Factoring your time into your jewellery costs

[lolabead]

me again! Just curious, can most jewellery makers REALLY charge accurately for their time? I seem to take so long to make a necklace, from the design stage through to completion. Today's example is I've spent all day on just 1 third of the necklace. I'm not even touching on the time required to source and choose materials etc. If I charge for my time my prices would be way over acceptable but perhaps that's because I'm new at it!

[caroleallen]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's because you're still learning and everything takes a lot more time. It seems only 5 minutes since I was in your position, though it's actually about 17 years. I've tried everything in the book to build my business and it's been hard work. Keep going and you'll eventually find you can make a living at it.

[Tabby66]

Hi Lola,

This is a difficult and much debated discussion!!

When you first do something it does take you longer, it certainly did me and still does. Even now, if I compare the first time I make a piece to the time taken to remake it, I am much quicker on the remake. What I have also found is that most work has a retail price and I don't count my hours into this....I do count my costs and I am aware of my time and complexity of the work involved,....but what I have found is that it is swings and roundabouts with regards to the price/profit ratio and over a body of work it pretty well evens itself out.....

Hope this helps a little and I'm sure other folk will be along to share their views!!

Tabby x

[enigma]

Yes, what Tabby said about the swings and roundabouts ^
Plus also whats already been said about the time taken to learn etc.
Overall I make a good hourly rate but thats because some things Im now adept at so can do a lot quicker which balances out the things that I struggle at.
If I charged my hourly rate for the stone setting Im currently struggling with it would be ludicrous as I would be charging way more for the job than a professional who would do a far better job.
However Im really quick at carving wax, braiding and piercing for example so those things balance out the time that stone setting takes me.
As you progress and learn more skills it definitely gets better.

[lolabead]

feel better having read those replies. Seem to be non struggling with almost everything I pick up! It's either too big, too small, not neat enough, not this enough not that enough! I'm taking a break this afternoon I can't seem to make a simple wire wrap clasp even today.
Enigma wish you well on the stone setting which is something I would like to do in the future but realised it's one step at a time!

[enigma]

Thanks Lolabead,

I suspect we all have days like that, I know I do!
I think many things can be perfected through practise if you are able to see where you went wrong and adjust the next time.
Some things though, need hands on tuition I think and you will know as those will be the things you just aren't getting no matter how much you try.

[Patstone]

The only thing that I have found is that charging an hourly rate isnt always possible. One instance is, we were at a craft fair which is a monthly affair so we have regular customers coming in to see what we have made and buying stuff, but one new person had a look at some wire rings we had made, which were literally two bits of twisted 0.8mm wire and soldered together. She commented that she could get the same on the internet at half the price. We were selling them at £12. Another instance is a shop that I used to go into to buy cabs and is quite into semi precious stones set into rings etc, are now buying in from China to support their 25 shops, instead of having a jeweller in the shop making stuff. Do they have to have it hallmarked etc I wonder, or not, but how can we compete with people like that, the most expensive ring I have on my craft stall is £70 and that is the Aquamarine one that I was showing you guys the other day, big stone which cost me £32 to buy, set in silver, all handmade findings etc. A friend of mine that is Chinese and is a student at the university (she fell in love with my dogs and we got chatting) said that in China some people will work for virtually nothing, just food, so obviously the finished cost will be a lot lower, but its still sterling silver and semi precious stones.

[ps_bond]

I've said this before once or twice.

If your USP is price, then it is a race to the bottom and you will lose.
Handmade jewellery - handmade anything - cannot compete on price.

[Patstone]

Trouble is a lot of people cannot afford to buy handmade/exclusive, not down this way anyway. The only way to get what its worth in my opinion is the more exclusive craft fairs or online, saying that, we have only had one online sale in four years. We hand out business cards as if its sweeties, every opportunity. But to go to the "exclusive" craft fairs you are talking about £300 a stall for a days show, so way more than we can afford anyway. At the monthly craft fair we go to we normally sell about £200 ish, for about three or four items and the stall is £30. All of our items are hand made, even the findings, and all sterling silver, not everything is hallmarked if its under weight because it works out too expensive, commissions are hallmarked as it looks better. All the guys on here say we are charging too little but if we hiked up the prices we wouldnt sell anything. Our craft fair has a lot of coach trips coming down so the customers are sometimes a bit older, but families come too so its a range of age groups. This isnt a gripe, just an observation.

