Soldering a heavy sterling silver ring

[RuthW]

Can someone please advise me as I'm having no success at all getting the solder to run when soldering the joint on a 7mm x 2.5mm ring using medium solder.
So far I've tried remaking the joint to ensure it is a tight fit.
Between each soldering attempt I've cleaned up the ring using a small pink sanding disc, wire wool and ultrasonic cleaning.
I've also put the strip of solder in the ultrasonic cleaner in case it is dirty.
I've tried using both easy-flo flux paste and Klein liquid flux.
I've supported the ring in tweezers, lay it on a soldering brick and also on a charcoal block.
I was initially using a small butane hand torch but in case it wasn't getting enough heat into the ring I bought a propane cylinder so that I could setup the Sievert soldering torch that I'd previously bought.
With every attempt I've made the solder just sits on the joint andwon't run, it doesn't even all up, so the ring makes yet another visit to the pickle pot before cleaning it again. I'm heating up the sides of the ring and/or the underside of the joint but nothing seems to work and I just don't know what I'm doing wrong.
If anyone can give meant tips I'd be very grateful because I'm running out of ideas.
Thanks

[Keia]

Hi Ruth, is it possible that your pickle solution has accidentally become contaminated with something? Also, is it possible you might have gotten the strip of solder accidentally mixed up with silver wire?
I'd also try changing the flux for Auroflux or the borax dish & cone as it may well be the wrong type of flux you're using. A quick google search on the fluxes you mentioned (as I'd never heard of them before) the first one doesn't make any mention of use on silver (that I could see anyway) & the Klein one I couldn't find at all

[LydiaNiz]

I suspect Sian is right and your flux is used for other metals. I still find my borax cone and dish (add a little water to the dish then grind the cone into it until you have a white solution you can paint over the join) my favourite flux for silver. Hopefully that'll sort your problems

[Dennis]

Dear Ruth,

Both Sian and Lydia have hit upon the fact that your flux is probably unsuitable for use with medium solder. I have noted over the years that many members, including myself no longer use medium silver solder, as it is the most likely to be troublesome.

So for this job, I would use hard solder with borax, or Auflux/Auroflux. Alternatively you can use easy solder, with Easyflo flux, but this might re-melt if the ring needs further stages of soldering.

The next problem is that if a tiny gap opens when heating the ring, the the solder will refuse to fill it. This has been talked about earlier in the week here: http://www.cooksongold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7742

However, I would first set the ring aside and just verify as suggested by Sian, that what you are using as solder is not a strip of sterling. So snip a few pieces and try to melt them onto scrap. Dennis.

[Vixen]

I had a similarly frustrating time with my very first bezel attempt. I just could not get the solder to run to solder the bezel to the backing plate.
Turned out to be simply a case of not enough heat due to faulty gear. Got my gear replaced and BINGO!!

Maybe you are just not quite using your new gear right and need to get in closer with the flame to get more heat.

[Patstone]

I use hard solder for just about everything as a first solder joint on an item then go to easy for any subsequent solders. My guess is that it isnt getting hot enough, I use a builders torch, the ones that they use for water pipes. It roars a bit but does the job. If you have a go in the semi dark you can see if the item is red hot or not, you can usually see if the two ends are going apart during the heating process too. I make quite a few chunky rings and my normal torch wasnt getting the rings hot enough.

[RuthW]

Thank you all for your input.
I don't think that I've got my solder mixed up with silver strip but fair point to make and also the point about medium solder being particularly troublesome.
I will however get some either borax or Auflux as you suggest and my pickling solution may well be contaminated so I will make fresh. Is there a way to tell if you need to renew your pickling solution? And also as I was cleaning the each before each attempt with wire wool and then putting it in an ultrasonic cleaner wouldn't that remove any contamination from the flux?
I'm new to jewellery making but am from an engineering background and trying to teach myself silversmithing but sometimes I find soldering things easy to do and other times, like this one, I just can't make it happen. I will continue trying your suggestions and see how I get on.
Thanks to you all.

[Goldsmith]

Ruth, do not put items in ultrasonic before soldering as this will coat the clean surfaces and stop good solder flow. The best way to clean soldering surfaces is to file or scrape them, removing the top layer of metal, then flux the surface. I would also suggest that you scrape the surface of your solder before cutting pallions, dip the pallions in the flux before attaching them to the solder joint, and pickle the item after soldering. I use a borax cone and dish for my flux. An ultrasonic cleaner is meant to remove greasy compounds after polishing.

[Aurarius]

Ruth, you've already had some very good advice. I echo Dennis' point about medium solder being problematic; it does flow, but it often seems to do so very reluctantly.

One clue to how things are going during soldering is the colour of the metal. If you're going to be using hard solder on your enormous ring then you're going to have to get the whole ring glowing dull orange before the solder will flow; that's not easy to achieve on such a big ring and impossible with a small handheld torch. Get your joint nice and flush, the edges clean and well fluxed, get the fluxed pallion to sit across the joint whilst making good contact, surround the ring closely with fire bricks, and go all over it systematically, starting opposite the join, with a big strong flame. The solder should flow once the whole ring gets up to the necessary temperature.

