setting is a very specialist skill that takes lots of practise to be decent at.

[enigma]

BTW I don't know if it would be useful for you and its a bit primitive but I place my rings on a mandrel on a sandbag for setting and it works ok for me.

[Faith]

Thanks both :)

out of interest will fine emery scratch a stone? 1200 or 2000 grit perhaps? I was just wondering if that might be a safer way to tidy up the edge right next to the stone. Obviously there'd be no way to do it without touching the stone - hence the question. Or is it just a bad idea.

Also thanks for the encouragement this one is better than my previous attempts (or which there are less than 5) so hopefully practice will make perfect

Thanks
Faith

[enigma]

Yes it very likely will scratch depending what the stone is of course.
You can , if you are careful, file everything except the inside edge without touching the stone, the inside edge would need cleaning up with a scorper if there are rough bits or a burnisher.
It is best really though to try and keep the inside edge smooth when setting if you can ( not that Im saying thats easy LOL)

[Faith]

Thanks Sarah,

I'm not ruling out scorpering - not for all time - but I think I'd need a deal of practice (it looks very difficult) so I think I'll have to get the inside edge as good as I can with a burnisher.

Annoyingly I had quite a nice looking inside edge before I discovered the thermoloc disaster! Next time perhaps :)

Ta for the tip about setting on a mandrel too, I think that's probably not my problem tho, the grs vice has nice smooth jaws and holds a shank well with the bezel flat on the top, I just wasn't brave enough to trust my solder - which was silly - turned out that part was fine!

Thanks again :)
Faith

[Goldsmith]

Hi Faith, if you are going to have a go at using a scorper to clean a bezel top, have you seen this info sheet I prepared. It shows how I prepare my scorpers for use; http://www.cooksongold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5576

I use a polished cutting face scorper to clean up my bezel edges when needed, I polish the cutting face by rubbing it flat on Emory papers on my flat steel block.

9093 9095 9094

James

[Faith]

Thanks James - oh I see, they don't come with the little pointy snout like in your photos, or sharpened apparently :s

I think I might be overreaching here, I'm not sure I have the tools to grind it or sharpen it (I'm confused even by the different widths available) and I'm not sure I'd know what to do with it after I made it! I imagine there's some technique in cutting a perfectly even little bit of metal off without catching the stone but google is not yielding up much in the way of highly magnified slow motion videos of people scorpering a bezel for me...

[enigma]

Yes I cheated and had my instructor shape mine on a stone setting course I did and Im still rubbish at using it LOL
Bit it does come in handy if you have just a small sliver of metal that needs removing which can happen if you mess up.

[Faith]

hmmm see on this ring its not so much that theres any particular bit of metal I'd take of, the top edge of the bezel is just ever so slightly wiggly i suppose, and I'm talking really tiny, it looks straight to look at it, but the top edge doesn't shine as one piece of metal, it looks sparkley from all the tiny tiny wiggles....

[enigma]

In that case I would use a burnisher anyway personally, if you use an agate one it shouldn't mark your stone.

[Faith]

So I have burnished it quite a lot - so just humouring me for second - can you offer any description of how you'd burnish the top edge?

For reference I've never been shown how to do it, so i tend to kind of rub backwards and forwards little sections at a time around the stone trying to push the bumps out.

Thanks Sarah :)

[Faith]

Well I had a go, more burnishing, and not sure if this is better of just different - better photo now tho:

9099

You can see where the edges are still wiggly, the wiggles are impervious!

Faith

[Dennis]

Well that's what burnishing does Faith. Whatever way you do it, the gaps will close more, but the edges become more wavy.

Here is when a professional would use a scorper, which is no use in my hands.

A desperate amateur would use sandpaper and damage the stone.

Some one like me would have a safe edged needle file at the ready and and file in contact with the stone, but pressing down on the metal rim, going slowly all the way round until the bumps are gone. Most stones can take this if you are careful.

A medium cut half round is easiest to prepare, along the left edge, if you are right handed. Do it first on a grinding wheel, a sharpening stone, the rough bottom of a ceramic tile, or whatever you have. Finish on grades of sand paper until it is really smooth and shiny. The file will remain useful for normal purposes but have this special application. Below is the link to one.

http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Cooksongold-16cm-Needle-File-Half--Round-Cut-2-prcode-997-2808 Dennis

[Faith]

Thanks Dennis,

Would one of these do the initial smoothing of the edge: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Silverline-CB14-Silicon-Carbide-Combination-Sharpening-Stone-Fine-Medium-Grade-/252409473888?hash=item3ac4c6eb60:g:y48AAOSwdj9XTk4 p ?

