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Goldsmith
01-11-2014, 11:54 AM
I started this thread rather than hi jacking Nick's thread about collets. Caroline asked what size press I have, well I use the smallest one as it is mounted on my bench to the right of my working area.

The photo shows some of the punches I have made over the years to fit the arbor press, they were mostly used when shaping small flower parts, spheres and pendant easter egg halves. I also have another piece of kit which fits it for blanking out discs, this also fits my fly press.
This is the arbor press I bought from Warco, I bought the No 1 size, which was under £50 when I bought mine and is £66 now, but if it is only for jewellery pieces the size 0 is a decent press; http://www.warco.co.uk/sheet-metal-fabrication-machinery-metalwork/90-arbor-press.html

I also make small dies in brass blocks and press tiny decorative items like the leaf groups shown below using a flat fitting in the press.

6864686768666865

James

Goldsmith
01-11-2014, 12:22 PM
I also have another useful tool for adding to a press of any type, it is called a Hunton Bolster Outfit, this is not cheap but if you want to cut hundreds of shapes they pay for themselves quickly, I have cutting dies that fit this tool so that I can cut discs up to 50mm. diameter without any distortion. Earlier on in my career I made British and foreign regalia and badges and needed many sizes of discs for badge backs.
This is the Hunton system; http://www.hartleige.com/product/flypress-bolster-outfits-and-tooling

James

CJ57
01-11-2014, 01:00 PM
Thanks for that James, very helpful. The problem I would see for me would be making the punches. Oh the possibilities though. Would my understanding be right that it could be used as a more mechanical form of repousse work? I did a bit of repousse many years ago and really enjoyed the process but never got round to buying the necessary equipment.
So many questions! How would one go about making the brass dies?

camalidesign
01-11-2014, 02:28 PM
This post comes so timely for me! I have been toying wiht the idea of getting a quicker way of cutting some small shapes that I need lots of for a ring that sells really well, especially with the Xmas trade coming up. I was considering having the shapes laser cut, but the other option is to die cut of course. I have been wanting to try/get a press for ages was wondering how well these small cheap ones compare for e.g. the blanking presses you can get from jewellery supplies companies for hundreds of pounds as opposed to £60-ish.

So James, how do you get your dies cut, or do you make them yourself too? This is where I think I might fall down, but I guess there must be someone out there who can cut them for me. I want to cut a small heart shape that is about 6-7mm in each direction, from 0.7 or 0.8mm sterling, 9 and 18ct gold sheet. So I guess I need a (blanking?) die cut for doing this, but then would the little arbour press be a good tool for doing this? Any restrictions on thickness of metal to punch through? Smallest sizes possible to cut etc.?

I like the idea of doing it myself and not be reliant on a third party when you need them quickly etc.

I think the bolster outfit would also be a good thing, as you say when you need to cut a lot of these they will pay for themselves. There are also other shapes I could really do with die cutting for increased speed in making certain ranges. I would again have to find someone to cut the round dies to use in a bolster.

Would really appreciate feedback on this! Should I go this way, or should I consider laser cutting?.... Also, are these arbour presses any good for using to make freeform hollow shapes, or does that really require a hydraulic press?

Carin

Goldsmith
01-11-2014, 03:10 PM
Carin, you may find a fly press less work for blanking out .8mm. thick items, it really depends on your arm strength with an arbor press. Check out these previous postings on another thread; http://www.cooksongold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3027

Also check out the "pancake dies" videos on youtube.

James

Nick martin
01-11-2014, 05:21 PM
James,

The brass rod photo that you posted on this thread thats egg shaped, am I correct in thinking that this could easily be shaped using a high speed lathe?

As per previous comments, the struggle for me would also be in shaping the brass rods. I guess that if you were using such a system for bezels, then you'd potentially need several different sized marquise shaped ones, pear shaped ones and so on so that you could utilise several sizes of stone right?

Not sure if you're in the market for such things, but is shaping these rods potentially something you'd be willing to undertake as work ( I.E. paid to do? )

Fascinating subject!

Nick

Goldsmith
01-11-2014, 06:02 PM
James,

The brass rod photo that you posted on this thread thats egg shaped, am I correct in thinking that this could easily be shaped using a high speed lathe?

As per previous comments, the struggle for me would also be in shaping the brass rods. I guess that if you were using such a system for bezels, then you'd potentially need several different sized marquise shaped ones, pear shaped ones and so on so that you could utilise several sizes of stone right?

Not sure if you're in the market for such things, but is shaping these rods potentially something you'd be willing to undertake as work ( I.E. paid to do? )

Fascinating subject!

Nick

Yes Nick, I made the brass rod tools on a lathe, but I don't take on any new customers work these days as I am retired. I only do a little work for old customers.
If you have the space, a lathe is another very useful tool to have.