[LydiaNiz]

The main thing is, that solder brand seems to be for brazing alloys or electronic soldering, not silver

[Edhelien]

Do you mean this flux? http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Flux-Soldering-Liquid-250ml-prcode-997-6418
I use it for both silver and gold and all types of solders (although on silver 99% I use hard), it works well.
Hard silver solder from Cookson flows well even on dirty surfaces, but I had problems with medium from Cookson, don't know why. Scratching the solder strip with file helped. But still I strongly prefer hard.
I have handheld butane torch only (max flame) and I don't have problem to heat rings in range 7-10g. I don't do heavier, because I find anything above 1.5mm thickness highly uncomfortable. I think yours could be approx. 10-13g? It should be doable. I made also some bracelets in 20g range with butane torch, but I used gas cooker in kitchen as small help :)
I would think you are not getting it hot enough. Or the ultrasonic. Hard to tell. Can you test the solder and your process on something less heavy?

[LydiaNiz]

I was looking at the wrong stuff in that case. I only use a max flame and make very heavy rings with that. Weirdly I only started using my medium solder this week as I was low on hard. It is definitely the most temperamental, I wonder why?

[Dennis]

It is definitely the most temperamental, I wonder why?

On a solder farm it is fed on oats.

[CJ57]

I don't know when medium solder started to be a brat. I was taught to work through the grades but at that time I was using borax, I don't remember having problems with medium until I started using auflux.

[Keia]

It's odd that most are having problems with med solder, that's the main one I turn to & it's from cooksons stock. How strange. I go through the usual process of hammering the solder strip flat, snipping wee bits off & away I go. It's my go to solder for brass & copper too :confused: Maybe I've just been really lucky with the batch

[Keia]

I was looking at the wrong stuff in that case. I only use a max flame and make very heavy rings with that. Weirdly I only started using my medium solder this week as I was low on hard. It is definitely the most temperamental, I wonder why?

That's not the flux I saw either, I saw the one that was used for brazing too

[CJ57]

It's odd that most are having problems with med solder, that's the main one I turn to & it's from cooksons stock. How strange. I go through the usual process of hammering the solder strip flat, snipping wee bits off & away I go. It's my go to solder for brass & copper too :confused: Maybe I've just been really lucky with the batch

I haven't used it since everyone said it was useless, maybe I should just go back to what I know:) it would be useful instead of going from hard to easy

[Patstone]

Thank you all for your input.
I don't think that I've got my solder mixed up with silver strip but fair point to make and also the point about medium solder being particularly troublesome.
I will however get some either borax or Auflux as you suggest and my pickling solution may well be contaminated so I will make fresh. Is there a way to tell if you need to renew your pickling solution? And also as I was cleaning the each before each attempt with wire wool and then putting it in an ultrasonic cleaner wouldn't that remove any contamination from the flux?
I'm new to jewellery making but am from an engineering background and trying to teach myself silversmithing but sometimes I find soldering things easy to do and other times, like this one, I just can't make it happen. I will continue trying your suggestions and see how I get on.
Thanks to you all.

Another thing you may not have been told is to get your solder thin by bashing it with a hammer before cutting into pallions. The thinner solder flows better, also when you have filed the ends to get grease etc off, dont touch them with your fingers as your skin has grease in it and will contaminate the metal.

[RuthW]

This is all really useful info that you're putting up and I will hopefully have more success when my new flux arrives and I will try hammering my solder as well. The ring is for a thumb ring for my husband so I'm hoping it thickness won't be an issue like it would be for a finger ring.

[enigma]

How thick a ring is comfortable is very much an individual thing but all of mine are at least 2mm thick and 4mm wide with some as much as 2.5mm by 10mm as they have to incorporate the braid.
I certainly wouldn't think you will have problems with a thumb ring for a man being thicker.

[RuthW]

Yes Edhelien, this is the liquid flux which I said I had tried.

[Edhelien]

Yes, Enigma, it's highly individual. It depends a lot on a width and shape, 2mm x 4mm would be ok, I have wedding band 4mm half round and like it. But I make ring which is 8mm wide and 1.5mm thick and it is uncomfortable for both me (L 1/2) and my husband (P 1/2), I have thin fingers with almost no gaps between them. It can be very different with bigger hands/fingers/knuckles. I think we all project our personal preferences into our work :)

[enigma]

Im the same Anna and thats why I designed a thinner horsehair ring than anybody else does- the market standard is way too uncomfortable for me.
But I also know that many people are happy to wear really chunky rings that I couldn't cope with at all and as that gives more room for different designs I make those too.
I do point out to people the thickness/size though to be sure they are aware though as many womens rings are so slim .
Love your 'gold chaos' designs BTW :)

[RuthW]

Just to let you all know that after more failed attempts with new flux (Auflux and Borax) and differing solders using my sievert blow torch, I bought a blow torch which fits onto a butane can and it's like a mini flame thrower but it did the job. So it was the lack of heat which was the problem. However much learnt in the process so none of it was wasted apart from the frustration. The idea of soldering with the light off to see the colour of the metal was a very good tip. Thanks to all who sent advice and tips.

