Borax dish

[CJ57]

I've at last recieved today the borax dish which I ordered back in Aug. I bought it for another workshop so a bit concerned about its condition as mine is too old to remember what it was like new.
The interior of the dish is so rough it would strip paint, is this what it should be like?

[Dennis]

Yes, that is to rub the borax off the cone. When you leave borax to dry out in it, some of that roughness disappears, euphemistically called conditioning.

Borax is like Marmite: I hate it to pieces.

[CJ57]

Well I hope the workshop knows what to do with it as they aren't getting mine. The reason Cookson stated for the order taking eh 4 months was the weren't happy with the dishes being supplied , I still have to wonder as there is going to be a lot of grit and it takes the skin off your fingers!

[emsterv]

Quick question about borax since its on the table.. I'm half taking lessons (one every couple of weeks) from a local goldsmith. I use Batterns self pickling flux since that's what he uses. Is there one that's better than the other when working with silver? I know he works mainly in gold and platinum and I don't have the skills or the $$ to incorporate any gold yet.

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[CJ57]

It seems to be preference and ease now. I was taught to use borax cone and dish and then I moved onto Auflux because it was a one stage flux and was easy to use. I'm thinking of going back to borax again at the moment. As Dennis said its a marmite thing, you either love or hate borax, I just can't remember :) I will have to get back to you once I have some proper soldering to do

[metalsmith]

It seems to be preference and ease now. I was taught to use borax cone and dish and then I moved onto Auflux because it was a one stage flux and was easy to use. I'm thinking of going back to borax again at the moment. As Dennis said its a marmite thing, you either love or hate borax, I just can't remember :) I will have to get back to you once I have some proper soldering to do


I've only ever used Borax. I grate some down and run it into a test-tube and then tip in some ground solder. Seems to work ok.

Would be interested to hear what are others' cases for / against ...

[enigma]

I mostly use Auflux as Im mostly too lazy to use borax, other than the prep though I don't really have a preference.
Maybe I should get some borax grinding elves :-"

[CJ57]

Making a paste with water in the dish creates a smooth emulsion, I'm not sure why I got lazy because it didn't seem difficult to do for years when there was no other alternative !

[Moon Willow]

I've used borax all my working life mixed on a slate and the main reason, it has staying power.

Mix it thick (creamy) and it will outlast most other fluxes under prolonged heating and it's essential when
using brass solder which needs temperatures in excess of 1000c

Another plus factor with a cone is you can use it direct onto your heated work.

Having actually taught a few soldering classes at the B.C.School of Jewellery I've demonstrated the pros and cons
of quite a few bottled fluxes and although they can be quite good on small jobs the flux will quickly perish if exposed
to prolonged heat (faster than borax) on larger pieces.

Carlton

[Patstone]

I have just done the same Caroline, only because I ran out of Auflux, but the solder pallions do seem to stay on the silver better. I had a problem a few months ago with solder pallions jumping off the silver while the silver was hot, but with borax it doesnt (that was another reason for going back to borax).

[Goldsmith]

Like Carlton I have used a borax cone for fluxing all of my working life, never had any soldering problems using it, it's cheap and reliable, my acid pickle cleans it off easily. If it ain't broke why fix it.

James

[Nick martin]

I've only ever used a borax cone and dish, and find it very effective and easy to use if applied with fine tipped brushes on clean surfaces.

Nick


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[Dennis]

My acid pickle cleans it off easily. James

I think that is one of the problems, James. Borax forms a glaze, which is slow to come off in safety pickle. Dennis.

[Moon Willow]

I think that is one of the problems, James. Borax forms a glaze, which is slow to come off in safety pickle. Dennis.

I agree Dennis borax does form a glaze if you apply it as a thick paste and your flame isn't on it for too long.

If mixed thin and soldered quickly then it spends a shorter time in the pickle.

If your pickle is strong and hot your work will only take a few minutes.

I've watched students spend 10 minutes or more with acuflux (and similar) trying to solder their work not realising that it had perished
9 mins ago and asking "Why hasn't my solder run"

Each to their own, I've usually got more than one project on the the go and often forget I've put something in the pickle hours before.