Sorry I've never tried to grind anything or otherwise do anything to steel tools before so its bit of a foray into the unknown for me!

Ta again :) Faith

[ps_bond]

I'd be inclined to suggest diamond sharpeners instead - they're more tolerant of very hard steels like files (cheap oilstones are not, they break down too quickly).

[Faith]

Thanks Peter,

More like this then: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CT0823-4-5-3PC-Diamond-Sharpening-Stone-Set-Fine-Extra-Fine-Coarse-Whetstone-/201455968819?hash=item2ee7b62233:g:SQ0AAOSwl9BWLlW c ? There are also diamond ones that (forgive me) look a bit like a cheese grater in the pictures...

Faith

[Dennis]

Yes Peter's right: those will do fine but I would suggest you continue afterwards to get the best shine possible so that the file cannot abrade the stone. I would finish with a silicone wheel myself, say the black and the blue. They will also need a mandrel with a screw.

If you find this idea helpful, then later you will probably adapt some other shaped needle files too-particularly a flat one, which takes longer to do, but is easier to use without slipping.

http://www.cooksongold.com/category_select.jsp?query=silicone+wheel

The silicone wheels have other uses, particularly giving a high shine to metal edges. The sharpening plate will sharpen tools such as scorpers, and also serve to grind things like the base of a bezel to be perfectly flat. Diamond surfaces and silicone wheels are natural companions, as the wheels can be re-shaped on diamond plates without damage.

I hope I am not leading you astray to spend all the house keeping. Dennis.

[Faith]

Hi Dennis,

LOL! no, your advice is much appreciated and rest assured I wont bankrupt myself with little rubber wheels and sharpening stones :). The greater problem is that I'm terribly impatient and my sharpening stones will not arrive til later next week :s.

I'm hoping these bits would also allow me to polish a burnisher, um one of these: http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Burnisher-Curved-With-Handle-prcode-999-AJL which I noticed had developed a little worn flattish bit where its used most.

Faith :)

[Dennis]

Yes those silicon rubber wheels are good for that. You will find no end of uses for them. Dennis.

[Faith]

Okay then, sold :) I'll let you know in a few days how I get on smoothing my new file!

Ta again, Faith

[Aurarius]

I'd still try and have a go at making a scorper/graver if I were you, Faith. I made my first graver out of an old flat needle file and it revolutionised my standard of finish. For the record, it made a 2.5mm flat graver.

Cleaning up and bright-cutting bezel tops is one thing gravers are good for; cleaning off flashings on prong tips is another. I don't really think there is any other tool besides a graver that you can use to effectively trim flashing from around prong tips after they've been fully pushed down on to a stone.

An arkansas stone is the standard way of finishing the working edges of a graver, but there are plenty of other things you can use. Besides an arkansas stone I use pieces of goatskin leather glued flesh side up on to a piece of MDF. One piece of leather has valve-grinding paste rubbed into it, and the other has polishing compound.

Keep things sharp and bright, give yourself time to practise your cutting technique, and improvement will come.

[Dennis]

That's the right advice Mark. But I'm a heretic. In olden days I would have been banned from the guild, or even put to the stake.

If I see a small tag of metal I take a fresh craft knife to it. Dennis.

[Aurarius]

That's the right advice Mark. But I'm a heretic. In olden days I would have been banned from the guild, or even put to the stake.

If I see a small tag of metal I take a fresh craft knife to it. Dennis.
A fresh craft knife is just a thin and flimsy graver, really, of a less than ideal shape. I'm sure it works for some jobs.
I should have said my homemade graver is actually only 1mm wide at the tip, not 2.5mm. I was guessing last night.

[Faith]

Oh goodness so there are gravers as well as scorpers now!

I'm not adverse to learning and practising, but I'd want to practice a lot on scrap and test bezels before trying it on a ring that's fairly good anyway - for that Dennis's filing method feels safer.

My main concern is that, apart from my soon to be new sharpening stones, I have nothing to cut and shape steel. The cooksons gravers at least seem to come the right shape at the end appart from the handle being too long, but I'd have no idea how to cut the end off and finish it. Sharpening I'd maybe be okay with, I think I'd go for the stone over the goat tho!

