Websites - how to look professional cheaply [Archive] - Cooksongold Jewellery Making Supplies Forum | Jewellery Making Forums

crystal-rings

30-08-2009, 10:22 AM

I am looking to build a website and have been struggling with a mrsite-site now for some time. Should I have spent a bit more money and got someone to do it for me? I have no technical knowhow and it is taking up a lot of time that I don't have. A friend also suggested that perhaps if I got in touch with a local college that a student might help me out for the credos of doing it. Any advice on that anyone? in fact, any pointers at all would be very much appreciated!!

Emerald

30-08-2009, 11:08 AM

Hi Crystal,

I bought a Mr site box and i have to say up until know i have had no problems at all, i bought the box so i could have the instruction book to hand and this has been invaluable, perservere i am sure you will mange to get a great site, i to have no experience of computers.:)

mizgeorge

30-08-2009, 11:32 AM

I'm happy with my Mr Site - mainly because it's quick and easy to work with and I'd rather spend my time making stuff than writing code!

My biggest recommendation is to start by keeping it very simple. You can add bells and whistles later on, but getting a nice crisp basic design goes a very long way.

The danger with getting somebody else to do it for you is that you are then dependent on them every time you want to make changes. At least with a diy package like Mr Site, you can remain in control of everything.

If there's anything specific you're having trouble with, why not post here - there are quite a few of us using the package who could probably help. :)

The Bijou Dragon

30-08-2009, 01:17 PM

mizgeorge

30-08-2009, 01:25 PM

I can highly recommend CubeCart for which you can purchase (or even find free) skins.

IMHO Mr Site's websites are awful, for some reason they are always juddery and just don't seem to work very well... but that's just my opinion, I really hate lovely jewellery on bad websites!

Now that doesn't sound very much like a humble opinion!

I feel quite the opposite. I have a very strong dislike of awful jewellery on great websites. It's just such a disappointment. I suspect many of the best jewellery designers have little time or inclination to be website experts as well. Nor do they necessarily have the resources to get someone else to do it for them, lovely though it would be.

Each to their own I suppose :)

Emerald

30-08-2009, 02:40 PM

mizgeorge

30-08-2009, 03:06 PM

Jo, your site looks great :) Exactly what I mean about crisp, clear and attractive. Look forward to seeing the tins too!

Emerald

30-08-2009, 04:36 PM

ah, thanks George it was sites like yours that made me choose Mr Site. My friend makes the tins and has been away for 4 weeks so hopefully they will be on it the next few days:)

Di Sandland

30-08-2009, 04:37 PM

Jo, your site is lovely. Crystal, I suggest you persevere with Mr Site. I don't have it but that's only because my webhost had an offer on at the right time!

My understanding is that Mr Site is everything you need in the one box, including one year's hosting. How brilliant is that! Even if you changed package, most of the off-the-shelf type sites use basically the same process to get your site put together, all that's different are the templates.

Also, as George said, so many of the guys on here use Mr Site that you have a ready made resource/help desk.

Post your particular problems with it on the board here and let the guys help you out.

geti-titanium

30-08-2009, 05:17 PM

Websites are a situation where a little bit of knowledge and experimentation can get you a long way and save you a fortune by not having to pay somebody else to do it for you.

I use two types of software for my sites, one is a free content management system open source software called 'Joomla CMS' which I use for my main Titanium rings trade site www.geti.cc (http://www.geti.cc) , and the second is licenced software from Cactushop for my public Titanium rings site www.fatcowdesigns.com (http://www.fatcowdesigns.com)

My first ever site I got through a grant from Business link and cost me £250 the second also I had a grant for and it cost me £2,500, but neither of them gave me total control over it so I thought 'stuff this' I'll learn how to do it myself. now I have my own dedicated server and build websites for my customers if they want me to.

The freedom it gives me by not having to rely on other people was well worth the the effort of working long hours into the night for.

Fiona

30-08-2009, 05:39 PM

My site is a Web eden site.. very easy to set up and very easy to add to...

geti-titanium

30-08-2009, 09:12 PM

The common battle between web designers and website marketers is design versus optimisation. Minimalistic websites rarely do well on google for the simple fact that there is nothing on it for google to find - no text equals poor rankings.

It is a fine balancing act to make a website appealing and search engine friendly and unfortunately the two do not go hand in hand.

CyberPaddy66

31-08-2009, 02:08 PM

I can't get my dislike of MrSite websites to fade, the way the text and graphics tear as you scroll just puts me right off them I close the window wether I'm interested in the site or not.

I've used everything from Frontpage, through Publisher and coffeecup to Dreamweaver for making websites and Dreamweaver wins it hands down but for an e-commerce site Cubecart is by far the easiest to tweek and make look good (there are free skins and lots of help on the forums) and you can host it almost anywhere but EUKhost is a really good company (better than Fasthosts!) to deal with.