[lolabead]

hi guys really great to hear your comments. I knew I'd never get rich with jewellery but I thought that. once established I would at least make enough to cover my costs and make a reasonable profit. There are many jewellery makers who are content just to recoup enough to buy materials to make more jewellery. I can see how they arrive at that point. I love making it really but I do need also to earn money from it. I am seriously debating whether to carry on or not. My fiancé has been very supportive of me and has covered all the bills for the past 7 months while I do this but I can't let it continue like this. Feeling rather despondent.

[Gemsetterchris]

Nothing wrong having an hourly rate of £60 so long as you only take 5 minutes.:-p

[Keia]

I think the sheer lack of decent craft fairs has a lot to answer for. We have one held every other friday in our wee town, sounds great in theory but it's no good having them on a weekday morning. Side note, I really wish people would stop and think at craft fairs about their attitudes towards handcrafted stuff, making comments about how they could get it cheaper on eBay is down right rude and disrespectful to the person that sat and made it.
However, if you find the right venue or online platform, technically you can then charge whatever you like, and people do pay. You should never undersell yourself though, you really do need to find the best platforms for the type of clientèle you want. I've found that galleries placed in tourist traps are the best for me. I'm currently with two and that makes me enough each month to keep things ticking over at a good pace. As my kids get older and need me less, I add another gallery to the list. I charge £8.00 p/h on my work and gradually increase that slowly over time as my skills increase. It all balances out in the end =)

[enigma]

I've said this before once or twice.

If your USP is price, then it is a race to the bottom and you will lose.
Handmade jewellery - handmade anything - cannot compete on price.

This is the thing, you need to find a USP that will sell your work.
Be unique, design the unusual, find your niche.
Competing against the generic with the generic you will never succeed.

That isn't directed at anybody or a comment on anybodies work BTW, just a general statement.

[Gemsetterchris]

She commented that she could get the same on the internet at half the price.

Aha! what about making stuff she can`t get anywhere else.

[Aurarius]

A friend of mine that is Chinese and is a student at the university (she fell in love with my dogs and we got chatting) said that in China some people will work for virtually nothing, just food, so obviously the finished cost will be a lot lower, but its still sterling silver and semi precious stones.
To give a different perspective, whenever my Chinese inlaws come to the UK, what they really want to take home with them are things that are made (preferably by hand) in our country, not China. In most shops the search is futile, as the ubiquitous "Made in China" stamp crowds everything else out. My wife recently went back to China for a stay and took some items of jewelry made in the UK as gifts, one or two made by me. They were very greatly appreciated.

It's all a question of cachet. As long as the quality of an item is obviously high, the cachet to a Chinese person (and discerning British people) of owning an item handmade in the UK cannot be overestimated.

People have asked how they can compete on price with imported jewelry when they are trying to make a living selling their own handmade items. As Peter and Chris have indicated, you can't compete on price, so forget it. But on exclusivity you can blow your cheap import competitors out of the water. Whatever selling approach you take, if you don't emphasize this point about exclusivity again and again ad nauseam you're doing yourself an injustice and to some extent undermining and wasting your hard work making and selling things in the first place.

[CJ57]

I feel very strongly as I've probably said before about pricing! Like Peter and Aurarius have said we are producing unique handmade pieces with everything that goes along with that. If we start pricing to what people expect to pay rather than what it's worth we are in big trouble. I believe it undervalues not only our own work but everyone else's if we don't put a true worth on our work. You are selling a product of quality not something they are going to buy on eBay or in accessorise every weekend as a throwaway. I used to have a girl worked for me and every weekend she spent £20 or so on the High St on some bit of shoddy costume jewellery that she wore a few times or then lost but she would never consider paying 100 for something that she could keep. Maybe it's just our throwaway society.
I have taken issue in the past with a Gallery who bought in cheap import jewellery and then put bespoke next to it. Human nature is that if the cheap is nice and wearable that's what people will buy first. The reasoning from the gallery was it was their bread and butter but then they wondered why their hand made exclusive work didn't sell. I don't think I ever see them buying in imported paintings though and hanging them next to their best selling artists:/

Like Tabby I have pretty well worked out a price for a piece rather than working an hourly rate. I've seen me labour for hours perfecting a clasp or something for a piece, I need Donald Trump for that hourly rate:)

[Gemsetterchris]

It's perceived value that matters to a buyer, silver doesn't generally rate very highly in that respect so the piece has to be either be extraordinary or quick to make.

