Any engravers?

[ps_bond]

Really, per the title... Are there any hand engravers on here yet? Or anyone else who uses gravers in their work, either for ornamentation or simply as a tool?

I know Bigwol has a good assortment to the left of his bench - I'm guessing for setting work primarily?

[Bigwol]

Yes - The gravers on my bench are all for stone setting, and range from 0.2mm to 2.4mm wide in flat and the same in round , plus a spitstick (very thin v section) and bullstick plus several miscellaneaous burnishing and pushing tools to move the metal around

But for engraving names etc - I still use an electric hammer - a bit crude but I'm not an engraver - They are really skilled and have special engraving ball and clamps to hold their work, some of their work is awesome.

These are the tools I have stabbed myself with more than any other - (you get used to it), sucking the wound and swearing helps dull the pain . . you are more careful for a day or so afterwards!

Complete (ish) list is as follows - price today - about £10 each, and they all come without handles and are supplied in a length which is just too short to make two gravers out of (dammit!) - but too long for one (you tailor the length to your own hand size). But once you have ground them down to length and put your handles on they fit you perfectly.

No 2 0.2mm Flat
No 4 0.4mm Flat
No 6 0.6mm Flat
No 8 0.8mm Flat
No 12 1.2mm Flat
No 24 2.4mm Flat
No 24 2.4mm Flat HSS
No 2 0.2mm Round Edge
No 4 0.4mm Round Edge
No 6 0.6mm Round Edge
No 8 0.8mm Round Edge
No 12 1.2mm Round Edge
No 24 2.4mm Round Edge
No 17 1.7mm Bullstick
1.16mm 1.16mm Spitstick
3mm 3.0mm Square
3mm 3.0mm Lozenge
Square Pusher
Round Pusher
Steel Burnisher
Needle point Burnisher
Graining Tool
Collet pusher

[ps_bond]

These are the tools I have stabbed myself with more than any other - (you get used to it), sucking the wound and swearing helps dull the pain . . you are more careful for a day or so afterwards!

Oh yes... :) During the course I did, we ended up sticking ourselves more than a few times. I managed to stick a 2.5mm square through my finger - utter stupidity, I was tired and forced the tool and my finger was in the way.

It's been a long while since I last poked myself with one though.

Thankfully.

I'm not listing what I've got - there's far too many of them, and a lot are a) unhandled and b) never likely to be used! I use squares more than the others, although I'm coming round to a preference for round for raising beads - they seem to give a nicer finish.

[ps_bond]

So that's it for the graver users then? Just the two of us (and Nic once she's been on her pilgrimage)...

[Charlotte]

I'm afraid I take my stuff down to the shop if I want engraving done. It was a total nightmare last time, I was doing a commission and wanted a few words on the inside of the bangle and the engraver kept making my life very stressful. Would love to learn how to do it myself, I hate relying on others for my work! I have no idea what's involved in engraving though:">

[MuranoSilver]

I'll be starting my Pilgrimage this weekend ;)
Nic x

[bob flemming]

Please can you tell me more about grinding them down? I want to do some channel setting and I need a #50 round according to Cogswell - does anyone have any idea what size that measurement relates to in Cookson terms please?

[Goldsmith]

I use gravers and scorpers regularly. I learnt basic hand engraving from my grandfather when I was an apprentice. I do not like engraving lettering, but I enjoy engraving or outlining my piercing projects before piercing. I also use my scorpers for carving, usually on crests and badges.

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[Goldsmith]

I have not read Cogswell, but I would guess that in Cookson terms you want to buy some half round scorpers. They are a useful addition to any jeweller's toolkit if I am wrong about what Cogswell refers to. Here are photos one of my half round scorpers,a sketch showing how I grind all of my scorpers and a photo of a flat scorper as it comes from Cookson.

229322942295

[Shaun750]

I did a hand engraving course at 'In the studio' a while back.
I got a gravermach sc,which is and air assisted tool.It's the like the difference between digging a hole with a pic axe or using a jack hammer(I've used both of those as well),they say it's 90% easier to learn with a air graver,and it's true.By hand you have to force the graver through the metal,but with the gravermach it's just a matter of steering it along the line you want to follow.You also have a foot pedal.
The little bit of engraving I do now is normally just to go over something I've engraved with a plotter,and then polished some of the detail away,I can't be bothered to set the compressor up,so i just push engrave it.

But...there's always a but,the main thing is keeping the graver sharp,if it's blunt,then it's bound to slip.
I think anyone could learn without lessons,learning from the net and a few forums,and practice for hours at a time,there is a post on ganoksin with a print out sheet of practice lines.If you did them once a day for a year,you'd be good enough.

Everyone should have a few gravers,they come in really handy for tidying up solder in places,that a file wont reach.

[bob flemming]

Thank you, Goldsmith. Your work is absolutely splendid, by the way. Really.

[ps_bond]

Hi Bob - according to my cheatsheet, a #50 round graver is 0.2mm across (AKA #2). What help do you need with grinding them? I did think that Cogswell's instructions were pretty good, but these things are mebbe a bit daunting the first time round.

I've mixed feelings about trying to learn engraving from a book - yes, once you've got sharpening the tool down & the basic movements a lot of the detail in e.g. Art of Engraving or the Jewelry Engraver's Manual make a lot more sense, but having the immediate feedback in tuition is very, very useful. YMMV, of course.

The air assisted tools are a very different kettle of fish - although once I'd used my Airgraver for a while I found that my use of the hand-pushed was much improved; it's all the same movement after all, and the angle of attack on the graver is the same for a given sharpening angle & material... They're an expensive luxury for the likes of me though; a different matter for someone doing it full-time.