Also I don't really no how to use such a thing.

Are there any good books on this?

Faith

[Dennis]

Oh goodness so there are gravers as well as scorpers now! Faith

They're the same thing Faith, but just refers to the purpose you use them for. James miller has a lot of posts for setting them up and might be able to link you to them.

Basically, they are broken off to the length that suits your hand, and ground to a spike to insert into the handle, which you buy separately. The business end is tempered and sharpened for engraving, or cutting bearers, or finishing bezels etc.

When I went on a four day course at Cass to learn this, most of the first two days were spent on setting up. Then we did some set exercises in copper. Some participants were quite good at this, but it seemed plain to me that I would need more practice for weeks to come. Disheartened, I never came to grips with it.

Dennis.

[Goldsmith]

Oh goodness so there are gravers as well as scorpers now!

I'm not adverse to learning and practising, but I'd want to practice a lot on scrap and test bezels before trying it on a ring that's fairly good anyway - for that Dennis's filing method feels safer.

My main concern is that, apart from my soon to be new sharpening stones, I have nothing to cut and shape steel. The cooksons gravers at least seem to come the right shape at the end appart from the handle being too long, but I'd have no idea how to cut the end off and finish it. Sharpening I'd maybe be okay with, I think I'd go for the stone over the goat tho!

Also I don't really no how to use such a thing.

Are there any good books on this?

Faith

Faith, here in the UK a graver is a square or lozenge shaped cutting tool used for engraving lines,letters and pictures. A scorper is a similar tool with a larger body shape and has various cutting faces,usually flat or halfround, there are also scorpers called spitzstick and bullstick which are eliptical and oval in shape. I have dozens of scorpers collected over the years, I mostly used them for carving crests and such like, I have also lots of gravers as I also engraved items in the past. Those in the USA call them all gravers though.

The first photo shows one of my prepared scorpers and a rub over setting that has had the top edge cut clean with the scorper, the puma engraving is a practice piece I did 50 years ago.

This is a book I learned many methods from;http://www.cooksongold.com/Books/Engraving-On-Precious-Metals-By-A--Brittain-And-P-Morton-prcode-999-AMP

9109 9110

James

[metalsmith]

there are plenty of other things you can use. Besides an arkansas stone I use pieces of goatskin leather glued flesh side up on to a piece of MDF. One piece of leather has valve-grinding paste rubbed into it, and the other has polishing compound.

Just picking up on the detail here, you recommend (or at least use) flesh side out leather. Any particular reason for that? It's just, I'm reading Gerald Benney Goldsmith and he recommended flesh side in, but only on the basis that theoretically, the inside, in and the outside out, may be as nature intended, slightly more robust.

[metalsmith]

I think I'd go for the stone over the goat tho!


Then you might be missing a trick. The goat leather is primed with polish that will be grades finer than the diamond block and so achieve a much finer polish.

These (they, at least) are voices of considerable experience.

[Faith]

My apologies Metalsmith, I didn't mean the diamond sharpening stone, but the arkansas stone that Aurarius cited as the tradional way of preparing the graver edge. I may have misread but it looked as though the goat leather was offered as an alternative, but having neither currently not to mention value grinding paste, the arkansas stone just sounded easier to obtain on the face of it.

I certainly didn't mean to question the advice, I genuinely thought it was a choice, and am incredibly grateful for all the help from such experienced people.

James - many thanks for the link to the book, I'll have a look at that. I'm hoping it will also contain advice about the heavier aspects of the preparation, I.e how to remove the excess length of the handle etc, which I still feel slightly at a loss about with the equipment I have.

Many thanks for everyone's advice,
Faith

[metalsmith]

No apology needed on my count, and I doubt anyone else took offense either.

It is just as you'd go up grades of polish from tripoli to rouge (or to other polishes should you so desire), with silver. Arkansas stone would be the coarser grade cut / polish and the leather & rouge would be so fine as to polish without any observable grinding.

HTH

[ps_bond]

If you cut a manilla folder into thirds, damp it with alcohol (meths or IPA) and crayon some green rouge onto it & let it dry, that also gives a good strop for polishing graver heels & the like.
(Courtesy of Blaine Lewis)

[Goldsmith]

In my youth my first job was working at a goldsmiths company making mostly regalia. The stars of the UK regalia such as KBE, GBE, KCB, GCB, etc all had the silver body fronts facetted by using polished scorpers, this is when I first started using scorpers.

