Swage problems

[Vanessa]

Hello

I am a bit stuck as to how to swage two small pieces of Guilding metal ... They are 0.9mm thick, 50mm long, 20mm wide at one end and 4mm wide the other ... I tried to shape them in a swage block today and cant get the smaller (4mm) end to form at all... Need them to curve so I can put them together to make a swaged tube I'm making for my insect. Any advice please? Thanks V

[trialuser]

If I understand correctly what you are wanting to do, the small end of the cone will have a circumference of 8mm (2 x 4mm).
Therefore the external diameter will only be about 2.5mm, the gauge is 0.9mm, so the internal diameter is about 0.7mm.
Are you swaging it with tools of about those dimensions, the figures are a bit rough and ready, or perhaps (probably), I've misunderstood you.

[Vanessa]

Well I suppose it could be called a cone but its more like a tapered tube ... I have two pieces of metal that I've cut out... They both measure 20mm at the base and 4mm at the top and it is 5 cm high which fits my design. I just want to know how to curve the smaller end in the swage block... I apologise if my dimensions don't sound right I'm a student in my first term and I am learning as I go along...
Oh dear I don't know about the inner and outer dimensions of the swage tube that I want to make - but I know the metal I am using is 0.9mm thick and that I want it to be an ellipse shape tube that tapers at the other end. Later on I will be cutting wedges out of the tube, bending and soldering to make segments for my project.

I thought I would ask on here so that I can go into uni tomorrow and get on and finish my project. But I don't know if I can make myself clear in words. 😡 I've made a swaged ellipse tube before (we didn't check dimensions just got it looking right) but it was all one width and we stick soldered them together. I'll wait I think and speak to a tutor tomorrow. But thank you for looking at my question.😊

[Vanessa]

Rereading what you have said ... Yes inner dimension would be about that on the smaller end so how do I curve it in a swage block when the other end is much bigger without marking the metal??

[trialuser]

Good question, wish I knew the correct way, I'd be interested to hear how it should be done.
I'd probably try and fudge it using round pliers, sandbag or wood block.
I have had no proper training though, school of youtube!
I don't think it will be simple however you approach it. :)
If you make it out of paper first it may give you an idea of what you are up against.

[CJ57]

I think I would probably describe it as a cone with the end cut off and I would have tried making it in one piece and forming it around a fine triblet. The dimension at the narrow end will make it difficult though. Swathe blocks aren't really ideal for making a taper. I will be interested to hear what your tutor suggests. Good luck :)

[trialuser]

I think I would probably describe it as a cone with the end cut off .....
Well, I was going to write' truncated cone' but I decided it sounded a bit poncey :)

[CJ57]

Well, I was going to write' truncated cone' but I decided it sounded a bit poncey :)
I find it really difficult to describe things, Poncey is good:) it's also really hard to describe how you'd do something, I'm more of a show than tell!

[Vanessa]

Thanks both... I will be finding out today. It all works in paper but I tried yesterday with metal and discovered problems... Problems are good so long as there is a solution and having problems with construction gives me something to write about ... I'll let you know what he suggests. Thanks both 😊

[Tabby66]

Hi Vanessa,

I shall be interested to hear the solution too!! As you've identified, if you use a swage block you are going to mark the metal as it gets wider.

I think that Caroline's and trial user's suggestions of triblet and sandbag would work and a combination of the two would probably be best. The only alternative I can think of is to either make a purpose made forming block of your own, I've done this out of a lump of fine grained wood, for doming larger ovals, alternatively, making the shape and forming it in a lead cake.

Good luck!!

[Goldsmith]

If you have access to a lathe perhaps you could turn a spit to suit the job. Or have you thought about making your insect's body in two halves?

James

[trialuser]

What's a spit please James?
Google is just making me hungry with pictures of hog roasts!
I think she is intending to make it in two halves.

[Dennis]

Vanessa has probably changed her approach by now, but at the bottom of her problem is the fact that her metal is far too thick to form in the way she has tried to do it.

She would have more success with a thin walled tube, made by her, or ready made, using a collet plate. Dennis.

[Goldsmith]

What's a spit please James?
Google is just making me hungry with pictures of hog roasts!
I think she is intending to make it in two halves.

It's an old workshop term for a length of rod for shaping metals or winding jump rings on. As an apprentice I had to file brass rods into oval spits for winding oval wire links on, I still have them in my tool collection.

[trialuser]

Cheers James :)

[Vanessa]

Thank you. I discussed my issues with my tutor and he looked at it said it had a good shape already. We put it through the swage block again to try and improve the shape (it was slightly bent) We then hammer the edges with a rawhide mallet on a steel block to tidy up one of the edges. I then sanded it so that the edges met and soldered it.. Next challenge is to cut segments into the tube bend and solder again .... 😃

[Goldsmith]

Any chance of adding photos Vanessa, so we can see what you are making.