[Goldsmith]

I must admit I have no experience of modern fluxes or safety pickles. My pickle is made from 1 part sulphuric acid added to 4 parts water, then it is gently heated in a lidded Pyrex casserole bowl on a gas ring. When the pickle is hot my soldered pieces only take a few seconds in the mixture to be clean of flux etc.
Have you also spent hours soldering CBE badge stamping halves together with enamel silver solder Carlton? Borax worked well for that job.

James

[caroleallen]

I used to use borax but converted to Auflux and much prefer it. I have a little dropper bottle which works well. I also use alum as a pickle which I like because it's not too harmful to the environment and also because it doesn't attack enamel too badly.

[Moon Willow]

I must admit I have no experience of modern fluxes or safety pickles. My pickle is made from 1 part sulphuric acid added to 4 parts water, then it is gently heated in a lidded Pyrex casserole bowl on a gas ring. When the pickle is hot my soldered pieces only take a few seconds in the mixture to be clean of flux etc.
Have you also spent hours soldering CBE badge stamping halves together with enamel silver solder Carlton? Borax worked well for that job.

James

Ahhhh memories C.B.E's soldered together, these days they are stamped as one along with M.B.E's, O.B.E's, Victoria Order mmmmmmm
actual fact everything that has 2 sides these days are "die set" the last cross that I made in 2 half's was a DSO pictured below in my grubby hand.

Carlton


7122 (7121

[Goldsmith]

I have also made a few DSOs and the GCBs and KCBs, each quarter on the Bath orders cross was made from two hollow stamped halves then soldered together, before all 4 quarters were soldered onto a central tube. I still have a box of KCB lion castings somewhere. If you look closely at my profile photo you can see that was me making a Field Marshal's baton back in 1973, did you ever make any of them Carlton?

7123

James

[Moon Willow]

I have also made a few DSOs and the GCBs and KCBs, each quarter on the Bath orders cross was made from two hollow stamped halves. I still have a box of KCB lion castings somewhere. If you look closely at my profile photo you can see that was me making a Field Marshal's baton back in 1973, did you ever make any of them Carlton?

7123

James

Yep all of those except the baton, I actually make an appearance on BBC 4 program "Britain's Oldest Families" Toye.... blink and you'll miss me,
I think I'm holding a MBE (You Tube)

We still produce "Order of the Bath" Royal Victoria Order as well as the Central Chancery

Just notice the dirty borax cone in the dish, tut tut.... folks always make sure your borax is clean.

Ha ha ha James I love that picture.

Carlton

[emsterv]

Interest responses. Seems to be a personal thing for the most part. I've never seen borax in action - does it readily flow through the piece via capillary action or is it easier to control where you want it to go? Sometimes when I'm trying to do something finicky and don't want to bother with a solder resistance (say when making a hinge) I find myself wishing Batterns wasn't quite so flow-y.

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[Moon Willow]

Interest responses. Seems to be a personal thing for the most part. I've never seen borax in action - does it readily flow through the piece via capillary action or is it easier to control where you want it to go? Sometimes when I'm trying to do something finicky and don't want to bother with a solder resistance (say when making a hinge) I find myself wishing Batterns wasn't quite so flow-y.

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Well if you need to control your flux you need to mix it to a thicker paste and put less onto your piece (stops it spreading)

Soldering a seam or a bezel (when making a box or locket) I always warm the piece before painting on my borax (paste)
this burns off and eliminates any excess grease and helps the flux to travel into and through any seams you're about to solder.

No matter what flux you use you can contain your solder by first painting on jewellers rouge (solder won't run onto it)

Carlton

[Goldsmith]

Yep all of those except the baton, I actually make an appearance on BBC 4 program "Britain's Oldest Families" Toye.... blink and you'll miss me,
I think I'm holding a MBE (You Tube)

We still produce "Order of the Bath" Royal Victoria Order as well as the Central Chancery

Just notice the dirty borax cone in the dish, tut tut.... folks always make sure your borax is clean.

Ha ha ha James I love that picture.

Carlton

I did watch the Toye program when it was on the TV, I shall have a look on Youtube. Have you seen this film on Youtube, Carlton, I am on it for a few seconds piercing an egg; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdn3T3b1vkQ&feature=youtu.be

[Moon Willow]

Just clocked it James and it has been downloaded to watch later (looking for tips) your left hand must have
ached for a while after that impressive piece of sawpiercing.

Was that the boss who gave it the once over after you finished ?

Carlton

[metalsmith]

Cool. You mentioned this some time back and I couldn't find it at the time.