After sharpening the scorper on an Arkansas oilstone we used to polish the cutting face by rubbing the scorper sideways on a flat piece of 4/0 Emery paper held on a steel block, this gave a good shine to the surface and kept the cutting edge straight.

Here is a supplier of Emery paper, £3.60 for 10, A4 size sheets;https://www.manchesterminerals.co.uk/acatalog/EMERY-PAPER-4-0-94_065.html

This is a KCB star, as you can see there were hundreds of scorper cuts on each star to create the facets on the silver.

9123

James

[Faith]

Thanks everyone :)

I think I'll start by getting myself a 1mm flat scorper (some of the older threads recommend that size for bezels) and a handle for it. Then I'll see how I get on shortening it and fitting the handle (and have a look at the book James suggested) before getting the bits to sharpen it - as there seem to be so many options.

I'm hoping as I have no suitable vice to hold it to snap the handle off that I might be able to cut it off with the cutting wheel that came with the Dremel, and then use the diamond stones to taper the end.

PS the KCB star is incredible looking James, I can barely believe it was done by hand!

Thanks again
Faith

[Dennis]

Your cut off disk might do it Faith, but working on the graver will get it too hot to hold, so you will need some handyman's pliers and a bowl of water to for frequent dips. There will also be a plume of sparks requiring eye protection.

For tapering the end you will need a largish grind stone not a diamond, also with water at hand. Ideally it would be about 45.0mm in diameter, as found on one end of a polishing motor. Again there might be something in the Dremel range, but it will lack power.

Alternatively you might know someone with a Black&Decker, who can support it while you do the grinding. But the real answer would be to go on a summer course where all the workshop tools are to hand. Dennis.

[Faith]

Hi Dennis,
I think I'd struggle with time for a course unfortunately, although it would be fab to do at some point if I could. Potentially I might be able to find someone with heavy duty grinding tools, is there no way to do the initial shaping by hand though?
Faith

[Goldsmith]

Faith, how about this as an addition to your tool kit, costs less than a couple of scorpers;http://www.screwfix.com/p/energer-enb519grb-150mm-bench-grinder-240v/93157?kpid=93157&cm_mmc=Google-_-Product%20Listing%20Ads-_-Sales%20Tracking-_-sales%20tracking%20url&cm_mmc=Google-_-Shopping%20-%20Tools-_-Shopping%20-%20Tools-_-all\tools\woodworking\energer_5f2abacf-26b1-0c49-9a9c-000004cf103b&gclid=CPeYspv76s0CFZEy0wodAjAPHA

James

[ShinyLauren]

Faith, have you looked at the GRS gravers?

https://www.hswalsh.com/categories/grs-gravers-accessories

I use them for stone setting as they are already short and therefore there is no need to try and snap them off.

I have an onglette one for cutting the inside of bezels on (I think) the QC handle, and keep it sharp with a sanding disc, which probably isn't the best way!

They are expensive, but save a lot of faffing.

[ps_bond]

A word of warning - don't even think of trying to sharpen the carbide ones with anything other than diamond, and definitely never quench them.
The Thermolock handles are quite useful for a number of other things too.

[Dennis]

Expensive, but tools for the age. I think I might get some and try again. Dennis.

[Faith]

Okay, so I made the mistake of looking at the actual GRS website...

These look super Lauren, and I hadn't looked at them before - despite being quite a big benchmate fan.

So it looks like there are 3 viable options:

http://www.grstools.com/gravers-burs-and-more/new-traditional-gravers/new-traditional-graver-flat.html
http://www.grstools.com/gravers-burs-and-more/quick-change-gravers/quick-change-graver-flat.html
http://www.grstools.com/gravers-burs-and-more/c-max/c-max-parallel-flat.html

The top two look like they're made the same shape as James makes himself for bezels and are HSS Steel, but only available in tapered flat.
The bottom one has no tapered snout, is a carbide kind and is available in either tapered flat or parallel flat.

I'm not sure which would be the easiest to sharpen and otherwise care for, but they look like good options. With the diamond sharpening stones I'm soon to own am I just best off with the carbide one perhaps?

James - thanks for the link to the grinder, sadly its not the price its space and working environment that would make it tricky to have one of those. I have a good solid bench setup but ultimately its occupying an upstairs bedroom, and while I can get away with silver filings in the carpet, one of those would be pushing it :(.