Di Sandland

31-08-2009, 02:14 PM

... EUKhost is a really good company (better than Fasthosts!) to deal with.

I can't comment on the hosting stuff, Mr Dragon, other than to say that, after 1&1, Fasthosts are pure pleasure!

mizgeorge

31-08-2009, 02:24 PM

I can't get my dislike of MrSite websites to fade, the way the text and graphics tear as you scroll just puts me right off them I close the window wether I'm interested in the site or not.

Sounds more like a problem with your browser (or monitor) than the sites? I've never heard of this happening before, and it certainly doesn't do this for me in either Firefox or Chrome. I've also seen a lot of heavily customised sites that are completely unrecognisable as having been created in Mr Site, so how do you know?

Shame. You're probably missing out on some nice stuff ;)

CyberPaddy66

31-08-2009, 02:30 PM

Sounds more like a problem with your browser (or monitor) than the sites?

Happens on any PC I've sat in front of no matter what type of monitor I use either, and you can tell the MrSite sites by the little line of text that is usually at the bottom of the page but basically any that have tearing text or pictures usually are MrSite sites.

Coming from many years as a computer technician and networking engineer who has built and installed hundreds of PC's with different equipment I've yet to find a MrSite site that doesn't cause problems.

I'm not saying that your or any other site looks bad I just can't get on with the site mechanics not the content.

CyberPaddy66

31-08-2009, 02:38 PM

I have a very powerful PC, quad core with top of the range nvidia sli geforce gaming cards and I have never seen a single bit of screen tearing viewing any website built with MR Site in both Microsoft IE and Firefox.

Screen tearing is a vertical sync problem caused by either an incorrect refresh rate on your monitor or the side effects of a very substandard graphics card with insufficient video memory.

Worth noting but any site that requires me to tweak my PC before I use it is a big no-no for me [-X ;)

mizgeorge

31-08-2009, 02:49 PM

I would just add that the Mr Site text line is easily removed (and often is by people who are bothered by it). I keep mine as I'm perfectly happy for anyone to know that's how I created my site.

Emerald

31-08-2009, 03:51 PM

I am glad nobody removed there Mr Site from there site cos then i would never have bought such a reasonably priced shop in a box and i am very happy with it and so is everyone that has viewed it since i opened four weeks ago and as i have been asking peoples opinions that have and no one has mentioned any problems i think its ok. Paddy have at look at mine and Georges and see if it happens to them :)

lesley

31-08-2009, 05:18 PM

Sorry to be a numpty but what exactly does tearing text and graphics look like?

Jo, I have had a lot of problems with my Mr Site but I've mentioned it elsewhere and I do moan about it rather a lot so I won't go into details here.:)

lesley

31-08-2009, 07:27 PM

Screen tearing is a bit hard to explain, imagine scrolling down a page and as you are doing so the text and images kind of split up horizontally, like someone is scissoring them in half.

Thanks - sounds painful.:)

lesley

31-08-2009, 07:32 PM

Actually, thinking about it, I've seen that on Etsy.

agent_44

31-08-2009, 07:58 PM

Hello

Seems this thread is deviating from the original question and turning into an argument about Mr Site.

Shoving my oar in as a professional web developer, I would say that Mr Site is a great option if you don't know what you are doing, it's easier to make a site that looks good than if you tried to build one from scratch. I would say be careful about how you display your products and make sure the small images are clearly visible and enticing - a teeny weeny image you can't see well won't draw the customer in. Pretty much all the Mr Site sites I have seen are like this - it's not good design and it is pretty much shooting yourself in the foot, as is IMO the slow loading large graphic dispay widget that it uses.

As for getting someone else to do your site for you - whihc hasn;t been discussed much, it's most certainly NOT the case that you would have to pay for every further update you would want to make. It's quite possible to have a site built for you with the provision for you to update it's content without needing to know how to write any HTML.

If you have any more questions, I'd be happy to help you if I can. If it's Mr Site related, I have never touched it but it seems there are one or two experts on the subject here I am sure will be happy to help! :)

geti-titanium

31-08-2009, 08:29 PM

I don't use MrSite either - never heard of it 'til I came on this forum. My GETi site is built from free open source CMS software called Joomla - lovely programme!

My ecommerce sites are built using Cactushop (www.fatcowdesigns.com is an example of one of my public sites).

Both are really easy to use but need a little bit of html and css knowledge to set up.

ben b

31-08-2009, 09:52 PM

.......................

caroleallen

31-08-2009, 10:11 PM

Those look good Ben, though I couldn't open your site as I didn't have the right plug in, apparently!

