Help with making a ring

[Rylkan]

Hi all.

I am brand new to working with metal based art, and am hoping to pick the brains of those who have been doing this for awhile for help with a project I am working on.

I am working on an engagement ring and while I have tried to read up on the subject, I've run into a stumbling point out of the gate. As a quick background the desired design is to have an inlay of mokume gane in the middle of the band, surrounded by sterling silver. On the top would go silver wiring molded into a solitaire setting.

As for my materials and setup I purchased a "jewelry grade" billet of mokume gane to work with, and managed to pick up an old jewelry mill on a really good sale in my local area. I already have a number of other tools on hand as well to help cut and handle the metal.

My plan was to cut out a small strip of the mokume gane and roll it out to the specified dimensions. The videos I have seen of this process show people cold rolling the metal to the desired shape, but when I try to do this I make no progress or the metal snaps. When I try to heat it up with my mapp torch, it causes the metal to become too brittle and it will snap during rolling as well. The only other option that comes to mind is to slowly heat a portion of the billet up to a suitable temperature in a kiln of some sort instead of using the torch. But I wanted to check with others before making any big step in buying equipment to do such a thing.

The rest of my plan was to buy a small gauge sheet of sterling silver and heat that up and solder the rolled mokume inlay on top of it then fold the silver up along the sides. At this point I envisioned bending the metal into the ring shape and soldering it closed. But given the trouble I've been having with heating this metal and not ruining it, I wanted to see what people thought about this step as well.

I realize everyone here is quite advanced, so I apologize about just picking your brains with basic questions, but any help with this project would be incredibly appreciated.

Thanks,
Rylkan

[LydiaNiz]

I think Peter is your man here. A picture of the design would help as I'm having trouble picturing it. I've used pre-made mokume gane before, I'm struggling to see why you are rolling the gane rather than just cutting to size. Are you using copper/silver mokume or gold/silver? I've only used the former and it takes a lot of annealing (I found), and a lot of heat (I was making a wide ring with a sterling silver backing) to sweat solder.

[Rylkan]

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the help.

I've attached a sketch I have of what I am envisioning. I've not entirely figured out the setting yet, so I've not done anything fancy with my sketches. I am envisioning just making a regular band and then soldering it down onto the band.

The image I uploaded got resized oddly, so I will upload a link to it when I am allowed to post URLs.

As for rolling the mokume gane, that was at least in part due to me just wanting to know how to do it. I've saved enough metal to just cut out the needed piece of metal, but since I've seen rolling performed on the metal it seemed like a good chance to learn the process.

[LydiaNiz]

Ah ok, the setting should not be a problem. I'm assuming you're using the copper/silver mix mokume gane. I've never tried rolling it before - as I could only purchase it in thin 0.5 sheet, and was soldering it to 0.8 sterling of equal width (10mm). I did find it required patience in forming (many anneals - heat/pickle) and soldering once the band was formed. I used Baldwin's patina to darken the copper, which was quite pleasing. I'd certainly recommend annealing prior to rolling.

[CJ57]

Lydia is right, as Peter makes mokume gane he will be the man to give the best advice on this

[ps_bond]

It really shouldn't snap with normal use, I'm a bit puzzled by that. Your torch is overkill, a simple propane torch will give you enough heat to anneal the metal so it may be that you are overheating it.
Try drawing on it with a black permanent marker and watching for the colour to fade out, that should give a reasonable idea of how hot it is.
Overheated Cu/Ag mokume gane extends the alloyed zone between the 2 metals - and is essentially a solder given how low the MP of the alloy is.
Out of interest, where did you get the billet?

[Dennis]

There seems to be a problem with how you are annealing your metal, as you say it becomes more brittle.
Could you describe your method?

When rolling down an unfamiliar metal, you should also close the mill down very gradually and anneal frequently. Dennis.

[Rylkan]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I wasn't exactly sure of the best method, so I tried to at least visually follow some tutorials I have seen for heating the metal. I was using the mapp torch I have and trying to apply even heat to the metal by moving the flame around to all the sides repeatedly. I did have it close to the nozzle, though, so like you said ps_bond, I might have been going too hot with the mapp. I did test a piece with a propane torch as well, though. I had little luck with that as well. In fact, one additional thing I failed to mention that was in both cases the metal caught flame, so it seems it had already been treated with some kind of patina or what not. I got the billet from M3 metals since I was unsure of a preferred distributor.