James

[Vanessa]

Its all in bits still at the mo... But I'll upload some pics in a bit if my phone allows! 😊

[Vanessa]

Ok I cant see how I upload my photos to this via tapatalk... Anyone know how?

[Vanessa]

Ok so here it is all in bits I hope this works

[Vanessa]

Hmm it auto cropped the image - at the top of the image is the top plate with the mouth cut out and eyes roughly placed in position ill try take another photo. But anyway the swaged tube is the tail looking large at the moment but I have a bit to cut off and slits to cut so that I can create segments. There will be another attachment to the tail as well that I will be working on tomorrow. Then I'll be soldering and threading through steel for the legs and additional bits to finish. Hoping to finish by Friday :) his body will be copper plated and dipped to turn him a silvery colour. :)

[Vanessa]

The top plate ... Any suggestions re the eyes. There is a hole drilled through for the pupils after soldering the domes I then popped them in the pickle then rinsed. As the day wore on I noticed a crusty formation around the drilled points washed them again took them home (forgot to look until today) and noticed a crusty formation again so I submerged them in bicarb of soda and then rinsed and dried them... But still thus crusty stuff keeps forming and has turned the metal blue black which rubs off. But I know its probably acid leaking out... How do I neutralise it? I though bicarb of soda would work.

[CJ57]

It's pickle still leaking out, you could boil it in clean water and then I sometimes put it on a radiator or turn upside down on paper towel. You should be able to draw it out from such a small item. It's not really too much to worry about if it's safety pickle other than the discolouration which you can rub off

[Vanessa]

Ok great will try that then. I knew there was a solution but I felt a little panicked by it too I must admit! 😊

[Dennis]

The trouble with a one hole bead Vanessa, is that there is not enough circulation to let out the pickle. It might eventually work if you boil it in soda soluion for a few minutes, and then boil in plain water. A quicker way is to drill right through so that there are two holes to allow a better flow.

As for eyes, an easy option is to glue in mirror backed faceted stones, with clear five minute epoxi. That is effective without requiring much thickness of metal and the seats can be made to fit them with just a round burr turned by hand in a pin vice.

They come in various colours, but red or clear might be appropriate. AE Ward have some, but you would probably have to phone them. They are very cheap.

An alternative is to glue in reversed stones of your choice, so that the culets show as spikes. This gives a more sci-fi look.

Dennis.

[Vanessa]

Yeah I'd like to do that but we're not allowed to use glue at all although i know jewellers do use it and for this project we are limited to certain skills. The addition of stones for the eyes would be fab but wont be marked as its not in the skills set we are being assessed on so I'll save my stones for a later project.


He's not quite scifi but more of a singing insect his body will look like a musical instrument. inspired by a cicada. Fir when I need stones I'll note them though for my future projects 😊


I think the spheres are too small now for me to drill another hole into them. I've boiled the eyes and have them drying on a paper towel now. I'll reassess them in the morning. I'll be soldering them to the top plate as well so ill have to think about how I clean then up after....! 😊 thanks Dennis


V

[Wallace]

dry them near a heat source to help the evaporation :)

good luck with your assessment

[Vanessa]

Thanks Wallace ... I'll do that :)

[Vanessa]

Thanks everyone fir taking the time to look at my original query and offer your advice ... I'm sure I'll be back on here to ask further daft questions again ... I know I have tutors to ask these q's to but my mind is constantly thinking and I only have my tutors around on a Tuesday Thursday and Friday so I come to you guys for extra guidance and opinions and I really appreciate it. Its frustrating though that I am only in my first term and haven't yet learnt the skills sometimes mentioned or that we are limited to a certain skills set as I'd like to do more like set stones for the eyes but I appreciate all your advice. Thanks again. 😊 I hope to photograph my finished insect once assessed 😊 there's such a lot to learn and despite some frustrations along the way in loving it .... I know I'm at uni and perhaps things are different but my old job I couldn't wait for 2.30 to come around so I could shoot off as I mostly spent the day doing not a lot but now I am in for 9 or 9.30am leave at 8 pm and never regret the hours I put in and I never watch I'm just too busy! I love it right now ... 😊

[Vanessa]

*never clock watch!

[Goldsmith]

I is great fun creating from metals Vanessa, although I cannot picture in my mind the final design of your insect. One of the insects I liked making was a dragonfly, which I used on many jobs, but my insects were not made as jewellery, more as table ornaments or decoration on larger pieces that had flowers as decoration.
I look forward to seeing your finished insect.

James

[Vanessa]

Ha ha this is a sculptural insect and an abstract one. He's based on an African oud and inspired by the cicada and he will be conducting his orchestra. I've called him the singing insect. 😊 I also look forward to seeing him 😃

[Vanessa]

I swaged and shaped my tube... I had to remake the tube and I made the top (smaller) end bigger and looks great... Will add photo of tail ...

[Vanessa]

It needs buffing but am happy with the shape and curve 😊 thanks for your advice everyone...