I had my site done professionally as at the time I wasn't aware of the packages that are available now. I wanted my images done professionally and my website designer is also a photographer. At first I had to get my designer to updated it for me every time and I also didn't have e-commerce. I then decided to pay the extra for e-commerce and can now update most of it myself though there are certain areas that he still does. I managed to get a grant towards it which really helped but it was still expensive. I'm sure it's much better though than if I'd tried to do it myself.

geti-titanium

31-08-2009, 10:20 PM

It may be possible to get a grant towards a website from the Business Link people in your area depending on what funding is available and if you qualify.

It's definitely worth asking. In the old days my first website came from a grant for 80% and the second I got 50% towards it - certainly better than a kick in the nuts!

ben b

31-08-2009, 10:37 PM

.............................

agent_44

01-09-2009, 01:11 AM

The thing about video is, there are so many formats, that it's 99.9% likely that a fair chunk of your audience are going to have to download something to make it play, no matter what format you use. I'd suggest that some good clear images of your pieces would be a lot more informative for the customers, and they'd be able to see them straight away.

Di Sandland

01-09-2009, 01:35 PM

Ben, thanks for that. I found it really interesting. And, just to make you feel better, I found the Fasthosts package a pain to use as well - until I got used to it.

EmmaRose

02-09-2009, 08:44 AM

Websites are a steep learning curve. And very expensive to get someone else to do (a good one is £1000 plus). I would say don't use anything straight out of the box, customise as much as you can, templates look too generic and samey after awhile.
Em

Peaches

18-09-2009, 10:31 AM

Yola | Build a Free Website (http://www.yola.com) I use these guys, great support, very easy to build and cost effective to host!

CDW Designs

18-09-2009, 05:50 PM

I agee George but your site is lovely and clear and easy to follow and when you have wonderful jewellery like that you dont need much more. Mr Site is very easy to follow if you are interested this is mine Trinkets and Tins - Silver Jewellery & Gift Tins (http://www.trinketsandtins.co.uk) i need to work on a banner now
and as George says if you need help just shout:~:

Your website looks great, clear and easy to navigate. I love it. I shall try myself in due course. Have a good Coffee Get together on 23 September!!
Christine:dance:

scooch

05-10-2009, 02:44 PM

Hello,
I was wondering Emerald and Mizgeorge - what version of MrSite do you use? And did you register the Domain name through them or do it yourself?

thanks in advance !
Scooch.

Emerald

05-10-2009, 03:15 PM

Hello,
I was wondering Emerald and Mizgeorge - what version of MrSite do you use? And did you register the Domain name through them or do it yourself?

thanks in advance !
Scooch.

Hi Scooch i got version 2 in the box cos i wanted the manual which has proved invaluable and yes i registered with them very simple, i know some people have had lots of problems but i and George have always been very happy with ours if you but it on Amazon its about £20-£25.

amazingbabe

05-10-2009, 03:22 PM

:Y::Y:I too have had no problems whatsoever with mrsite and the fact that it does not cost an arm and a leg is what makes it even better, easy to use etc etc....... I think my site is ok anyway and i have never had any complaints about it being shaky etc:)

mizgeorge

05-10-2009, 03:35 PM

I'm a big fan of Mr Site :)

It's not the best there is, but it's one of the easiest. It has its occasional hiccups (funnily enough, I think more often with the pro version than the regular), but it serves my needs brilliantly.

I'm perfectly capable of writing my own, but as I've said before I'd rather spend time making stuff than writing code, and I'm too lazy about SEO for it to be worth my while spending a fortune on what is essentially a gallery.

Don't buy direct from Mr Site though - you can usually find it far cheaper on Amazon or Ebay.

Ominicci

05-10-2009, 06:48 PM

There is also a MrSite Forum now for people to help each other and ask the tech team any questions. I asked why I couldn't see the names of the people who had signed up to the mailing list only their e-mail addresses, and within hours they had changed the programming so that you can now see the names too!!!!

df_glass

17-10-2009, 02:30 PM

My lampwork site is a freewebs template, the jewellery is frewebs html. Both work just fine :)
The domains were bought seperately and are redirected to freewebs to lose the long website name you have to use for free sites.

geti-titanium

17-10-2009, 02:37 PM

My lampwork site is a freewebs template

Give us a look-see :~:

Boo

17-10-2009, 04:15 PM

I'm afraid, for me, Google ads across the top of a web page is a bit of a turn off. Do you really want to be advertising someone else's Pandora beads and handmade glass beads right at the top of your own site before they've seen your own lovely work?

AniccaJewellery

18-10-2009, 01:08 PM

I use Shopify which was easy to set up and is also easy to update.

just to throw a different name in the mix!