I'm not sure the naff LCD dynamic graphics jewellery line ever caught on (but maybe I'm missing something). Miniaturising the computer and directly feeding into the nervous system: now there's a man ahead of his time!

Is there not a resources section of the forum this could go - or stickies?

[susieq]

Soldering with me is still somewhat hit and miss although getting better with advice given on the forum - I generally use borax but recently for a chain with lots of jump rings I have used auflux.

The advantage of auflux was that my pallions of solder didn't dance like demented fleas as I heated the piece - the pallions stayed where they were placed before flowing; the downside was that as I am not very experienced in soldering and it was hard to tell when the rings were the correct temperature for the solder to flow as there was no change in colour of the auflux.

With borax, I can see the various changes in colour of the flux and have a much better understanding of when piece is heated enough for the solder to flow; the downside is that I need to heat slowly to stop the solder jumping off the join first and even then no matter how careful I am they often still jump off. I have tried pick soldering, but have had little success at this as once balled up the solder seems to stick to everything but the join I am trying to attach it to.

My biggest problem, other than crappy solder joins, is fire scale. I tend to just use borax on the metal to protect it, but sometimes it seems to flake off when heating. I'm assuming this is because the metal isn't completely grease free, but I pickle and rinse first which I would have thought would clean it enough, but doesn't. I do use the green scourers/emery paper to clean up joints first, but find it hard not to end up rounding up the edges I'm wanting to solder.

I guess the answer is practice practice and then practice some more.

[Goldsmith]

Just clocked it James and it has been downloaded to watch later (looking for tips) your left hand must have
ached for a while after that impressive piece of sawpiercing.

Was that the boss who gave it the once over after you finished ?

Carlton

Yes Carlton, that was one of my two bosses, the late Peter McCabe, when they were filming he wanted to be the star and did all of the talking.My other boss David McCarty kept out of the way. Peter McCabe was an enameller who also owned Kempson & Mauger, the enamelling section of the company. The other boss David McCarty is a fine goldsmith who is still working. He was Cartier trained and he sat at the bench next to me for 9 years. I was making a lot of eggs that year so I entered three into the annual Goldsmith's Craft Council competition and that year I won 1st, 2nd. and a Commended in the Senior Smallworkers section along with the Asprey Award.
That photo was taken by Andrew Lawson when he interviewed me for inclusion in his book "Handmade in London" .

James

[ps_bond]

I've not heard anything back from CBC about it (having asked permission - I'm not certain they're bothered about copyright at that age), so I'll put the video & audio through some filters and redo the thing "real soon now".

[Goldsmith]

I've not heard anything back from CBC about it (having asked permission - I'm not certain they're bothered about copyright at that age), so I'll put the video & audio through some filters and redo the thing "real soon now".

That would be good of you Peter, it has had quite a few viewings so far I see since I mentioned it on the Facebook groups I am in. Some of the workshops shown on the film are history now and a lot of the craftsmen shown are not with us anymore, which is a pity.

James

[CJ57]

Thanks for all your input on the original question guys, I wouldn't have bothered had it been for me but its some of the equipment this workshop asked me to buy http://www.garvaldedinburgh.org.uk and as they've been waiting since Aug for the order to arrive I don't want to send them something I'm not sure is fit for purpose :/

[metalsmith]

the downside is that I need to heat slowly to stop the solder jumping off the join first and even then no matter how careful I am they often still jump off. I have tried pick soldering, but have had little success at this as once balled up the solder seems to stick to everything but the join I am trying to attach it to.

...sometimes it seems to flake off when heating. I'm assuming this is because the metal isn't completely grease free, but I pickle and rinse first which I would have thought would clean it enough, but doesn't.

It sounds like you are hitting some of the problems that I was commonly finding. My cut jump rings were good, but they were small relative to the pallions. I didn't want the jump rings to stick together so that I would take the heat off immediately the solder began to run. The outcome was that the rings were lumpy and took a lot of manual tidying.

As a next step, I used open jump rings alternated with soldered closed jump rings. Those soldered closed individually were better of course because the solder was left to run evenly. I took a look at various pastes and opted to make a trial with my own using http://www.cooksongold.com/Solders/Silver-Solder-Powder---Easy-60----Mesh-Coarse-prcode-PTI-000. This is kept in a test tube with Borax which I grind to a milky (and very runny) consistency. Soldering is done with a paint brush in which I choose to sweep up as much solder powder as I choose from the bottom of the test tube and dab off the excess powder / liquid until I have just what I wish to apply remaining on the brush.