[Vanessa]

Hello sadly my insect sustained an injury at the last minute and the repair I was advised to make I hate and i won't go into that, as a result I was unable to complete my insect to how I wanted so the pics I have for you is him pre injury and prefinished. I hate him so much now I've not taken any finished pics of him at all. Maybe one day I will remake him maybe not... But anyway bear with me and I'll upload the pics.

[Vanessa]

My drawing is how I envisaged him ... First time doing presentation drawing... Or any real drawing... He's my singing insect inspired by the cicada. Like many on my course I've not made anything 3d or so big before.

[caroleallen]

Aww that's a shame. He was looking so promising too.

[Vanessa]

Thanks I was gutted when the damage occurred... I put him in the ultrasonic after some rigorous polishing... Lesson learnt! I am tempted to try and remake him just to prove to myself that I can complete a project...! 😊

[Dennis]

Never never give up Vanessa. It's only metal and it cant fight back. So it will take a little longer- so what?

Oh and tell us what went wrong, so that we don't do the same. Regards, Dennis.

[Tabby66]

Oh Vanessa, how disappointing for you :( .....the most important thing is to make sure you learn from what went wrong, it may feel a bit tough at the moment, but do remake him, he's such a great design and when you remake him every stage will be easier and you will have learnt from doing him the first time, your finished result will be well worth the effort.

If you can bear it, take some piccies for yourself.....they will help your future learning and one day they won't seem so bad....xx

[Vanessa]

Thanks Dennis I wont 😊. I think I over filed the bottom of him to get a nice shape then put him in the ultrasonic and it burned a hole in him - I don't really understand no one has been able to explain. Sigh. I made a cap and bifold rivet to cover the hole but it was a hideous repair 😞. I am devastated it happened I'd made a space for him in the display cabinet at home and everything sigh. I'll post a pic of the hole the ultrasonic made I don't have a pic of the repair.

[Vanessa]

Hole in the bottom of my insect.

[Vanessa]

Thanks Tabby. I feel a bit silly most of the group are younger than me and I was the one trying hard not to let the tears flow... I was exhausted I'd been working from 8am to 8pm without break and then 9.30 to 1.30 almost every day to get him and all the drawings finished and then my reward was the damage that occurred. 😢 but I think I was exhausted... I know I was. I enjoyed the hours I put in I loved working on my project but hate the end result. I really wanted a merit or even a distinction but I think I will be lucky for a pass. My next project will be different. Its wax carving next I think- I've never worked in wax before so I don't have expectations of greatness ha ha

[susieq]

Vanessa, I love love your insect design. Can't believe it's the first time you've done a presentation drawing btw. I hope once you get over the disappointment you decide to remake him - he really deserves to be made to your original design (or perhaps a baby sister for him?) and you were doing so well. Can't believe how many new skills you have learned in such a short time. Try not to be too disheartened - and like Tabby says, do take pictures.

Looking forward very much to seeing your next project come to life.

Susie

[enigma]

Oh Vanessa what a shame :(
Im sure stuff like this happens to all of us though, you aren't alone.
Would it not be possible to solder a piece of sheet over the hole and file it to match?

[Dennis]

Hole in the bottom of my insect.

My reading is that the copper was already excessively thin, due to the doming process and that the metal disintegrated under the ultrasonic forces.

It would be easy enough to repair by sweating on a domed disk or oval, unless the thinness is so extensive that the remainder buckles when heated. Dennis.

[Vanessa]

Hi Dennis... Well when I bring him home I'm going to try and remove the thin metal and solder on a cap if possible, but it might be a lost cause. I might just remake him in the future with all the knowledge I have learnt... Perhaps over the summer, trying to remake him over the Xmas holiday with all the visitors I'm expecting isn't going to work and the new project has begun at uni... That's a separate thread! But I cant believe I am considering remaking him because Thursday last week I was devastated with the monstrosity I had created and swore he'd be ceremoniously chucked in the metal skip! Vx

[Vanessa]

Thought I would share my ecstatic news... I got a high merit for the entire module which includes the insect (high merit awarded) and the ring and shapes (distinction awarded) and drawing and design (merit)! I cant believe it and I've been asked to keep working on him! I very nearly fell off my chair when I was told this morning. My tutor was surprised when I told him I was convinced I'd failed! 😃 😊 it's just sinking in....!

[Moon Willow]

I don't care who you are you should aways look for positives in your work and leave the negatives for everyone else.

Well done Vannessa

Carlton

[CJ57]

Well done Vanessa :) don't throw it way, I thought the construction process was amazing. You will eventually find a use for it or the part that you like and it may even turn into something better. We all have trays of bits we saw as failures and I recently used a piece 20 years later! I call it serendipity :)

[Vanessa]

Thanks both. 😊 oh I'm not going to throw him away now, I'm going to attempt to either fix or remake him over the year 😊 😊