Di Sandland

18-10-2009, 04:31 PM

Hello, Anicca, from the North of the County.

lorraineflee

18-10-2009, 05:49 PM

Hi Annica, welcome from Bedfordshire
Lorraine

AniccaJewellery

19-10-2009, 07:22 AM

Hello! sorry to just join in and not introduce myself :) I am an Aussie living in Devon x

Solunar Silver Studio

19-10-2009, 07:33 AM

Hi Anicca! :~:...you really should start a thread in the Introduce Yourself section you know.... that way you will get the full forum Welcome! [[]]
Can't have people sneaking in by the back door!! [-X :-D

katrina alexander

19-10-2009, 08:45 AM

Mr Site can be difficult to get the hang ofKatrina Alexander - Home (http://katrina-alexander.com) but it is definately worth persevering. It does everything I want it to do very well and comes up in search engines too if you add the right text and metatags. I work professionally in marketing and have done lots of research on web building for companies with very large budgets. There are 1000s of companies who claim that they can build you a site but don't follow any of the necessary rules necessary to be ranked by google, or build the site properly so unless you have time to do alot of research and have around £3,500 to spend I would recommend that you try out Mr Site first - it is incredible value for money.

Good luck with it - you could always get a friend to help you if you get stuck until you get into the swing of it. Also, the help service is fantastic - rather than trawl through the help menu, just send off an email to the help desk with your query and they will answer within a day.

Boo

19-10-2009, 09:05 AM

How much does Mr Site actually cost then? I never got that far. I probably pay around £70 a year for my hosting (includes the cart system) and domains.

I decided against Mr Site for 3 reasons when I was looking at something for my own site - firstly, every site looks very similar in it - even personalised they seem to have the same layout and feel. That's also true to some extent with my own, I used one of the included templates (I use CubeCart) and whilst I modded it quite a lot, it's still recognisable. But I was going to buy a custom fancy skin for it, but the friends and family who tested it for me said they preferred my test version than the one I was going to use, so I stuck with it. It's not as elegant as I had in mind, but customers say they like its clarity and ease of use.

Secondly, every site I've seen is just slightly wider than my screen res. so I always have to scroll left to right a couple of inches to see everything - I'd prefer a page to adapt to whatever screen res is viewing it, without horizontal scrolling.

Thirdly, I really dislike how it treats photos - site owners seemingly upload whatever size of photo they have available and it re-sizes it to present the photo on the screen - and does a horrible job of that process - with nasty jaggies on smooth curves etc. I've got into the habit of copying the photos to view at the original size instead, but sometimes a 6+MP image of a small piece of jewellery doesn't flatter it. I suspect that mine would do the same, but I know what size the image pop up is (and I made it bigger than the default), so I prepare my images in advance just the right size so that I can control their appearance exactly.

mizgeorge

19-10-2009, 09:49 AM

Boo, a 'regular' rather than pro version of Mr Site costs anywhere from £15 to £35 for the first year (depending on where you buy it) including domain registration etc. Second and subsequent years are £35.

I don't know about the screen resolution thing - like most websites it's optimised to a screen width of 800 pixels - I think most PCs have at least that now.

As for the pictures, you're right. If you upload pictures that you've sized correctly it handles them really well, very much as you do with your own site. The problem is that few users understand this, nor do they have the technical skills or information to edit their photos well, and therefore upload whatever they've got, which then gets automatically resized to the best of the package's ability - which is rarely great. I think getting this side of things right is one of the hardest things most new online sellers have to do, with very mixed results IMO.

For what it does, I am more than happy with my Mr Site, and have actually used it for a couple of other websites I needed to create. The ease of use more than compensates for the small frustrations that come with it. I actually find the team there are surprisingly responsive to customer input (once you can get past the poor initial contact system), and they've certainly changed things very positively over the couple of years I've been working with it.

Boo

19-10-2009, 10:10 AM

My screen on this desktop is 800 x 600, but Mr Site pages are always slightly too wide. On my laptop and netbook with larger screens, I'm sure this wouldn't happen, but for me to work on it day in day out here, it was an absolute deal breaker. Just looking at yours, it's about 60 pixels wider than my screen - on the right I just see the starting 'A' of the 'Add to cart' buttons and the numbers of the prices are butted right to the right of the screen when I scroll right to show them.

The images thing - I wonder how easily that could be set up to be done better? It seems reasonable if it resizes from a large image, but particularly poor if the original uploaded is not that much larger, it really makes them look poor on screen. I wonder if there are any settings that would allow it to permanently re-size to the presentation size rather than just squishing the full original onto the screen? On my Cubecart I think there are various options for handling images like this, I just opted to use the 'original' size and make mine the final size I want, so it actually does nothing to them.

But as you say, that just won't be an option for most of the very users this system is most likely to interest. It just wasn't the one for me. I tried and looked at a lot before I settled on CubeCart - which suited my own skills and ideas most closely. It was a tortuous journey getting to that decision though and it's a pretty personal process - I like how it works, the next person may well not.

geti-titanium

19-10-2009, 10:20 AM

My screen on this desktop is 800 x 600,

Can you change your screen resolution to 1024 instead of 800?

