Sawing problems from a new member~please feel free to answer

[Kay]

1) Do I need to wear a mask when I do the sawing? afraid of the dust do harm~~

2) I want to cut some really hard materials, what brand of sawblade will be the best?

[Goldsmith]

Regarding harmful dust, it depends on what materials are you intending to saw. If it is base or precious metals then no mask should be required as the saw dust is heavier than air and as the piercing saw blade cuts on the down stroke, the saw dust should head downwards.

I use Glardon Vallorbe saw Super jewellers saw blades, the size you use will depend on the thickness of metals you are cutting.

James

[Dennis]

Dear Kay,

As you have probably seen, the members vie with each other to give satisfactory answers to questions like yours.

Unfortunately you are playing your cards rather close to your chest and James' response might not apply in your case. What 'really hard materials' do you have in mind? Dennis.

[metalsmith]

1) Do I need to wear a mask when I do the sawing? afraid of the dust do harm~~

2) I want to cut some really hard materials, what brand of sawblade will be the best?

As to hardness, silver, gold, platinum; copper and brass (the most common precious and base metals have a hardness of 2.5, 2-5-3; 3.5; 3, 3-4 Mohs tho' you might find different numbers for Brinell, Knoop and others.

These don't rank as really hard. To cut anything hard, simply use something harder. For hard stones (not metals), carborundum and diamond wheels are common. For most metals steel which as a set of alloys has a range of hardnesses will do.

All dust is harmful, but heavy materials fall quicker and pose less of a risk; the heavier the material, the quicker the risk is reduced. Whilst there is frequently little incentive for collecting stone dust, for precious metals its different.

[Kay]

Dear James,

Thank you for your quick reply. I know the brand you have suggested is very good and I tried it with 1.5mm thickness brass with a 3/0 and #2 sized blade, the result was bit unfavorable, maybe I weren't skill enough......

[Kay]

Dear Metalsmith,

Thank you for reply =)

does it mean, for cutting metals, I don't need a mask??

the metal I tried to cut is a mixed material mainly brass. I've found it hard to cut(take a long time and teeth of blade got blunt quickly),I tried many different brands and sizes of blades, but don't seem great improvement, that's why ask for help here. can you kindly suggest how I can do better??

[Kay]

Dear Kay,

As you have probably seen, the members vie with each other to give satisfactory answers to questions like yours.

Unfortunately you are playing your cards rather close to your chest and James' response might not apply in your case. What 'really hard materials' do you have in mind? Dennis.

Dear Dennis,

Thanks for your remind.

I'd like to cut a mixed material mainly brass thickness around 1.5mm (I made the guess cause I don't have the measure tool).

For cutting out detail patterns, I am using Niqua Antilope blue label 3/0 and 4/0 blades. I feel a bit confused that the 3/0 blades are hardly "bite" into the metal and quickly became blunt after few minutes of using. But the situation didn't occur on the 4/0 blade of the same brand, it seems function well.(the company have just changed the packing, my 3/0 with new packing, 4/0 with old packing) I'm not sure are the contents the same between the old and new packing or I do something incorrect??

[Goldsmith]

If I was cutting 1.5mm. thick metal, I would use a 2/0 or 0 size blade. I must admit that I rarely cut brass though. The only base metals that I would cut is either copper or gilding metal, and that is just for patterns like these cut from 1mm. thick copper and gilding metal.

8499 8500 8501

James

[Dennis]

Hi Kay, brass is very tough to cut, but with patience and lubrication it will happen.

Patience: dont press forward on the blade but let it work at its own speed, always on the down stroke.
Lubrication: bees wax, or candle wax rubbed on the back of the blade every two or three centimetres of progress works well.
Blade size: for the thickness of brass you are cutting, 2/0 or even 1/0 blades would be what to use. Finer ones are too fragile.

As James has already said Vallorbe is probably the best you can buy. He is after all our expert on this. Regards, Dennis.

[metalsmith]

Dear Metalsmith,

Thank you for reply =)

does it mean, for cutting metals, I don't need a mask??

the metal I tried to cut is a mixed material mainly brass. I've found it hard to cut(take a long time and teeth of blade got blunt quickly),I tried many different brands and sizes of blades, but don't seem great improvement, that's why ask for help here. can you kindly suggest how I can do better??

I would find it irresponsible to recommend anyone should not wear a mask in the presence of particulates. However, the simplest test is to wear a mask if you have one, ideally with new filters; you can use the speed with which they dirty through breathing as a guide to what you might otherwise be inhaling, then it is your choice to continue cutting / wearing - or not.