[camalidesign]

Ruth,

I'm wondering what nozzle you are using with the Sievert, is it the needleflame one? If so, you can get a larger one that should do the job fine. That way you don't need to have a different torch for jobs like this.

Carin

[Patstone]

I use a mini flame thrower for thick big rings too, bit scary to start with especially if like me you are in a house with carpets, curtains etc.

[enigma]

The bigger nozzle on the Sievert should be fine, I use it for thick bangles up to 10mm by 3mm with no problems.

[TeeDee]

The bigger nozzle on the Sievert should be fine, I use it for thick bangles up to 10mm by 3mm with no problems.

Hi Ruth,
I suspect the burner nozzle Sarah mentions may be the the 3939 http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Sievert_3939_Pin-point_Gas_Blow_Torch_Burner.html
Its a really good general purpose burner and I still use mine in preference to oxy/propane for some jobs
Hamiltons are usually best price.
If you like tech specs, the jewellers pinpoint burner is only 0.25 Kilowatts (Kw) whereas the 3939 is 0.9Kw so it is capable of more than 3 times the heat output.
if you ever have to anneal quite large pieces there is a 3941 which will punch out over 3Kw http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Sievert_3941_Standard_Gas_Blow_Torch_Burner.html and heat your work quickly which is useful for minimizing firestain.

Hope that helps
Tim

[TeeDee]

PS - Just checked and Cookies also sell those burner nozzles ........and have free delivery at the moment £25+ I think
Tim

[ps_bond]

if you ever have to anneal quite large pieces there is a 3941 which will punch out over 3Kw http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Sievert_3941_Standard_Gas_Blow_Torch_Burner.html and heat your work quickly which is useful for minimizing firestain.


IIRC my assortment (on that Sievert) is
3537
3939
3941
2943 (yes, really - sometimes I want to anneal some fairly large pieces or preheat cast iron for welding...)

[enigma]

Yes I have the 3938 which is fine for all my thick rings ( up to 10mm wide and 3mm thick) and the 3941 which I use for bangles.
Only failed so far on a 40mm wide by 1.5mm thick cuff, well actually it managed until I got the last of 5 rope bezels soldered on.
I've not managed to melt for casting with it though as I understand others have. :confused:

[susieq]

I hated the bulky look of the Sievert and as I have small hands wasn't sure I would like it, but having used one in college recently without problem, I'm definitely leaning towards it.

However, looking at the Sievert torches/heads at Cookson and Hamiltons and comparing price, etc., the Hamilton heads look different to the ones that Cookson sells, even though the sievert codes are the same.

For example, the 3939 head - the Cookson photo shows a more refined looking product, also there are additional holes at the end of the nozzle which aren't on the Hamiltons photo. They really don't look like the same thing.

http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Sievert-Burner-3939-17mm-Fine-prcode-999-ALA
http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Sievert_3939_Pin-point_Gas_Blow_Torch_Burner.html

On the other hand, could just be Hamilton's have some old photos and Cooksons use a computer graphic?

http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Sievert-Burner-3940-17mm-Standard-prcode-999-ALC
http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Sievert_3940_Standard_Gas_Blow_Torch_Burner.html#a 3940

Would Sievert have two different qualities of the same product? There's quite a difference in price, especially the jewellers torch kit.

Susieq

[Aurarius]

Would Sievert have two different qualities of the same product? Susieq
If you mean two different products with the same code then the answer is almost certainly no.



There's quite a difference in price, especially the jewellers torch kit.

The difference in price is solely due to the fact that Cookson generally ask higher prices for Sievert stuff than Hamilton do.
Whatever you're buying, shop around. If it's a high value item don't forget to put a company's customer service record in the balance as well as the product's price.

[TeeDee]

I hated the bulky look of the Sievert and as I have small hands wasn't sure I would like it, but having used one in college recently without problem, I'm definitely leaning towards it.

However, looking at the Sievert torches/heads at Cookson and Hamiltons and comparing price, etc., the Hamilton heads look different to the ones that Cookson sells, even though the sievert codes are the same.

For example, the 3939 head - the Cookson photo shows a more refined looking product, also there are additional holes at the end of the nozzle which aren't on the Hamiltons photo. They really don't look like the same thing.

http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Sievert-Burner-3939-17mm-Fine-prcode-999-ALA
http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Sievert_3939_Pin-point_Gas_Blow_Torch_Burner.html

Susieq

I think you may find that Cooksons use a generic photo of the same burner for each of their burner ads
Looks like a 3940
In reality each burner nozzle will be different with the number stamped on the barrel

Tim