Boo

19-10-2009, 11:20 AM

Probably. But I like it how it is. It is this res through choice - dictated by the size of the monitor and my eyesight. I'm certainly not going to change it to view web sites.

katrina alexander

19-10-2009, 10:50 PM

Mr Site works brilliantly for me and I think it is incredible value for money - providing you add metatags and put the right SEO into it it actually comes up in search engines much better than alot of "beautifully designed" sites that look pretty but google will never find them on SEO. Having done alot of research on "professional" and highly expensive web design and build companies (from £3,500 to £12.000+ for a site) through my work for clients in a marketing consultancy role, I would recommend using Mr Site unless you have a good budget. You can always upgrade later when you have more money to spend - for jewellery sales I think it works very well indeed.

Apologies to those who read my post earlier - if you can find it - I can't! Hence rewriting it! Hope it helps ... Katrina
Katrina Heroys - Home (http://www.katrinaheroys.co.uk)

Boo

19-10-2009, 10:55 PM

Your earlier post along the same lines is second from the top on the same page.

You can also find your own previous posts by looking at the stats in your own profile.

jetlag

20-10-2009, 12:11 PM

I've been using Mrsite since 2006 for my online shop and have recently moved away to Actinic as mrsite just had too many limitations for a really professional looking needlework shop with thousands of products. The other thing about it that really annoyed me was the generated page names (1.html, 2.html, etc). If you moved your pages around, all of your links were instantly bad and that kind of naming is terrible for SEO.

However, it is excellent for beginners and you can get your website up and running in an hour. It's £35 per year, including the domain registration and hosting.

As for the 800x600 thing, there are many many websites that are fixed width at 1000px and only about 5% of internet users have resolutions set below that. mrsite sites won't be the only ones that will be a problem for you, I'm afraid. Web designers typically don't like dynamic pages as you lose all control over how your page looks if someone scrunches it up.

Boo

20-10-2009, 12:22 PM

But web sites are supposed to be about content not layout. I reserve the right to view web pages exactly how I want - and I want my customers to feel the same way too. Accessibility seems to becoming an outmoded concern for designers and it really shouldn't be - it's a legal requirement to comply with the DDA.

I know that my own site resizes for the viewer and sometimes that might give rise to an ugly layout - but it actually works - my main concern.

If my customer - or potential customer - has vision issues or other disability concerns that dictate how they use a computer, I don't want them to be inconvenienced by my desire to keep the layout pretty. The fact that everyone else does it doesn't make it right.

I'm working on a commission now for a lady who is disabled and adapting the design to make it easier for her to wear and my attitude to accessibility is a significant factor in her returning to me many times for pieces.

jetlag

20-10-2009, 12:43 PM

Well, that's partly true. Content is what makes you buy. But layout is what makes you want to bother looking.

Put it this way, if you walked into a shop and all the products were in boxes on a single crammed shelf, the content would be there, but you wouldn't likely want to come in for a browse because the layout would be rubbish.

In a brick shop, every customer coming in will see the shop the same way. In a click shop, every customer is wearing different glasses (firefox, netscape, safari, opera, chrome, ie5, ie6, ie7) with different magnifications (800, 1024 etc) and they have to cater to the majority.

The truth of the matter is, no website is going to please 100% of people 100% of the time. It's sad, but true.

Boo

20-10-2009, 01:34 PM

You just perfectly illustrated the problem yourself - one of an incorrect attitude - designers treat web sites like brick and mortar shops - and they're not. They're so much more. Web sites are inherently flexible - but designers (spurred on by clients who don't know better, but their designer should explain this) design that flexibility out - the very feature that is of greatest value. And by flexibility, I don't just mean the ability of the page to re-size, but the way in which different software and devices can access the content.

If you want to use the analogy between on-line venues and high street shops - web sites would be like a store that automatically adjusts the shelf height to the maximum reach of each customer and your best lines would automatically be presented at eye level and aisles would adjust to the width of those of us that are broader of beam.

You can't directly equate on-line shops to real world ones - and shouldn't even try. Presentation is clearly important for very many users, but not to the exclusion of working well for everyone. Elegant web design is not just about colour schemes and imagery - it's about function and flexibility too.

amazingbabe

20-10-2009, 02:34 PM

wow interesting stuff !!!:)

jetlag

20-10-2009, 02:35 PM

Well, yes you can compare the two because retail is retail and the principles of "why people buy" are the same in both situations, but I think this discussion may be getting a little more emotive than I care for.

My point is that while it SHOULD be possible, it ISN'T possible to have a website that is all things to all people, particularly when you're talking about "web designers" who are actually jewellers or beaders or artists who are doing it themselves using someone else's software which will have inherent limitations.