Using a coarser saw blade appropriate to the thickness of the metal will help keep the particles coarse and heavy particles do not tend to stay airborne. Hand piercing rather than tool-cutting is less energetic (except on the jeweller) and particles tend to drop rather than fly up.

History has provided most of our knowledge on the effect of particulates; particularly silicosis / pneumoconiosis from the stone cutting & mining industries. I'm not aware of similar afflictions affecting jewellers who pierce without masks, but I would recommend using a mask if using a cutting wheel or dry grinder, if only to protect against the grind-stone particles becoming loose / airborne on use.

[Patstone]

And of course wear glasses or goggles to protect your eyes. Not easy making jewellery with one eye, done that, been there.....

[Kay]

oh dear,did you got hurt when making jewellery??

[Kay]

Thank you James, your advises do a lot of help, I've just tried the Glardon Vallorbe blade again, it works better after I have followed what you and Dennis said.

I think I couldn't got the correct tension of the blade before, today I use the Knew concept frame and tune the tension slightly, seems that I am on the right track finally. I will keep working on it, hope my skills can get better.

Thanks again.

[Kay]

Thanks Dennis, agreed that brass is tough=="

I've tried what you told me, it does help, gald that I found this forum and you guys =)

[Patstone]

No, had a cataract op that went wrong and lost my eye. Got a false eye, it is a pretty good match though.

[Kay]

I see,bless you and thanks for the comment, I ll wear goggles. Happy new year =)

[Goldsmith]

Kay, may I ask what you are attempting to pierce? perhaps show a photo. Do you like you knew concepts saw and is it one with the swivel blade tension lever?

If you are interested in what I do have a look at this Knewconcepts newsletter article; http://knewconcepts.com/JamesMiller.php

James

[Kay]

wow James you are a ture master, didn't expect can meet an expert! lucky me.

I am using the 5" Fret Saw with Lever Tension, like it a lot =) light and easy to adjust the tension. thinking of buy one more for reserve.

I visited a market months ago, saw a craftsman piercing metals into jewelry. It looked fun and beautiful, that's why I started self-learning piercing. But seems I am not gifted, tried for long time but didn't work well. Until yesterday got the answer here, great improvement of using the knew concept with the glardon vallorbe you suggested. I think it was the tension and lubricant not enough before. I used the german saw frame, it is also cool but a bit heavier and harder to adjust the right tension for new hand like me~

[Goldsmith]

Kay, not sure if you want to know, but here are a few simple tips for easier piercing, first make sure that you bench pin is steady and secure, it should not move at all when in use. The usual way beginners start piercing is to hold the frame straight and pierce away from their face straight down the bench peg V cut out. I was taught to pierce holding the saw frame at right angles to my face and pierce across the bench peg V cut, I was told that is is better to see where the saw was going rather than where it has been. Let the blade do the cutting on it's down stroke and do not push the blade forward and you will break less blades. I use a wax candle as a lubricant, I rub the candle down the rear of my saw blades regularly, never on the teeth of the blade as that creates a mess that hides the piercing line. Practice makes perfect. This photo shows my work bench and my piercing bench peg. You can see that I also use the Knewconcept saw frames.

8502

James

[jayneharrison]

I was taught to pierce holding the saw frame at right angles to my face and pierce across the bench peg V cut, I was told that is is better to see where the saw was going rather than where it has been.

James, I feel like I've just had an epiphany reading this! I wasn't taught that way, yet it makes perfect sense. I'll try it out tomorrow and report back!

[Patstone]

On james's guidance I saw the way he said - sideways. It feels a bit cack handed to start with but once you get used to it, much more accurate.
Just as another nosy question, do you flux or borax, sometimes I find that when i have soldered something and its still hot, if i need a bit more solder I have had a problem keeping the solder on the piece, it jumps off.

[Goldsmith]

On james's guidance I saw the way he said - sideways. It feels a bit cack handed to start with but once you get used to it, much more accurate.
Just as another nosy question, do you flux or borax, sometimes I find that when i have soldered something and its still hot, if i need a bit more solder I have had a problem keeping the solder on the piece, it jumps off.

If I want to add more solder to something that is hot Pat, as I use my trusty old borax cone and dish for fluxing, when soldering I have the borax mixed in a milky mixture in the dish next to my soldering block, so I pick up the solder piece in my tweezers, dip the solder into the borax mix, then hold the solder in place on the hot soldering position while the borax heats up and this adheres the solder in place before final soldering heat is applied.