Thanks again all :)
Faith

[Faith]

Actually I think the 1st one still requires its handle grinding, so I think my best bet is this one, unless anyone things I'm making a horrible mistake:

http://www.bettsmetalsales.com/p-Grs-Qc-Flat-Graver-No-2/2797 in Size 10 (1mm) with its associated quick change handle.

Then all I need to worry about is how to keep the little guy sharp - but he's not a carbide one just HSS (which I'm guessing is just harder than usual steel).

Faith

[theresa]

The bezel is absolutely perfect James. Did you have to keep your nail over the stone to avoid touching it or are you just so experienced you can go freehand? Makes me feel ashamed of my efforts!


Faith, here in the UK a graver is a square or lozenge shaped cutting tool used for engraving lines,letters and pictures. A scorper is a similar tool with a larger body shape and has various cutting faces,usually flat or halfround, there are also scorpers called spitzstick and bullstick which are eliptical and oval in shape. I have dozens of scorpers collected over the years, I mostly used them for carving crests and such like, I have also lots of gravers as I also engraved items in the past. Those in the USA call them all gravers though.

The first photo shows one of my prepared scorpers and a rub over setting that has had the top edge cut clean with the scorper, the puma engraving is a practice piece I did 50 years ago.

This is a book I learned many methods from;http://www.cooksongold.com/Books/Engraving-On-Precious-Metals-By-A--Brittain-And-P-Morton-prcode-999-AMP

9109 9110

James

[Goldsmith]

The bezel is absolutely perfect James. Did you have to keep your nail over the stone to avoid touching it or are you just so experienced you can go freehand? Makes me feel ashamed of my efforts!

Thank you for your nice comment Theresa, bear in mind that I have been using these types of hand tools for the past 55 years, so I am quite experienced. I mainly used scorpers for carving metals, to me they are a very useful bench tool. I use half round scorpers for carving textures on metal surfaces under transparent enamels such as on my flower petals as shown below.

9137

James

[Faith]

That's incredible looking James :)

Any advice on whether my 'cheat scorper' http://www.bettsmetalsales.com/p-Grs-Qc-Flat-Graver-No-2/2797 might be okay to start practicing a little technique with the book you recommended? It would at least allow me to get up and running straight away as it comes shaped polished and with its own handle?

Thanks :) Faith

[Aurarius]

Just picking up on the detail here, you recommend (or at least use) flesh side out leather. Any particular reason for that? It's just, I'm reading Gerald Benney Goldsmith and he recommended flesh side in, but only on the basis that theoretically, the inside, in and the outside out, may be as nature intended, slightly more robust.
Yes, I have seen others advocate the "as nature intended" orientation for sticking the leather down - even one or two bookbinders I know strop their paring knives that way.

The primary reason for the flesh-side up orientation is that the fibrous structure of the inside surface is slightly better at holding the sharpening/polishing compound than the often rather shiny hair side of a piece of leather. Hide/calf-skin should be OK to use hair-side up because it typically has a somewhat duller and more absorbent outer surface in its tanned state than the outer surface of a piece of goatskin, which often has a fairly high polish when it leaves the tannery. On the other hand, the fibrous structure of the flesh side of goatskin is usually of a denser "weave" than that of the flesh side of a piece of hide/calf, so it provides a surface that is a good compromise, in my view, between absorbency/compound-retention on the one hand and smoothness on the other.

Whatever leather you use you don't want it to be too thick (0.5mm or below is about right), otherwise the knife may sink into the leather too much and its bevels/angles get rounded off when you want them to remain sharp.


Faith, there are many ways of achieving a sharp cutting tool and there's no agreement on which way is best, even for the same kind of cutting tool. A couple of general principles are that the blunter your cutting tool is to start with, the coarser the cutting material can and should be at first, and as your edge starts to get sharper you use progressively finer grades of whatever choice of things you're sharpening with, e.g. diamond stone, silicone carbide paper, water stone, arkansas stone, cutting/polishing compounds. The other principle, for novice sharpeners at any rate, is to keep a keen eye on the edge you're working on to make sure your sharpening is progressing properly; for tools as small as gravers this means using magnification. But you'll be used to that already.