I suppose if you wanted to shell out £10k for a professionally written site, you could get one that sized itself to the screen resolution of the pc it was being accessed on and new whether the user liked fixed width screens or dynamic screens and could decide how many products to show in a column based on that info or whatever. I don't even know if that's physically possible.

But, the question was "how to look professional cheaply". If you want to discuss why websites aren't all singing and dancing there are other forums for that discussion. I can direct you to several very good ones.

It's not about "web designer attitude" at all, it's about what is possible within a set budget. Web designers are artists too, and want their creations to be loved by everyone. But they won't be. Sad, hard truth.

For what it's worth, I also found it very annoying that you couldn't resize a mrsite page, but, for £35 a year, you take what you can get and it's very good at what it does (provides a cheap, reliable platform from which to launch an online business).

Kalorlo

20-10-2009, 03:50 PM

I suppose if you wanted to shell out £10k for a professionally written site, you could get one that sized itself to the screen resolution of the pc it was being accessed on and new whether the user liked fixed width screens or dynamic screens and could decide how many products to show in a column based on that info or whatever. I don't even know if that's physically possible.

What you caaaan do is have a CSS switcher at the top of your page, this would let the user choose from different 'skins' for the website, and some could be fixed-width and some not. But of course you're not very likely to have something like that in a pre-built package designed to be easy to set up. (A CSS switcher in itself is really simple, but you'd need technical knowledge to write the layouts, or else the package builders would have to create an interface to let you do that without code... and that is not simple). Most people only want to worry about creating one design for their website, not many!

I also have to scroll sideways a little on MrSite pages: I do run at 1024x768, but I like my browser window to be an inch or two less than the width of my screen. The way MrSite calls pages page1.html and so on also really irritates me when just browsing! So I think I won't go with them for creating a site. I am able to code my own, though, and am not in any particular hurry for my site to be finished. Most people don't have that luxury.

jetlag

20-10-2009, 05:57 PM

What you caaaan do is have a CSS switcher at the top of your page, this would let the user choose from different 'skins' for the website, and some could be fixed-width and some not. But of course you're not very likely to have something like that in a pre-built package designed to be easy to set up. (A CSS switcher in itself is really simple, but you'd need technical knowledge to write the layouts, or else the package builders would have to create an interface to let you do that without code... and that is not simple). Most people only want to worry about creating one design for their website, not many!

Can you? Now THAT is interesting! Sort of like they have for some forums? What a clever idea! That would definitely solve the sort of problem that Boo experiences in a neat and efficient way.

I'm guessing you'd have a drop down box with a couple of choices (one, say, optimized for 800x600 viewing) and that would change your table widths (yes, I still use tables!) and number of columns and whatnot?

Tidy!

Kalorlo

20-10-2009, 06:30 PM

Can you? Now THAT is interesting! Sort of like they have for some forums? What a clever idea! That would definitely solve the sort of problem that Boo experiences in a neat and efficient way.

I'm guessing you'd have a drop down box with a couple of choices (one, say, optimized for 800x600 viewing) and that would change your table widths (yes, I still use tables!) and number of columns and whatnot?

Tidy!

You can change layouts, yup. Though if you're using CSS you should only be using tables for actual tabulated data... Other things are controlled by divs. Have a look at CSS Zen Garden (http://www.csszengarden.com/) - that's a design site that shows the kind of things you can do if you want to. The html for the page stays exactly the same, and if you choose designs from the menu the CSS is changed. (You can also use CSS to serve lighter versions of pages to mobile phones, for example).

snow_imp

20-10-2009, 06:34 PM

You can change layouts, yup. Though if you're using CSS you should only be using tables for actual tabulated data... Other things are controlled by divs. Have a look at CSS Zen Garden (http://www.csszengarden.com/) - that's a design site that shows the kind of things you can do if you want to. The html for the page stays exactly the same, and if you choose designs from the menu the CSS is changed. (You can also use CSS to serve lighter versions of pages to mobile phones, for example).

Wow, I've heard of CSS but never seen it used in such a well shown way before. Thanks for sharing.

Boo

20-10-2009, 06:41 PM

(sorry, I started typing and got interrupted, so it refers to posts earlier in the thread.)

It doesn't even need to be that complicated many times. Something as simple as changing 'px' to '%' in style sheets goes a huge way to making web pages flexible - in this instance I do mean in a re-sizing sense.

Many of the problems with web pages that want to force the viewer to look at the page in a rigid design layout could be very easily overcome by simply not insisting on fixed dimensions and using relative ones instead. On pages I design entirely, I specify most layout elements as percentages of the page width, not absolute dimensions. Small non-important elements like padding between items and borders round photos would be specified in pixels, but column widths wouldn't.