James

[vsilvered]

The usual way beginners start piercing is to hold the frame straight and pierce away from their face straight down the bench peg V cut out. I was taught to pierce holding the saw frame at right angles to my face and pierce across the bench peg V cut, I was told that is is better to see where the saw was going rather than where it has been.

Does anyone know of a video source where this technique is demonstrated as I'm having a hard time trying to visualise this and where my hand/body placement should be?

[Aurarius]

Does anyone know of a video source where this technique is demonstrated as I'm having a hard time trying to visualise this and where my hand/body placement should be?

We had a thread some time ago where this was discussed in more detail:
http://www.cooksongold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6987&page=2&highlight=hold

[vsilvered]

Thanks Aurarius,

I had a check on that thread you mentioned, but either I've had too much sloe gin over the festive period, or am just being dense, but I still can't visualise the hand/saw/metal placement in relation to the bench peg as described by James :confused:

[Dennis]

Well, simply put: saw across the bench peg, not along it, the more easily to see where you are going. Dennis.

[pearlescence]

Hi. I have a short and very simple video on my website - here (http://www.pearlescence.co.uk/extra_info_pages.php/pages_id/5/osCsid/35r47p1ljcek4vqk5i1nqnl901)
hope it helps you get started.

[vsilvered]

Thanks for the help everyone.

I'll let you know how I get on!

[Patstone]

You place the piece on the "V" of the benchpeg and hold the saw in your hand so the blade is parallel with the bench inside the "V" slot and saw across the "V"

[Kay]

Thanks James, I am going to make myself a steady bench pin. I lubricated on the teeth before, just like you said~a mess...=.=" will update my progress to you~~

[Patstone]

8535.
This is the PIC I was trying to find yesterday. Hope this clarifies it a bit, sorry, trying too take photo with one hand but obviously you have to hold the silver with your left hand.

[Aurarius]

You place the piece on the "V" of the benchpeg and hold the saw in your hand so the blade is parallel with the bench inside the "V" slot and saw across the "V"
This matter gets curiouser and curiouser. The picture you've uploaded does indeed show what you describe, but I'm puzzled how you can saw anywhere with the blade tight within the very corner of the V slot and the saw frame held parallel to the bench like that; you'll simply saw into the wood of the bench peg. I suspect there's a certain amount of turning of the saw frame away from parallel to the bench and a degree of travel into and out of the V slot that has not been acknowledged. Or does the blade stay in exactly the same spot like a bandsaw while it travels up and down and you simply move the piece towards it?

[ps_bond]

Or does the blade stay in exactly the same spot like a bandsaw while it travels up and down and you simply move the piece towards it?

Can't say I manage to keep mine precisely in the same place (unless I'm using the precision saw guide) when sawing straight lines, but close enough.

[joella]

This is really interesting as Ive only ever used the saw facing into the V, heading straight ahead, so I'm going to try this as it is quite hard to see where I'm going sometimes - so glad someone thought to ask about it.
Sue

[Goldsmith]

This matter gets curiouser and curiouser. The picture you've uploaded does indeed show what you describe, but I'm puzzled how you can saw anywhere with the blade tight within the very corner of the V slot and the saw frame held parallel to the bench like that; you'll simply saw into the wood of the bench peg. I suspect there's a certain amount of turning of the saw frame away from parallel to the bench and a degree of travel into and out of the V slot that has not been acknowledged. Or does the blade stay in exactly the same spot like a bandsaw while it travels up and down and you simply move the piece towards it?

May I suggest that you try some piercing this way, when you pierce a flat item correctly you use your free hand's fingers to manipulate the piece on the bench peg, the V in the peg has about half an inch of free space to saw within and when you have sawn across the V you move the item across the peg so that you have some more free space. When I said that I pierce with the frame at right angles to my eyeline, this was for simple cutting outlines on flat sheet. Some jobs will require you to be able to pierce in all directions, I have even had to insert a saw blade facing backwards in the frame for some jobs. Some items that I have pierced have been shaped like bowls or egg shells and I have had to hold them beneath my bench peg to secure while piercing their intricate designs. If you pierce correctly there should be no forward force, only a downward force while cutting.

This was me piercing an egg shell 35 years ago.
8536

James

[joella]

What an utter legend James! There really is no hope for rank amateurs such as myself, but even so...... how many hours practice would you suggest to an eager hobbyist who would really like to get better at this?
Sue

[ps_bond]

There are some sawing exercises in Brepohl that I quite like for improving accuracy. Can't see that excerpt on Ganoksin yet, if I find it I'll post the link.