I've talked with a few other jewelry makers, and they had some additional suggestions. One of which was to avoid using a small guage sheet of silver and wrapping it around the mokume gane, but to rather cut out separate pieces. One to go on the inside of the band and one for each side. I would then just solder them on to the mokume gane strip. At this point I would then heat the metal and form the ring shape.

They also advised me against using silver since that wears out much faster from continued use. So I may try following that advice and use a few strips of platinum or palladium instead. I assume if I used the proper mokume gane, it would also solder itself to this metal? Would it still do this if I applied the flux to protect the metal though? I am fine with just soldering it together, but good to know my options.

Clear Skies,
Rylkan

[ps_bond]

I've not come across M3 Metals - Reactive Metals do ready-made mokume gane however, they're well regarded.

On wear - silver is not the problem, copper is. Short version: Copper and silver create an electrolytic cell that, in the presence of a suitable electrolyte (sweat), causes electrolytic corrosion of the silver.
Longer version: http://ganoksin.com/blog/binnion/2012/11/23/copper-and-silver-rings-may-not-be-such-a-good-idea/

The advice of using palladium or platinum as liners is... Unwise, shall we say. Being polite. Firstly, you can't solder it even with your MAPP torch, you need oxy/propane as a minimum. Secondly, if you solder the Pt with the Cu/Ag in situ you will have a a puddle due to the soldering temp being way over the MP of the mokume. Thirdly... If I were using Pt, I wouldn't pair it with Cu/Ag, I'd look at Pt/Au or similar. But in that regard I'm a stuckist - I wouldn't put a plastic gem with 18k either :)

If you can get hold of Steve Midgett's mokume gane book - at least, if you can find it at a sensible price - then it'll be immensely helpful. I confess my copy annoys me slightly as it wants to be both a coffee table book and a workshop book at the same time.

[Dennis]

Dear Rylcan,

If you look at the M3 web site, they say specifically that their billets cannot be forged, soldered rolled or bent.
It appears therefore that you need to turn rings on a lathe, and expand any linings around them. You can also cold connect flat pieces, by setting, or riveting, as shown in one of their samples.

If I have interpreted what they say correctly, then that explains why you are not succeeding. Dennis

http://www.m3mokume.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=700

http://www.metalpenblanks.com/jewelry_grade_billets.htm

[ps_bond]

The "classic mokume" is aluminium and copper. Reading between the marketing BS, this sounds like a filled epoxy material with absolutely no correlation with real mokume gane.
Would also explain why it caught fire.

[Rylkan]

Dear Rylcan,

If you look at the M3 web site, they say specifically that their billets cannot be forged, soldered rolled or bent.
It appears therefore that you need to turn rings on a lathe, and expand any linings around them. You can also cold connect flat pieces, by setting, or riveting, as shown in one of their samples.

If I have interpreted what they say correctly, then that explains why you are not succeeding. Dennis

http://www.m3mokume.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=700

http://www.metalpenblanks.com/jewelry_grade_billets.htm

Okay, I feel rather silly for missing that. I skimmed their website but spent most of my time in the past few weeks reading up on the metal working techniques. The good thing is I am used to working with wood, and I have the tools to work it into shape that way. Though now I wonder how well the soldering would go to get the other pieces of metal adhered to the mokume gane like thing I have now. I may reconsider using it all together or go with the other provider ps_bond mentioned.


On wear - silver is not the problem, copper is. Short version: Copper and silver create an electrolytic cell that, in the presence of a suitable electrolyte (sweat), causes electrolytic corrosion of the silver.
Longer version: http://ganoksin.com/blog/binnion/2012/11/23/copper-and-silver-rings-may-not-be-such-a-good-idea/

The advice of using palladium or platinum as liners is... Unwise, shall we say. Being polite. Firstly, you can't solder it even with your MAPP torch, you need oxy/propane as a minimum. Secondly, if you solder the Pt with the Cu/Ag in situ you will have a a puddle due to the soldering temp being way over the MP of the mokume. Thirdly... If I were using Pt, I wouldn't pair it with Cu/Ag, I'd look at Pt/Au or similar. But in that regard I'm a stuckist - I wouldn't put a plastic gem with 18k either :)

If you can get hold of Steve Midgett's mokume gane book - at least, if you can find it at a sensible price - then it'll be immensely helpful. I confess my copy annoys me slightly as it wants to be both a coffee table book and a workshop book at the same time.

Thanks for the advice on this. My reading up on the topic led me to believe Pt especially would be a bad choice for many of the reasons you said above, but since I am new at this, I didn't want to disregard the advice I got out of hand.

I will definitely do some reading up on the copper and silver issue, though.