F.A.O Steve - fake hallmark?!!

[silverlining]

Had contact with someone who has discovered a problem with their engagement ring purchased from another jeweller (one with good reviews apparently,but has recently changed business name).

The ring was sold as 18ct gold with .50ct diamond. The gold is turning silver on the outside so the owner took it to a high street jeweller who took a look and tested the diamond and informed the owner it is not infact a diamond. A 'certificate' of sorts, stating it was a diamond, the carat etc was given to the fiancé at sale.

The ring is hallmarked, with a BAO anchor. I'd find it highly unlikely for them to have made this mistake.

What does the lady need to do and what is likely to happen here? I have advised contacting BAO and others have suggested trading standards.

so what's the deal with this? She's rather upset,obvioulsy!

[Dennis]

Yes, that would be very upsetting.

If she does not already have it, she should obtain a written valuation from an independent valuer.

Her next call would be to the seller asking for a refund, but taking care not to relinquish any paperwork.

If it was paid for by credit card and presumably cost more than£100, the credit card company should be involved next.

Finally, trading standards will be concerned with a false description, as will the assay office. Dennis

[silverlining]

Shockingly it cost £1500, 5 years ago!

[pearlescence]

Straight to trading standards. who will obtain a full proper evaluation of the piece. Why should she pay for this when TS will want their own assay and evaluation anyway
Not just a false description but possible criminal fraud (obtaining by deception). Then sue in civil court after conviction to get money back

[trialuser]

I'm not sure the assay office will care much if the diamond is real or fake, but they would presumably be interested in the assay of the metal if you suspect it's not as marked.

[silverlining]

I'm not sure the assay office will care much if the diamond is real or fake, but they would presumably be interested in the assay of the metal if you suspect it's not as marked.

Obviously, it's just the state of the 'gold' that led to the jewellers testing the diamond and obviously with the diamond testing as fake it brings the 'gold' that's turned silver into greater question.

I have asked to ensure her fiance has the receipt etc and most definitely bought it from the retailer though, just in case he has actually fobbed her off. The ring was allegedly bought from a 'diamond expert' [redacted - sorry] whereas tbh I was expecting it to be from somewhere smaller and unheard of!

[silverlining]

That said,if he'd have fobbed her off that wouldn't explain the hallmark,would it!

[ps_bond]

Can I caution against naming the probable vendor - any error and there is the possibility of legal action arising. I have worked out who is being referred to using google, so it's not really obfuscated. For the time being I'll take the reference out as a precaution. Still very interested to hear how things go, but tread lightly

[silverlining]

Can I caution against naming the probable vendor - any error and there is the possibility of legal action arising. I have worked out who is being referred to using google, so it's not really obfuscated. For the time being I'll take the reference out as a precaution. Still very interested to hear how things go, but tread lightly

No problem. I was a bit wary of it but wanted to be able to give a roundabout way because I was quite surprised by it tbh and it made it more difficult to believe. It will certainly be interesting to see how it goes though.

so the question being asked now, ignoring the diamond issue, is whether there is anything at all that can cause gold to progressively turn silver. I've heard mercury can temporarily cause a silver colour. The jewellers it was taken too were quite shocked,said they'd never seen this happen before and due to the state of it asked her if they could test the diamond aswell.

Could it really be possible for both something happened to the gold (mercury?!) and the diamond tester have been wrong?

[pearlescence]

Without wondering which well known company, This would make sense if an actual bona fide ring had been substituted by a crooked staff member who pocketed the proceeds off the books?

[silverlining]

Without wondering which well known company, This would make sense if an actual bona fide ring had been substituted by a crooked staff member who pocketed the proceeds off the books?

Possible! Interestingly, it transpires that the fiancé also purchased it through another site they sell through rather than their own, at a lesser price than it was meant to be. However, the selling through that site is meant to be through them themselves. So wonder if somebody is up to something a bit crooked there

[Dennis]

This is like a real life who done it and we all like a mystery, so please let us know the eventual outcome.

Mercury contamination is rare, unless the wearer works in a laboratory or a dental practice, where the hazard would be well known.

There is also a pass the parcel element, in that the last person to handle it falls under suspicion. Imagine if you had accepted an item like that for repair. Dennis.

[ps_bond]

No problem. I was a bit wary of it but wanted to be able to give a roundabout way because I was quite surprised by it tbh and it made it more difficult to believe. It will certainly be interesting to see how it goes though.

Thanks for being understanding. I'll double-check my assumption - but it'll have to be during working hours.


so the question being asked now, ignoring the diamond issue, is whether there is anything at all that can cause gold to progressively turn silver. I've heard mercury can temporarily cause a silver colour. The jewellers it was taken too were quite shocked,said they'd never seen this happen before and due to the state of it asked her if they could test the diamond aswell.

Could it really be possible for both something happened to the gold (mercury?!) and the diamond tester have been wrong?

Did the jewellers not test the gold at the same time - given they had it in because the ring was changing colour, that perhaps ought to have been the focus rather than the diamond?
Mercury exposure I would assume would have to be recent to have caused a colour change now - there's some more info here: http://www.finishing.com/130/44.shtml
Toxicity issues may cause many jewellers to be twitchy about it.

As for the diamond test - yes, the hand held testers do occasionally throw a false negative, but it's down to the stone not being clean, the probe not being clean or user error. If there's doubt, then pulling the stone and checking RI & SG are simple. My tester threw a false negative the other week that was down to the stone not being clean - rechecked because I was pretty sure the stone was diamond.