[joella]

Thank you Peter, is 'Brepohl' reference to a book called 'the theory and practice of goldsmithing' ? (I've just googled Brepohl,and it comes up with the book - it is available on amazon, but at £50 ish, its a bit steep for me - so I'm hoping the info is available through a link via ganoskin or some such - thanks
Sue

[ps_bond]

That's the beastie. There's a number of excerpts on Ganoksin, I'll have a bit more of a look soon.

[Goldsmith]

What an utter legend James! There really is no hope for rank amateurs such as myself, but even so...... how many hours practice would you suggest to an eager hobbyist who would really like to get better at this?
Sue

I started piercing monograms for an engraving company, they used to pay me 2/6 per letter, way back in the early 1960s. This was a large piece of flat sheet piercing that I did many years ago, it was about 10 inches square and was 18ct gold, a prayer, commissioned for the Sultan of Oman.

8537 8538

James

[joella]

Thanks so much Peter. OMG James, that is breathtaking! It is truly awe inspiring. Every time I see something amazing on the forum all I can think is 'so little time - so much to do' I really wish I had come to this sooner (I started classes about 2 and half years ago), how I wish I had studied this subject or got an apprenticeship when I was young. Although, there is a lot to be said for doing this as a hobby, spending time on only the things that interest you and only doing the things you want to do - with no pressures from outside or restrictions to work under - apart from cost ofcourse.

[Aurarius]

May I suggest that you try some piercing this way, when you pierce a flat item correctly you use your free hand's fingers to manipulate the piece on the bench peg, the V in the peg has about half an inch of free space to saw within and when you have sawn across the V you move the item across the peg so that you have some more free space. When I said that I pierce with the frame at right angles to my eyeline, this was for simple cutting outlines on flat sheet. Some jobs will require you to be able to pierce in all directions, I have even had to insert a saw blade facing backwards in the frame for some jobs. Some items that I have pierced have been shaped like bowls or egg shells and I have had to hold them beneath my bench peg to secure while piercing their intricate designs. If you pierce correctly there should be no forward force, only a downward force while cutting.


James

Thanks for the clarification.
I do do most of my sawing and piercing inside the V notch now. The support you get on both sides of a piece makes it the sensible option in many cases.

I hear what you're saying about inserting the blade backwards occasionally. I thought about doing that once myself on a piercing job, but told myself I was just being cranky and should learn to do it with the blade the normal way round.

Being able to see the cut line properly makes all the difference, I find. Having clearly marked lines helps, of course, but I haven't yet worked out an efficient way of clearing the chips that accumulate in front of the blade and obscure your view of what's ahead. I usually blow them away, but most of the time the distance my mouth is away from the piece means I have to blow quite hard. Maybe I should hold a drinking straw between my lips and blow through that.

Peter, I've had a look at the sawing exercises in Brepohl (p.184); those parallel lines would be sure to find out any weaknesses. One other thing he suggests (on p.235) is lettering, which I agree is a good exercise, and I've done a few name pendants in silver sheet with reasonable success. Incidentally, on p.186 he illustrates a (not very appealing) pierced silver book cover his father did in 1939. Is anyone doing pierced book covers today? The only silver book covers being produced that I know of are those of Rod Kelly (http://www.rodkellysilver.co.uk/bindings.html), though piercing is not involved there.

Mark.

[Tabby66]

8539
Not piercing, but this guy, Fabrizio Acquafresca, does book covers......repousse,.....in gold and silver.....he provided the cover for the personal copy of the bible for Pope Francis.

[ajda]

Is anyone doing pierced book covers today?
Dennis, maybe that's the answer for your next bit of book making - http://www.cooksongold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7601 - you did a nice job of your Post-it note holder but said it was less satisfying than metal work...

Kay, you started a great thread here! I'm sure lots of us are learning from this one.

Alan

[Dennis]

Dennis, maybe that's the answer for your next bit of book making - http://www.cooksongold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7601 - you did a nice job of your Post-it note holder but said it was less satisfying than metal work...Alan

Yes, but imagine carrying that in your briefcase, Alan,and when you open it: Post Its.

[Aurarius]

Yes, but imagine carrying that in your briefcase, Alan,and when you open it: Post Its.
That's the way to be flash, Dennis. The Sultan of Oman knows all about it.