I rarely hard specify font/size for example. **** The master font/size on the page is usually whatever the viewer has set in their browser preferences - so if they need to view 14 point bold text on a yellow background due to a visual impairment (as a friend of mine does) - then that's what they'll see. Sure, some might think that looked pretty ugly, but if it means they can see to type their order and credit card number, I really don't care. I want my visitors to be able to use the site - it looking nice for others is a secondary consideration.

**** My jewellery shop isn't perhaps as good an example of my own design policy as I'd like, as I'm using a standard cart system that I've modded as much as I can, but does have limits beyond my ability to adjust it. But it does meet with the inexpensive criteria under discussion.

Kalorlo

20-10-2009, 06:59 PM

Boo - yeah, I agree. Web design isn't print design! Pixel-perfection shouldn't be the aim.

jetlag

20-10-2009, 08:05 PM

geti-titanium

20-10-2009, 09:38 PM

Accessibility seems to becoming an outmoded concern for designers and it really shouldn't be

Accessibility is important but then it takes second place to making a sale as far as I'm concerned. If a surfer bounces off your site because they can't be bothered to scroll left and right (and they will), then that is your lost revenue, and sales are what most are aiming for with a website.

My website stats show that the most popular screen resolution at the moment is 1024 x 768 with 1280 x 1024 a very close second - 800 x 600 doesn't get a look in and websites shouldn't be built around this size anymore.

You tend to find that surfers with sight disabilities have their computers setup for their own use anyway, all it takes, with Windows at least, is to put the magnification up in the bottom right hand corner of the browser.

You need to maximise every trick in the book to get sales through a website.

geti-titanium

20-10-2009, 09:58 PM

This should throw a spanner in the works :)

Elegant web design is not just about colour schemes and imagery - it's about function and flexibility too.

Yes, also though, elegant web design to me is about websites that never get found in search engines - Elegant web designers manage to earn a living by creating beautiful, attractive websites that appeal to people who have no concept of what is needed from a website to rank highly on google - if you want a good all round performing website, ignore the designer and listen to the marketer - they usually have wildly conflicting views.

Boo

20-10-2009, 10:13 PM

800 x 600 doesn't get a look in and websites shouldn't be built around this size anymore.
In that case, you've completely missed my point. I have an 800 x 600 screen res. My choice, end of. It's not important or relevant to anyone other than me. I haven't ever said that web sites should be designed for this resolution or any other - my other machines have different screen shapes and resolutions. Just because a system has a particular screen res. doesn't mean the user keeps their browser full width - it's their prerogative to view just however they want.

I don't expect or want sites to be designed for my personal convenience, what I would prefer is that the very flexibility available to designers and inherent in web technology, isn't actually designed out. Designers have to consciously choose to cater for a particular size - if they just left well alone, pages would just adapt to whatever environment is used to browse - including my 800x600 screen. Even on my larger screens, I prefer to keep my browser narrower to keep lines of text shorter for ease of reading.

You tend to find that surfers with sight disabilities have they're computers setup for their own use anyway, all it takes, with Windows at least, is to put the magnification up in the bottom right hand corner of the browser.
There's a bit more to visual accessibility than just enlarging the page content.

You need to maximise every trick in the book to get sales through a website.
And looking after your customers and not excluding them - or making them feel excluded, is just one of them. If a potential customer 'bounces off' your site purely because of design irritations, then your site let you down - getting them to visit in the first place is the hard bit, you don't want to lose them again through something avoidable.

P.S. I said elegant design was about function and I would see search engine placement as an important function of a site.

geti-titanium

20-10-2009, 10:17 PM

I've been using Mrsite since 2006 for my online shop and have recently moved away to Actinic as mrsite

Actinic - don't get me started on Actinic now! :) I bought an Actinic licence about 5 years ago, it cost just under £1,000 - ooh yeah! lots of features - I dismissed it after about 3 months when I decided that if I was going to offer my jewellery trade customers a website building service, then this package would definitely be one to keep away from.

I got to grips with it ok but it is too complicated for a lot of people to use and adding products was really time consuming - I would have spent 5 times longer just training them to use it as it would be to build a site. :N:

Emerald

20-10-2009, 10:31 PM

You see.... i havent got the now how, time or money for a whizz bang sight and Mr site for the money does what it says on the box and if you are wanting to build a website cheaply have insufficient funds and little money cos you are spending it all on tools and materials it does the job amen x

jetlag

21-10-2009, 09:09 AM

Emerald, that is so true. It really is a very good product for the price and I think it's ideally suited to people in the jewellery trade.

Actinic - don't get me started on Actinic now! :) I bought an Actinic licence about 5 years ago, it cost just under £1,000 - ooh yeah! lots of features - I dismissed it after about 3 months when I decided that if I was going to offer my jewellery trade customers a website building service, then this package would definitely be one to keep away from.