The mix is applied from the brush to the join and runs into it from the start although the coarse-ground remains on the join as the join is too fine for the powder to enter. However, it doesn't have to sit - as the pallions do - on top of the jump ring and 'find' the joint to seal. Hope this helps

[susieq]

This is kept in a test tube with Borax which I grind to a milky (and very runny) consistency.

Thanks metalsmith

That sounds very interesting - never knew soldering grain existed, although I tend to try and use hard solder and avoid easy. What ratio of borax to solder do you use? And do you mix up a fresh batch for each soldering session?

Susie

[Dennis]

The mix is applied from the brush to the join and runs into it from the start although the coarse-ground remains on the join as the join is too fine for the powder to enter. However, it doesn't have to sit - as the pallions do - on top of the jump ring and 'find' the joint to seal. Hope this helps

It looks as if you could try this out for a small job, by filing solder onto a folded sheet of paper and tipping the filings into the borax mix. Something I have seen recommended for filigree too.

You would avoid all the smoke and uncertainties of the dreaded solder paste. Dennis.

[metalsmith]

Thanks metalsmith

That sounds very interesting - never knew soldering grain existed, although I tend to try and use hard solder and avoid easy. What ratio of borax to solder do you use? And do you mix up a fresh batch for each soldering session?

Susie

I'll maybe post a photo on here tomorrow. The tube sits with <10mm of grain and about double that of dilute borax over and above that. The grain is essentially borax-wetted grain rather than paste. I get most of the liquid off the brush before applying. I mix a batch and it will last me for a few sessions or a few weeks if I don't do much. Longevity doesn't seem to be a problem.

Yes, I think Dennis' idea is good, but tbh I tried with a few £ of solder grain and have never looked back...

[Moon Willow]

Soldering with me is still somewhat hit and miss although getting better with advice given on the forum - I generally use borax but recently for a chain with lots of jump rings I have used auflux.

The advantage of auflux was that my pallions of solder didn't dance like demented fleas as I heated the piece - the pallions stayed where they were placed before flowing; the downside was that as I am not very experienced in soldering and it was hard to tell when the rings were the correct temperature for the solder to flow as there was no change in colour of the auflux.

With borax, I can see the various changes in colour of the flux and have a much better understanding of when piece is heated enough for the solder to flow; the downside is that I need to heat slowly to stop the solder jumping off the join first and even then no matter how careful I am they often still jump off. I have tried pick soldering, but have had little success at this as once balled up the solder seems to stick to everything but the join I am trying to attach it to.

My biggest problem, other than crappy solder joins, is fire scale. I tend to just use borax on the metal to protect it, but sometimes it seems to flake off when heating. I'm assuming this is because the metal isn't completely grease free, but I pickle and rinse first which I would have thought would clean it enough, but doesn't. I do use the green scourers/emery paper to clean up joints first, but find it hard not to end up rounding up the edges I'm wanting to solder.

I guess the answer is practice practice and then practice some more.

Borax by its very nature always bubbles up when heated and i have soldered thousands of rings in my lifetime, the knack to soldering.

Starts with your tweezers, I always file them into a point (enables me to pick up my little pieces of solder)

It's strange but unlike everyone (almost) I've never cut up my solder and put it into wet flux (borax) this is because when you grab the solder
you'll have flux on your tweezers.

I'm already on record as saying that the flux in syringe solder is hard to control and runs everywhere too quickly with the solder close behind,
the acuflux (or similar) is basically water so when heated doesn't bubble up like borax (covering the solder ) and this is why the bottom piece
of solder runs and the top bit remains lumpy.

The trick of soldering your jump ring is to mix your borax to a paste, flash a little heat onto your piece (not too much that your brush sticks)
dab a little onto the join ....... next bit is important..... you need to heat the borax till it rises and settles down to become STICKY brown, and
as soon as this happens you need to place the solder onto the join, (the flame moves away as the solder goes on) wait too long and the
borax will set (hard)

The technique to covering your work completely with borax is to keep heating it gently and keep painting the borax on until it doesn't peel back.

Sorry this reply took so long I haven't been able to get onto the site since Friday.

Carlton