If the ring is plated, then AIUI an X-ray fluorescent spectroscope won't be fooled (no, I don't have one but there's a company in Winchester makes cute hand-held ones), while the diamond really requires a proper appraisal. Given it's got Brum's mark on it they'd perhaps be the best people to write it up.

This is part of the reason that anything I get in for repair has non-specific descriptions. If the customer tells me it's a diamond, it is a colourless stone until such time as I have checked it. Gold is not gold, it is gold coloured. Won't completely cover me, I know, but it's an indication that I have not verified the actual makeup of the thing.

[silverlining]

No they didn't test the gold,just took one look nd instantly wanted to check the diamond!

Have been sent a pic now,not a great pic though.

So here's the offending article:
8052

[SteveLAO]

I think as others have said that your first port of call would be to the vendor, and ask for an explanation. If that's not forthcoming then the next step would be to citizens advice who would probably get trading standards involved if required. TS would then get the appropriate assay office involved if necessary for authentication.
There is little point in going straight to the assay office, because although they will be able to confirm (or not) the metal and hallmark for you, if it turns out to be wrong in some way, the assay offices have little power to enforce the law...that would be a trading standard issue...
Please keep us posted with your progress.

[pearlescence]

Caution: pass on this advice (especially Steve's cos he knows) and then keep out of it all. You could get sooooooooooo sucked into this and spend hours listening while the people involved dither about. Keep us informed yes, but be a bystander at a distance if you can

[silverlining]

That was my plan :) I know how easy it can be to get sucked into such things!

[Dennis]

If your first port of call is to be the vendor, then you must be sure of your facts, ie: you need an assay of the metal and a valuation of the stone.

If you have an unsatisfactory response from the vendor, then presuming it was paid for by card, the credit card company is equally liable and should take up the case, ultimately refunding you.

Dennis

[CJ57]

That was my plan :) I know how easy it can be to get sucked into such things!

You sort of have by offering to provide advice as if that goes badly they are likely to add you to the mix. Recently advised of an accident that occurred to a friend but also a Joe public visitor to an event and they shot the messenger rather spectacularly instead of thanking me. Won't do the right thing again

[silverlining]

Matter resolved. Firstly, it is a diamond but it's not the size it's meant to be.

The bizarre bit. The ring is indeed gold BUT it's white gold that the manufacturer had plated with yellow gold as they didn't have the right ring in stock in yellow and didn't want to lose the order....

[Dennis]

Ha Ha, what a fiasco.

[silverlining]

Indeed! And a bit stupid of the manufacturer too. Surely they knew the risks of plating wearing?!!!

[Aurarius]

The bizarre bit. The ring is indeed gold BUT it's white gold that the manufacturer had plated with yellow gold as they didn't have the right ring in stock in yellow and didn't want to lose the order....
That sounds very unusual practice to me. Maybe it isn't. Presumably there's an obligation to inform the customer at the time of sale that this is what has been done. If the customer wasn't informed, are there strong grounds for now demanding a free replacement with an unplated 18ct yellow shank?
Is the diamond heavier or lighter than described?
The whole thing sounds like a lesson in how not to sell someone a ring.

[silverlining]

From what I understand (will be given more detail later) the diamond appears to be around 20 points....

[ps_bond]

A yellow gold ring is a yellow gold ring, not a white gold ring with plating (nor a silver ring with gold plating for that matter).
Similarly, a .50 carat diamond is not a .20 carat diamond. A .5 carat diamond is around 5mm, while a .2 is a bit over 3.5 - a massive difference.

There's something decidedly odd about all of this.

[Patstone]

I have the same problem in reverse. My husband bought my wedding ring and an eternity ring later on, and both were plated gold, which we didnt know at the time it was sold as white gold. After a while the silver colour plating is now completely off, leaving one 9ct gold and the other is 18ct and that was from a reputable high street store. After 10 years I wont be complaining but it just shows it happens where you least expect it.

[silverlining]

It's quite interesting. Other complaints about the size of diamonds, from the same jeweller, being smaller than sold have cropped up. They aren't playing ball with the lady either!

The 'certificate' , as described, that came with it is rather interesting. States the diamond size, cut, colour and clarity then goes on to tell you that they cannot be held accountable for it being incorrect as it's all just a matter of opinion and not a science.

Not somewhere I'd buy from!

[pearlescence]

That exclusion clause has no standing in law. You can't get out of a legal requirement to apply a correct trade description by saying 'ohh but it might be wrong' on a piece of paper. Sale and Supply of Goods and Services Act and the Unfair Terms in Contracts regulations (and UCTA 77 etc). Plus basic contract law. If it went to court any judge would strike out that clause.
remarkable how so many quite big firms would not pass GCSE law. But of course that rubbish is enough to deter some complaints so it works, no matter how risible.

[ps_bond]

That's a fun one - as with medical diagnoses (and legal advice for that matter) there's a huge chunk of stone grading that is nothing more than (hopefully informed) opinion. Diamond colour grading seems particularly susceptible to differing opinions, sometimes varying by a couple of grades. That said, there are quantifiable, deterministic qualities too - weight being the easiest one.

The not accountable bit isn't going to fly though.

[SteveLAO]

On reputable certificates the colour grading of a single diamond is often done by several people and the average is taken, so that it's not just one person's opinion, which as ps bond says, can indeed be subjective. It's funny how in this day and age there are machines for recording the weight, the cut, the symmetry, even the clarity of a diamond, but not the colour yet! The human eye, like the human brain, is an amazing thing!

[pearlescence]

I suspect that pearl grading and assessing is possibly the most fraught of them all. There aren't even agreed standards.