James

camalidesign
02-11-2014, 10:44 AM
Thanks James. I guess you are right, a fly press might be better, although they do scare me a bit! :)

Pancake dies, yes those are the ones! I have seen them in action online (and actually Carole showed me at her workshop once, how to use one with a flatting press which was easy enough) and there are people out there who can make them for you too, so that's good. You can even use them in a bench vise if you haven't got a press apparently, although I have never tried. I might get a couple of shapes made and give that a try, see how easy (or not!) that is to do. Then consider a press, perhaps go and try someone's press to see what it's like to do what I intend to do, 0.8mm gold sheet is quite thick I think for cutting with a pancake die? Especially a small 6-7mm shape.

I have previously looked at getting a hydraulic press because I would also like to do some freeform "puffed shapes" but that is a larger investment, been looking at the Potters USA ones... And as someone said, it's not really that useful for cutting lots of little shapes with since each cut will take a while, instead of being quick like with a press or arbour. Actually James, does a flypress work to do this kind of work, with a die, container and polyurethane pushers etc.?

The search goes on! :) I will probably start a thread about laser cutting too, as that might be a short term option for now, with Christmas coming up...

Carin

camalidesign
02-11-2014, 11:14 AM
This is the arbor press I bought from Warco, I bought the No 1 size, which was under £50 when I bought mine and is £66 now, but if it is only for jewellery pieces the size 0 is a decent press; http://www.warco.co.uk/sheet-metal-fabrication-machinery-metalwork/90-arbor-press.html


Just in case anyone wants to get one of these arbor presses, Axminster Tools have them for less; the 0.5 tonne http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-arbor-press-ap0 for £34 inc VAT and the 1 tonne http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-arbor-press-ap1 for only £48 inc VAT. No idea if they are any good, but they have good reviews...

Carin

Goldsmith
02-11-2014, 11:38 AM
Carin, once the fly press is set up with the punch and die, they are very quick and easy to use, no arm strength required as the swing arm and weight balls give the power, when blanking out from flat sheet it takes only a few seconds to cut each piece from the sheet. I have no experience of hydraulic presses but I am sure that many of their tools can also be used in a fly press. If possible try and go to a Tool show and see some demos, I am not sure about your area but we ahve a few held each year around London, I actually bought a second hand Norton No5 fly press for £110 from someone at a model engineering show held at Sandown Racecourse some years ago, sadly I sold it 3 years ago when I stopped working. But I think if you invested in one of the Warco arbor presses you will find it useful for many jobs and at not too much outlay. One of the jobs I use my arbor press for is when shaping leaves I press the central vein in by using my arbor press and the tool on the far left of my photo of press tools, a tool that I made from an old chisel.

James

caroleallen
02-11-2014, 01:33 PM
If you want to have a go with my RT blanking system, you're very welcome.

camalidesign
02-11-2014, 02:21 PM
Thanks James, I think once I get around to doing this the fly-press might be the way to go for me, if I can pick up a second hand one it should be less money than a hydraulic press and if it can be used for silhouette forming as well as pancake die cutting then that would be the thing for me, scary or not! Will need to go and get some proper instruction methinks! :)

Thanks for the offer, Carole! :) I think if I go down that route as a cheaper interim I might go for a cheaper arbor press, but get a 1 or 2 tonne one. Just needs to get a flat base on it and I guess a flat pressing "top", should be able to get someone local to make them to fit...

Carin

ps_bond
02-11-2014, 02:41 PM
I have a 2T arbor press from when Axminster still carried that size; I've now got a manual 20T hydraulic press and I've used flypresses quite a lot (and power hammers, but I'm not convinced I need one except maybe for working down large mokume billets).

Flypresses are very, very quick to use; not setting them up with the balls at head height is useful. They aren't subtle, they're a quick impact and they're very inexpensive (look on EBay, for example).
Manual hydraulic presses are slow - nice and controllable, but slow. Powered ones are faster and need more care in use; given the choice, I'd probably pick a 50T powered over a power hammer for forging though.
Arbor presses are great to use (also can be handy for installing bearings and the likes), reliant upon hand power and need to be bolted down securely or you won't get the leverage.

allyclaret
09-11-2014, 09:34 AM
I have had a fly press and arbour sat in my shed for four years now - ebay purchases. I knew that the would come in useful one day but never got round to working out what to do with them. Thanks James, you've inspired me to go and get some tools made!

ps_bond
09-11-2014, 09:38 AM
I saw this the other day - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM7enAvz6YQ - Kevin Potter demonstrating different ways of using pancake dies. While hammering on the arbor press works, I'd not be happy about doing that to mine.

allyclaret
09-11-2014, 10:52 AM
Youch! The poor arbor press!!

caroleallen
09-11-2014, 01:27 PM
A flatting press works just as well and is a really useful piece of kit. Mine is in daily use for .... well flatting things really! Another thing that I'd be lost without.