[Aurarius]

8539
Not piercing, but this guy, Fabrizio Acquafresca, does book covers......repousse,.....in gold and silver.....he provided the cover for the personal copy of the bible for Pope Francis.

Thanks for posting that, Tabby.
There's a similar one actually on sale here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231793135238?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)at the moment.
8540

[TeeDee]

May I suggest that you try some piercing this way, when you pierce a flat item correctly you use your free hand's fingers to manipulate the piece on the bench peg, the V in the peg has about half an inch of free space to saw within and when you have sawn across the V you move the item across the peg so that you have some more free space. When I said that I pierce with the frame at right angles to my eyeline, this was for simple cutting outlines on flat sheet. Some jobs will require you to be able to pierce in all directions, I have even had to insert a saw blade facing backwards in the frame for some jobs. Some items that I have pierced have been shaped like bowls or egg shells and I have had to hold them beneath my bench peg to secure while piercing their intricate designs. If you pierce correctly there should be no forward force, only a downward force while cutting.

This was me piercing an egg shell 35 years ago.
8536

James
Thanks James I really admire your work but it makes me realise I don't have enough years of life left to learn what I want to learn!
That said I notice from you photo that you place your bench peg horizontal face upwards as do I. I have seen that others use the peg with the sloping face upwards. Is there a correct way or is it just whatever suits the individual or the job?
Tim

[Dennis]

I think James will say: flat for piercing and sloping for filing. Some set ups have the facility to invert the peg. It should also have a V-shaped notch.

In the college I attend, they have both for each student. The piercing one is secured by only one screw, so that it can be pushed out of the way. That is a thorough nuisance, because it is not stable enough for serious piercing and accounts for broken blades . Dennis.

[Goldsmith]

Yes Tim as Dennis said, re bench peg position, I have the flat surface of my bench peg facing up for piercing and most jobs, I only use the sloping side when I am doing a lot of large file filing, for needle filing I leave the flat side up as I have small filing areas cut into the front of my peg.

This is my current piercing bench peg;
8544

James

[TeeDee]

Yes Tim as Dennis said, re bench peg position, I have the flat surface of my bench peg facing up for piercing and most jobs, I only use the sloping side when I am doing a lot of large file filing, for needle filing I leave the flat side up as I have small filing areas cut into the front of my peg.

This is my current piercing bench peg;
8544

James

Ahh, thank you both. A long term question now answered.

Dennis, I think having a loose peg would drive me nuts when piercing. It doesn't seem a good setup for those trying to learn.

James, Thanks for the photo. Mine attached. I have a habit of cutting notches and grooves which I find helpful to stabilise some items but not sure if this is common practice. Aways interested to see others.
Presumably the hammers shown are for anticlasting the flower petals/leaves which look fantastic already? How do you close off the ends? is it with a doming punch and the wooden block I can see? I'm interested as it would be a useful technique to finish the ends of synclastic cuffs. I did a trial one a few months ago and struggled a bit with the ends. (Sorry if I'm going off thread)
Tim

[Goldsmith]

Ahh, thank you both. A long term question now answered.

Dennis, I think having a loose peg would drive me nuts when piercing. It doesn't seem a good setup for those trying to learn.

James, Thanks for the photo. Mine attached. I have a habit of cutting notches and grooves which I find helpful to stabilise some items but not sure if this is common practice. Aways interested to see others.
Presumably the hammers shown are for anticlasting the flower petals/leaves which look fantastic already? How do you close off the ends? is it with a doming punch and the wooden block I can see? I'm interested as it would be a useful technique to finish the ends of synclastic cuffs. I did a trial one a few months ago and struggled a bit with the ends. (Sorry if I'm going off thread)
Tim

Tim, I used a lead block and the doming punch to finish the ends of the petals. I make my own lead blocks by melting scrap lead into a steel ingot mold, they are good because when they get marked a lot I just re melt and have a new block.

I use my lead blocks for shaping many things, especially leaves.

8546 8547 8548

James

[TeeDee]

Thanks again James. I have some lead scrap so will have a go at making a block. In the picture, are the domed impressions in the lead formed deliberately when casting the ingot or later with a hammer/punch?
Tim

[Goldsmith]

Thanks again James. I have some lead scrap so will have a go at making a block. In the picture, are the domed impressions in the lead formed deliberately when casting the ingot or later with a hammer/punch?
Tim

The impressions in the lead block are all formed with hammers and punches Tim. When the block is fresh it has semi flat surfaces.