I got to grips with it ok but it is too complicated for a lot of people to use and adding products was really time consuming - I would have spent 5 times longer just training them to use it as it would be to build a site. :N:

It's interesting you should say that because I love how easy it is to add products. I do think it's gone through quite a few changes in 5 years, though. I'm on version 9.0.5 and I can add 20 products in about 5 minutes, even using an SPP layout where each product is in it's own section.

It might help that I'm an Oracle developer so have experience in making sense of mystifying software LOL but seriously, it's super easy these days.

Actinic is definitely worth a second look...

jetlag

21-10-2009, 09:10 AM

Boo

21-10-2009, 09:15 AM

Emerald, that is so true. It really is a very good product for the price and I think it's ideally suited to people in the jewellery trade.
As with our craft, it's always a case of the best tool for the job. If Mr Site is the best tool for a particular user - and I'm not disputing its ease of use and validity at all - then it's the best the best tool for the job.

My comments only started when I outlined why it wasn't the best tool for me and why I personally didn't like it and therefore didn't choose it. For me, there was a more suitable tool. Not perfect certainly, but fitting my own criteria rather better - and yet still very modestly priced.

jetlag

21-10-2009, 10:06 AM

I'm not disputing that. My point was only to say that, for £35 a year, despite it's annoying limitations, it's a great product to get you started. I've already said that it's not perfect, nor is it going to please everyone. But, what is undeniable is that it is a cheap way to get a good looking website up, especially if you have a limited number of products. There are lots of irritating things about it, though, you won't get any argument from me there. And that is exactly why I cracked out £400 to buy Actinic.

Quite frankly, most of mrsite's really annoying traits could be pretty easily rectified (such as setting your own page sizes and making them dynamic and not fixed and naming your pages), but they don't. They choose to concentrate on other issues, probably those which they can charge more money for. But then, they're not a charity and are in business to make money, so I can't really fault them for that.

You're not the only person that won't use mrsite. I don't anymore. You seem to think I'm having a pop at you and I'm not. I'm just trying to answer the original poster's question.

Boo

21-10-2009, 12:48 PM

No, I thought we were just discussing the issues.

I sort of split the difference myself and went with Cubecart. I looked at the main freely available, popular and inexpensive pre-made carts - CubeCart, ZenCart and OSCommerce - as well as several independent ones available with particular hosts.

I saw a particular jewellery site for an Australian company that was just the sort of combination of elegance and function that I was after and that was based on Cubecart and set me down that road. I realise now that the site I'd seen must have been heavily modded and skinned for the appearance and layout - but I do at least now have the functions that I liked on that site. At the time, it was the only one that allowed more than one photo of a product - they all do now, but not then.

I chose a web host that had all three available to install and literally tried all three - one each in a sub-directory - which is why have a splash page on my own site - I had the old version of my site working in front of my trials and just changed over once I was happy I'd got it well enough established.

I'll post a link below to an image file - it's a screen grab of my admin panel for adding a product - which as you can see is very simple indeed - much more so than Zen which just bamboozled me. Cubecart was different from the others in that it allows you to mod your own appearance more easily through the style sheets etc. - so skinning it myself - based heavily on a standard template - was easier for me than perhaps most might find it.

But it depends on your particular skills - it was easy for me to change the page layout - the template was a 3 column layout and I removed the right one and put some of those elements on the left instead of ones that were there and changed colour scheme by editing the HTML and CSS and replacing the standard graphics.

I had intended to buy a custom skin, but the people that tested my site said they liked my test version better, so I just worked it up a bit more instead. I've modded it a little, some free ones, some I've bought and there are others I'd still like too - but perhaps technically beyond me, so I'll pay the developer to install them for me. When funds allow.

Screen grab: http://www.boo-jewellery.co.uk/images/cubecartscreengrab.jpg

Di Sandland

21-10-2009, 01:22 PM

That's really neat Boo. I'm afraid I made a mistake and chose Fasthosts - for price more than anything, cos my OH was in the driving seat. Their wysiwyg package is pants. I have built sites before using Front Page but that was years ago and I've forgotten the stuff I learnt then. My bro is very good at flash and I had to gently tell him, no, that's not what I want.

I'm sort of okay with my end result with the Fasthosts stuff but there is little room for personalisation. Ah, well, when funds allow and all that...

Ominicci

21-10-2009, 10:13 PM

Ha ha my brother is a Flash expert too - A Guru they call him and he was head hunted by the Flash people (in Japan I think) to be a moderator on their forum a few years ago.

I will mention it again for those that might have missed it -

There is a new MrSite Forum for MrSite site owners to ask questions on - both of other MrSite site owners and of the tech team. There are also handy Tips and Hints threads to help you with different aspects of running your MrSite site.