[Faith]

Thanks Aurarius,

On that basis I'm thinking if I went for the pre-sharpened pre-shaped grs graver that's really a scorper (the link is a couple of posts back) I'll probably only need some of the finer sharpening items to keep it sharp, perhaps ankansas stone, the emery James recommended and either the rouge on paper Peter spoke about or rouge on goat skin (if I can find any).
That's my current subject-to-change plan anyway!

Thanks again Faith :)

[Goldsmith]

That's incredible looking James :)

Any advice on whether my 'cheat scorper' http://www.bettsmetalsales.com/p-Grs-Qc-Flat-Graver-No-2/2797 might be okay to start practicing a little technique with the book you recommended? It would at least allow me to get up and running straight away as it comes shaped polished and with its own handle?

Thanks :) Faith

Faith the book is mainly about learning engraving which may be not what you want to know, you can probably learn how to use a graver/scorper quickly by watching some Youtube videos these days. this type of info was not available when I was learning my trade. I have no experience of the GRS tools so cannot comment. I do not know where you are based, a visit to a trade fair would be a good place to see what tools are available. If you are near London the IJL exhibition is worth a visit;http://www.jewellerylondon.com/ most of the jewel tool suppliers show there, along with many other suppliers to the trade.

James

[Faith]

Thanks James,

I have been looking at some internet tutorials and some of the engraving forums and think I have a rough idea of how to get started, and I've got plenty of scrap bits to practice scorpering the edges from and see how t works. I'll have a look at the book too though if I can find one I can leaf through first, and see if it might help :)

The show looks great but I'm much closer to Birmingham - so I'll keep a look out for anything on there, I guess there might be with the jewellery quarter.

Thanks again,
Faith

[Dennis]

There is a spring fair at NEC Birmingham in early February, but mainly of commercially made jewellery for jewellers' shops. Walsh are listed to be there this year, as are Sutton tools and no doubt a few gemstone companies and diamond suppliers.

IJL in September is far more relevant but even so, overwhelmingly for supplying shops. You might also look out for a RocknGem show near you. Dennis.

[Faith]

Thanks Dennis, I did notice the Jewllery and Watch one in Birmingham in Feb, it did look very buyer orientated but it could be an interesting day out all the same :)

Faith

[Patstone]

James, I havent got a hammer head on my Foredom, how do you support the ring while you are hammering it, its something I have been thinking about getting. I have a GRS system but apart from the bench pin, it doesnt get used a lot.

[Goldsmith]

James, I havent got a hammer head on my Foredom, how do you support the ring while you are hammering it, its something I have been thinking about getting. I have a GRS system but apart from the bench pin, it doesnt get used a lot.

Pat, If the ring shank is an even wire I hold it in wooden ring clamps like one of these;http://www.proopsbrothers.com/jewellers-ring-clamp-with-wing-nut-m0089-1424-p.asp if the ring has a shaped shank then I just slide it on my steel ring mandrel and rest it on a sand bag while using the hammer head to close settings.

James

[Patstone]

James, I have one of those ring clamps, never used it on a sandbag tho, I will definately give that a go. I have quite a few books if anyone wants to buy them, most of them are like new. Get most of the information that I need on this forum as very experienced people here.

[metalsmith]

I have quite a few books if anyone wants to buy them, most of them are like new. Get most of the information that I need on this forum as very experienced people here.

That is, once you'd learned the basics from the books eh? A valuable grounding. Where's that thread about salesmanship again? Sigh. #-o

[Faith]

Hi Dennis,

Having been a bit unproductive lately due to work and holidays, I've just come back to my rings! Re your post below, ive bought rubber wheels as well as my radial disks now and was wondering which were likely to be best for the final polish of the bezel (both from a point of view of finish and non stone scratching?

I hadn't thought to use the rubber wheels on the silver but I was re reading the thread and noticed your suggestion:


Yes you can file close to the stone and many of us do, by grinding and polishing one safe edge on a half round, or flat needle file with stones and rubber wheels. Use it quite lightly and go slowly so as not to slip.

Afterwards finish with a burnisher also slowly and carefully and then with fine and extra fine rubber/silicone wheels of small diameter. Dennis.

Also nearly finished my adapted file :)

Many thanks
Faith

[Dennis]

Yes the more you do, the more personal tricks you get up to.

For instance to reduce the marks from the pusher, I have made mine from heavy brass wire in a universal handle, so polishing the sides is minimal. I use the silicon-rubber wheels, making sure they are flat edged by running them on my diamond plate.