[bob flemming]

My problem is not having the equipment to grind them! Thanks for the info, Peter.

I actually only want to make some false channel settings and stitch the back of them to secure the stones, as explained in Cogswell's book - my bible. In any case, my college course starts soon, so I will make the settings and then ask my tutor if I can borrow an engraver for a day or so.

[ps_bond]

Strangely, I have :) - I can do them for you if you need - but you will need a decent sharpening stone to keep the tool sharp.

[bob flemming]

Oh, that is very, very kind of you, thank you so much. I need to order some more silver today so I will order a graver and then be in touch again. My father has sharpening stones so I can keep them sharp easily enough. Thanks again.

Do you think this is the sort of thing I should be getting? http://www.suttontools.co.uk/acatalog/info_GR182.html It's half round, they don't do round ones that small.

[ps_bond]

Ah... That's perhaps less useful to you; that's a short-shank graver specifically for fitting to pneumatic handpieces. You *can* get a graver handle that fits them, but you'd probably be better off with a Vallorbe graver (I don't feel HSS is needed for what you're describing - it's more work to sharpen). You'll need a suitable wooden handle too; style is down to personal preference only - I tend to like the mushroom/flat ones, but use pretty much whatever I have on hand at the time.

As for the stones, something like a Norton fine stone is good for general sharpening, you'll need something finer for polishing - #4 polishing paper works well, but so do the very fine grades of wet & dry (1200-2400). I usually go from ceramic to a piece of manilla card coated in Dialux Green for polishing my gravers; there are cheaper solutions than buying ceramic stones though.

[bob flemming]

Ah OK, how about http://www.suttontools.co.uk/acatalog/Sutton_Tools_Gravers___Swiss_Vallorbe_162.html specifically Sutton Tools Round Edge (http://www.suttontools.co.uk/acatalog/info_GR022.html?)

No problem with the sharpening, I think I have that covered with what I already have.

[bob flemming]

or indeed this one?

Spitzstick Scorper 2/0 :2/0 - Cooksongold.com (http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Spitzstick-Scorper-20-20-prcode-999-AZB)

[ps_bond]

The spitzstick - AKA onglette - is more of a curved knife edge; great for fine, deep cuts with the point or using the edge to cut away metal in carving (or bright cutting even), but it's a bit too pointy to use to raise beads IMO. I can see round-edge scorpers on Cookson's site, but not quite at the 0.2mm level - finest I can see is 0.4.

The Sutton one is spot on.

And yes, I do flick back and forth between calling them gravers and scorpers :)

[bob flemming]

Thanks again for taking the time to be so helpful. I'll order the Sutton one.

[Shaun750]

Here's two files to help with sharpening gravers. The pdf should print out the exact size needed.I used my computer engraver to mark the lines on a piece of laminate flooring,but if you print out the plan and cut out the lines,it should work just as well.

I checked the angles with a digital gauge.
Here's what i use to sharpen,6" DIAMOND SHARPENING WHETSTONE STONE SET CHISEL KNIFE on eBay (end time 03-Sep-10 18:47:25 BST) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/6-DIAMOND-SHARPENING-WHETSTONE-STONE-SET-CHISEL-KNIFE-/380264499899?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item588987cabb)
you can finish the heel with fine wet and dry

These gravers are just right for my graver,but you may have different.The holder is really hand for holding them in place,for sharpening
5 tungsten carbide square Watchmakers Lathe Gravers on eBay (end time 12-Sep-10 07:29:07 BST) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5-tungsten-carbide-square-Watchmakers-Lathe-Gravers-/220663446669?pt=UK_Jewellery_Watches_Pocket_Watche s_Accessories_ET&hash=item336090fc8d).
I've drawn up the shapes of some other point guides,but haven't tried them yet.
I'm also working on making dual angle fixture,that does the same thing as this
http://www.powertechtool.com/images/Tools/Engraving/Engraving5-3.jpg

It's a damn ugly looking thing though

[ps_bond]

That looks very similar to Steve Lindsey's sharpening system... As for the diamond stones, I've tried using the cheaper ones and found that they weren't terribly flat, and that small tools (like gravers) tend to catch in the cutouts - so went for some diamond credit cards instead. How are you getting around those? I'm not sure I'd suggest carbide to anyone starting out - they're not the most friendly of things to sharpen (well, unless you've got a power hone... ;) )!

Don't know if you've seen, but that EBay seller also does HSS 3/32 squares that are spot on for both the GRS systems & the Airgraver.

[Shaun750]

That looks very similar to Steve Lindsey's sharpening system... As for the diamond stones, I've tried using the cheaper ones and found that they weren't terribly flat, and that small tools (like gravers) tend to catch in the cutouts - so went for some diamond credit cards instead. How are you getting around those? I'm not sure I'd suggest carbide to anyone starting out - they're not the most friendly of things to sharpen (well, unless you've got a power hone... ;) )!

Don't know if you've seen, but that EBay seller also does HSS 3/32 squares that are spot on for both the GRS systems & the Airgraver.

Yes Peter.it's a total ripoff of the lyndsey guides,with a bit of measuring I managed to get it working.
The diamond sharpeners work . I go from side to side and then in between the holes. I think your credit card type,would be much easier to use,but I'm to cheap for them.
I've got quite a few gravers,that I've experimented with,these really thin ones work out quite nice once i've ground them down. I've got a microscope,that I've used in the past,and the smaller the graver the better,I think.

I'm afraid it's back to the drawing board with the dual angle fixture.It's either 100% right or it's useless!