Dennis
09-11-2014, 01:50 PM
Well, if you remove the reducing ring ( I call it the carousel) from the bottom of an upright ring stretcher and substitute a steel block, you will have a useful flatting press.
Dennis.

caroleallen
09-11-2014, 03:00 PM
Indeed Dennis, but you don't get the very satisfying thump!

Tabby66
09-11-2014, 10:28 PM
I'm assuming that you mean something similar to this Carole?? https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/planishing-presshammer?code=P6540 .....I couldn't survive without mine!!

caroleallen
09-11-2014, 10:45 PM
Yes, that's the one. I see you can get an Indian one now which is much cheaper.

Tabby66
10-11-2014, 07:56 AM
Yes, that's the one. I see you can get an Indian one now which is much cheaper.

Yes, I noticed that, not sure how they compare but significantly cheaper!!

allyclaret
10-11-2014, 04:42 PM
Can you use the flattener to flatten out bangles Carole?

caroleallen
10-11-2014, 05:19 PM
Yes you can Ally. I use mine a lot for just that purpose. I have to ensure bangles are completely flat before I can engrave them on my machine.

allyclaret
10-11-2014, 09:07 PM
Super, thanks Carole. I've been after one of these for aaaages! And an engraving machine, but I suspect that I better start another thread for that!

tzam
30-01-2015, 12:29 PM
Hello James,
When using the brass small Easter egg punch in your arbor press did you use contained urethane resting on the baseplate to form the metal around the punch? I can understand how the punch itself can be made on a lathe but am a little puzzled how - without using urethane - I would go about making the female form to precisely match the male punch.
Many thanks.
Ramsay

Goldsmith
30-01-2015, 01:08 PM
Hello James,
When using the brass small Easter egg punch in your arbor press did you use contained urethane resting on the baseplate to form the metal around the punch? I can understand how the punch itself can be made on a lathe but am a little puzzled how - without using urethane - I would go about making the female form to precisely match the male punch.
Many thanks.
Ramsay

I used a lead block as the female forms when using those punches in my arbor press.

7298

James

Tabby66
31-01-2015, 02:22 AM
This may be a really dumb question James, but here goes.......is it best to preform the lead block with the punch before putting the silver between punch and lead block, or do you just go for it with the press and metal in place. Also do you buff the side of the formed shape that has been in contact with the lead block to ensure that there are no traces of lead present, before going onto any further work with the formed piece??

Many thanks,
Jill (aka Tabby)

Goldsmith
31-01-2015, 11:56 AM
This may be a really dumb question James, but here goes.......is it best to preform the lead block with the punch before putting the silver between punch and lead block, or do you just go for it with the press and metal in place. Also do you buff the side of the formed shape that has been in contact with the lead block to ensure that there are no traces of lead present, before going onto any further work with the formed piece??

Many thanks,
Jill (aka Tabby)

Yes Jill I preform the lead block with the punch, there are limits to the ability of pressing this way though. Always clean off the surface that touches the lead before using any heat treatments, if you anneal without cleaning you may get lead eating into the metal. Please remember that when I was taught these processes there were no urethane compounds or other modern methods available which may be better than lead blocks, but I do not have any knowledge of these compounds so they may be much better than lead. So many new ideas, materials and machines these days that sometimes I feel that I am living in the dark ages, although my knowledge of how my trade is these days is a bit depressing, many hand skills are being lost as machinery is taking over.

James

Tabby66
31-01-2015, 05:38 PM
Thanks James, that's really helpful.

tzam
02-02-2015, 03:06 PM
Hello James
Thank you for your response to my question about how you created the female form to match the brass punch shown in one of your photos. I decided to try this for myself and not having suitable urethane I used a pure lead block and a 2 ton arbor press modified to hold various dapping punches. I wanted to form 1.5" diameter half spheres. I did find that I needed to use a hammer and increasingly large dapping punches to create a suitably sized female form in the lead for the 1.5" dapping punch. This was pretty straightforward but as the size of the punch increased I noticed that the lead began to "bulge" around the circumference of the spherical hole as I was preparing the cavity. I suppose that could have been avoided if I had drilled out some of the lead before hand and I think I'll do that in future. I expect you may have had to do something similar when making the cavity for the brass punch. In any event, the result were two very neat half spheres, each 1.5" in diameter. My first couple of efforts failed because the surplus copper wrinkled up and formed corners on the formed sphere. When I pierced the copper to discs slightly over 1.5" diameter and then did the forming in the press all was well. I wonder if you had to do something similar prior to forming those beautiful enamelled bells shown in another one of your pics.
This has been quite a useful and interesting experiment for me James and I really appreciate your sharing your vast experience here.
Ramsay