For the edges of the bezel after filing and burnishing, I also finish with some that have become smaller with use. They can be shaped on the diamond plate to be almost knife edged, but still flat. The fine and extra fine ones are safe on most stones if you run them slowly and are light handed. You will see the effect in my album.

Hope you get on well, Dennis.

[Faith]

Hi Dennis,

Well I finished the file til it was good and shiny and after trying it first on one ring that I'll probably dismantle I had a go on the tourmaline one. It worked brilliantly apart from one problem, where the metal was super tight to the stone in spots the filing left like a tiny burr of higher metal that I couldn't get given the safe edge. In the end I sort of followed one of your earlier comments and managed to get it with a craft knife. Post polishing with the wheels it looks 100 times better than it did tho!

Do you get the little burs with the filing method, or have I messed up the file preparations slightly do you think?

Ta again
Faith

[Dennis]

Yes, by the nature of things, a safe file will occasionally leave a little up-stand of metal very close to the stone. This is why real jewellers use a scorper.
As I am liable to make a mess with scorpers, I go for a snap off craft knife, which is always sharp BTW.

However, the more accurately you finish the bezel edge before finally setting the stone the better the effect.
Only experience will teach you that.
Remember to lay some dental floss across the bezel cup when trying in stones, so that you have ample opportunity to yank them out and are not forced into setting them prematurely.

Now that I have taught you my dreadful amateur practices, you will be able to get on with things and change to more professional methods at leizure. Soon you will be replying to beginners yourself. Dennis.

[Faith]

Thanks Dennis :) and lol having looked at your cab settings I don't think your practices could be described as dreadful or amateur at all!!

Btw when you said the snap off craft knife is always sharp, did you mean you sharpen it, or that by default it's sharp when u snap a new bit off?

I can already see that the quality of the setting makes a huge difference, Ive done another one where the setting was worked a lot less pushing it over and it looks a lot tidier before filing :).

Have you tried using a proper scorper just to trim the little metal upstands at all? I wondered if the nice premade grs scorpers might be even better than the a craft knife and perhaps easier to control in that application where the majority of the bezel edge is filed to lean on....

Ta :)
Faith

[Dennis]

Yes, provided you only use one section at a time, the next one will be fresh and sharp. However don't let me put you off. You might turn out to be an Olympic scorperer.

Looking forward to your opinion and a pic or two. Dennis.

[Faith]

Well I'll let you know soon as I've got the wee scorper :)

As for photos, my other half is into photography so I'm gonna get him to take some decent photos once the little set of rings is done and then I'll pop one up!

Faith

[Patstone]

I tried using a scorper to tidy up the edge but ended up using craft knife too. It is a special skill, you can end up going too deep and making the edge bumpy.

[Faith]

Hi Dennis,

Well I've had a bit of rare success that may interest you! Not experimented with scorpering yet, but I tried another 6mm bezel setting (0.45mm wall) and didn't file the bezel edge at all before setting it, just did it full thickness with a flat top. It was mainly for style, I like a thicker bezel top, but the result was the metal pushed over quite uniformly with the top edge of the bezel sloping inward very slightly. Obviously the top edge was a tiny bit raggedy but it filed beautifully with no burrs because I filed it down to flush with the inside edge and no further.

Course not everyone would like the effect, but it worked well :)

Photos next I think!

Faith :)

[Dennis]

4000 viewing and still no final pics. Youre a master of suspense, Faith.

[Faith]

Here you are :) photos...

I'm quite pleased (although a little nervous now Dennis has pointed out the view count!) but definitely welcome constructive feedback.

The tourmaline ring (of which pics went up previously, but tidied up a bit now):
9190

The smaller rose quartz ring (which turned out better i think):
9191

And the little set together - one just has a wee silver ball:
9192

And there we go, suspense over :)

Many thanks for any comments
Faith

[enigma]

They look great Faith well done!

[Dennis]

Constructive feedback: Start sellingem. Dennis.

[Faith]

:) thanks for the lovely comments both of you, and for all your help and advice while I was making them too.

And I'd love it if some of my work was good enough to sell so I'm just a little pile of happy at that.

Faith

[mizgeorge]

Yay Faith! They look great - and one of my favourite colour combinations too.

[ShinyLauren]

Well done Faith, they look lovely!

[Faith]

thank you both :)

I really like the colours together too George - I can already see this might get addictive though, adding more colour options to suit different occasions, outfits, seasons....

Faith :)