Ingot mould, molten silver pouring etc. help please...

[Oberon]

A new year which means teaching my self something new, which also means asking you wonderful people!

I have been asked by family friends to make their wedding rings from old silver items they have.

Me being me I said yes of course, and now am having to learn what to do....

I cannot afford a rolling mill so got an ingot mould with the smallest channels I could and on MizGeorge recommendation I have ordered a WHIP system.

Does the ingot mould need pre treating or lining with oil as I have seen in some places and does the bowl need treating in the WHIP system like a scorifier does? I have a pile of scraps I am going to play with first but any advice would be marvelous. Bear in mind I am a self taught (over) enthusiastic amateur working on a workbench in my bay window in my front room with hand held torches (including the Go System style Dennis recommended).

For D wire I had got a draw plate and tongs but figured using the mould open would have similar effect without the need for a gym membership beforehand...

and where does flux come in and do the scrapsneed pickling before I work with them (and other really basic things you can tell me!)?

Many thanks in advance,

Sarah

[Tabby66]

Hi Sarah,

I'm sure that some far more useful folk will be along, but for starters, (i'm not sure what kind of ingot mould you have), but I prepped mine with this http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Easy-Flo-Flux-Powder---250gm-Un3288-Toxic-prcode-PZZ-010, I also drop a good pinch of it in to the melt up to help it flow in to one 'lump'. Hope you manage without a rolling mill, silver melt ups can be prone to fractures, particularly along the edges, so keep annealing and leave sufficient excess to file back to good metal!!

Good luck :)

[Dennis]

Dear Sarah,

Before you get too deeply into this, please think about silver for wedding bands. It is the softest of metals and is likely to wear out beyond use in a year or so. Sooner if the wearer does rough work.

It would also need plenty of work hardening on a triblet, to keep it a round shape.

Perhaps you could just sell the silver for scrap and use the proceeds to buy 9ct white gold D shaped wire to make your ring out of. This from experience
would still be going strong in fifteen years or more.

Sorry to be a wet blanket. Dennis.

[Oberon]

Tabby66 thank you, the flux bit is reassuring as that was where I was going... And thank you for reminding me about the annealing! I have this sort of mould... http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/27/c7ea8013140514714fb4693af6a2b251.jpg


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[Oberon]

Dennis,

Thank you... Silver wise they have a particular item they want to re use as it has sentimental value. I have to say I only wear solve and my wedding band is now silver and I have been wearing I t without taking it off for 8 years along with a silver engagement ring that I have worn for 15 years. They want something quite chunky so hopefully it will last... Hardening on a triblet?? Can you elucidate for me please... Thank you!


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[enigma]

Cant really help as I pour mine then put it through the rolling mill but just to say I stir it with a carbon rod then add a good pinch of borax about 2 minutes before pouring which works for me, Im certainly no expert though!

[Dennis]

Well, the poured ingot will be soft and slightly porous. Normally the metal would be worked to stretch the crystals, by rolling with a mill and then drawing through a draw plate. This is the metallic equivalent of kneading bread dough.

Without this, the metal will have a similar quality to metal fired from clay which is is porous, soft and brittle. To continue the analogy, you will make short crust instead.

You will still have to form your poured rod into a ring on a triblet, or mandrel (a tapered steel rod), prior to soldering the ends.

Actually I am not sure now about what I wrote above, because I have never needed to form un-worked metal from ingot to ring. So I don't know how much forming it would take before cracking. I do know however that due to the porosity soldering could be a problem.

Many of these caveats would disappear, if you could join a class (possibly in the evenings) where all the necessary equipment would be available and a teacher could guide you. Dennis.

[Oberon]

Dennis,

For somebody who cooks almost as much as they make jewellery that was the most perfectly understandable analogy for me 😄. I use silver clay a lot too me know rings in fine silver are much softer... Perhaps I will fight with the annealing and draw plate, want it to be as good as I can make it. Classes are tricky, none locally, expensive otherwise and I have a special needs son who it is hard to get care for. He is low level special needs but can't be left with baby sitters other than my mum (who has a way better social life than me!)... All the advice is invaluable though, thank you again. Consolidates all the different Google bits if you know what I mean...?

Sarah


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[caroleallen]

I'm not sure hand held torches will be hot enough for melting ingots. I have a Sievert with a massive nozzle and I still struggle to get everything hot enough. You have to get everything hot at the same time - silver and mold - and keep them hot while you pour. I've never found those molds at all successful as the silver always cools before it gets right down into the channel and I end up with a stumpy blob.

Also have you thought about using the Delft clay system? You could make your rings from wax and cast from that. You still need a hot torch though.

[trialuser]

you might be better off just casting the rings directly in delft clay or something.
Make a 'model' ring using silver or wax or something, press it into the clay, follow the tutorials on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0sCDTRwMwg), bob's your uncle.
It is possible to cast an ingot in a steel mold (can be a sod to get the silver to run into the smaller diameter holes) or a bit of charcoal, forge it out into a bar, hammer it through a swage block to swage the shape and then bend it into a ring, but it is a lot of faffing about.
Edit: slow typing - beaten to it :-)

[Oberon]

Ooh thank you, I have been looking at trying casting so could kill two birds with one stone! Thank you for the clip too, really helps 😊. So I could make a 'perfect' correct size d wire ring in sterling, then make a mould and cast with the bits with the sentimental value. Now that sounds like a plan!


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[mizgeorge]

I think pretty much everything's been covered apart from the question about conditioning the WHIP - and yes, I do so with borax - a couple of times before using a new one - just until it's nice and smooth.

I know Nic posted some pictures about this a few years ago: http://www.cooksongold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2246

[Oberon]

Thank you , I did it to the scorifier quite successfully but Nics tutorials have been very useful in the past so shall be following that! Thanks do much for the link...
And got the previous advice re WHIP system, I am v left hand and even playing without molten metal I was having trouble with the scorifier & tongs (even as a former school science tech who should know better) I know I will feel a lot safer with the kit you recommended. (You do heat the metal in the dish a opposed to heating the dish to melt the metal don't you? Daft question I know but...)

Sarah


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[mizgeorge]

Yes :) And not daft at all - heat the metal in the dish. I never got on with conventional scorifiers either, and love how lightweight the WHIP is.

[Tabby66]

Just to add, having seen the ingots, I think the suggestions regarding the delft clay are worth pursuing Sarah. Getting and then keeping the ingots and the molten silver hot enough to maintain a good flow is going to be quite a challenge!! Hope all goes well xx

[Oberon]

Just to update you after your help, the first go was a disaster 😄. Did a test run using a carved out charcoal block and I have a long sort of stringy bit and a big blob, not quite the effect I was after but hey ho as they try, try and try again 😉.


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[josef1]

Also have a look at dried cuttle fish casting,they can be bought from the pet shop for budgies


http://www.instructables.com/id/Cuttlefish-Casting/

[Oberon]

Josef1, already got there thank you! Mum dispatched today with my son and bought some 😄. I will let you know if that is any more successful. At least they are cheap so if I mess it up it won't bankrupt me!!


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[Myosotis]

I've always preferred using cuttlefish with an assortment of knitting needles to cast rod, never had much success with ingot moulds.

its been a while since I attached a photo - see if this works

74657466

[Oberon]

Thank you for the pics :-)... And good to be reassured that I had worked out a good way to try! Do you put vent holes in too or just the one for the wire?


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[Myosotis]

I poke a bit of a saw blade through a few times which is enough for venting but not too chunky so you won't get 'branches' off the main rod.

Also this may seem obvious but it's vital that it's well clamped or supported to ensure that it will not tip over when you're pouring.

[Oberon]

Thank you 😊. Will give it a go in the morning and let you know how it goes!


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[Myosotis]

And it really stinks as well

[Oberon]

Worse than liver of sulphur?? Ok thanks for heads up! Will open the windows 😳😁


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[Oberon]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/03/24c0c513d6ea37fb6ba9069335ec9ccc.jpg almost there.... 😄


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[Oberon]

The cuttlefish was a bit of a disaster, poured silver all over the clamp and then had a £450 vets bill because the cat had an allergic reaction to it!! So I tried the ingot mould and look... http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/05/68f68449276a33ca21c10dfdaa263be3.jpgonly my second pour and it worked!!!!


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[Myosotis]

Blimey - allergic reaction to what, the cuttlefish?

[metalsmith]

Molten silver? ... most people do! :snowball:

[Dennis]

Congratulations for succeeding, Sarah. Lots of people have given up on ingot moulds. Do let us know how you get on with making a ring now. Dennis.

[caroleallen]

Congratulations for succeeding, Sarah. Lots of people have given up on ingot moulds. Do let us know how you get on with making a ring now. Dennis.

Me for one!

Well done Sarah. Sorry to hear about the cat though.

[metalsmith]

Hope moggy is ok now (sorry where are my manners!?!?)

[Tabby66]

Very sorry to hear about your poor cat :(

Wow, (apart from poor kitty), that is a great result Sarah!!