You might need to step up materials if you want to spend a lot of time on a design to make it worthwhile.

There is a balance between churning out work & actually enjoying it...spending half hour over something you could have called finished in 10 minutes...we've all been there.
Bottom line is that abit of twisted wire doesn't really warrant much no matter how much time spent & neither does any basic design.

Better material will allow that extra time & profit because of the added value customers automatically associate with it.

That's my view at least.
?

[medusa]

It's perceived value that matters to a buyer, silver doesn't generally rate very highly in that respect so the piece has to be either be extraordinary or quick to make.

You might need to step up materials if you want to spend a lot of time on a design to make it worthwhile.

There is a balance between churning out work & actually enjoying it...spending half hour over something you could have called finished in 10 minutes...we've all been there.
Bottom line is that abit of twisted wire doesn't really warrant much no matter how much time spent & neither does any basic design.

Better material will allow that extra time & profit because of the added value customers automatically associate with it.

That's my view at least.
?

Yeah, I go with that about value of materials, although you do get stuff in silver which is extraordinarily expensive sometimes. Even stuff in silver plate can be stupid money. I had an idea for something and decided to see if it had been done (it had, of course) and saw cast brass pendants selling for £150. I don;t get it. The silver versions were about double.

In terms of pricing as you learn, I think the best approach is to see what else is out there that is similar and hand made and price accordingly. That way you are selling for a realistic price and whilst not making a huge hourly rate, at least it goes up over time as you get quicker. I've gone from about 50p per hour to around £9 an hour over the last few years.

[camalidesign]

That old chestnut, eh?! :)

If people don't have the money to spend where you go to sell, then you are in the wrong place! Don't limit yourself to your local craft fairs, because people expect to buy thing for nothing, a few people sitting there with their hobby made things, content with covering their materials so they can make more. A lot of people don't realise that some traders actually try to make a living out of it and that you actually PAY TO BE THERE. I'm amazed at how many people think you can just rock up and start selling your things with no charge for the space etc. You need to find your market, if you do you can charge premium for your work.

I think it's a lot down to design/"uniqueness" and I find not always so much about materials, if someone likes your design they are likely to pay good money for it whether it's made from tin or silver... Just look at all the Scandi brands that sell for quite a bit of money, e.g. Efva Attling, Dyrberg & Kern and the likes, they used to use plated metals and still charged high prices! Of course they have the brand advantage...

Ignore people who say "I can buy that elsewhere for less", or "my daughter can make that", because if that was the case then why don't they, and why are they even looking? The difference between saying that and actually doing it is a big one! Have confidence in your work and come up with ways of meeting comments like that. I usually just say "how nice, you should do that then"!!

I know it's hard to value yourself, but if you don't, nobody else will.

Carin

[CJ57]

That old chestnut, eh?! :)

If people don't have the money to spend where you go to sell, then you are in the wrong place! Don't limit yourself to your local craft fairs, because people expect to buy thing for nothing, a few people sitting there with their hobby made things, contact with covering their materials so they can make more. A lot of people don't realise that some traders actually try to make a living out of it and that you actually PAY TO BE THERE. I'm amazed at how many people think you can just rock up and start selling your things with no charge for the space etc. You need to find your market, if you do you can charge premium for your work.

I think it's a lot down to design/"uniqueness" and I find not always so much about materials, if someone likes your design they are likely to pay good money for it whether it's made from tin or silver... Just look at all the Scandi brands that sell for quite a bit of money, e.g. Efva Attling, Dyrberg & Kern and the likes, they used to use plated metals and still charged high prices! Of course they have the brand advantage...

Ignore people who say "I can buy that elsewhere for less", or "my daughter can make that", because if that was the case then why don't they, and why are they even looking? The difference between saying that and actually doing it is a big one! Have confidence in your work and come up with ways of meeting comments like that. I usually just say "how nice, you should do that then"!!

I know it's hard to value yourself, but if you don't, nobody else will.

Carin
You're a woman after my own heart Carin. The first year I did the OS I had a few visitors very loudly saying' oh well I don't suppose I can afford my favourite piece then' after looking at the price list! I made some cheaper pieces for the following year and they didn't sell because my heart wasn't in them.
I stand firm now, not everyone can afford some of my work, maybe some day they will be able to but there is always someone who can and sees it for its worth and not because they are looking for a bargain.
I can't afford a Jaguar but I can dream:)

[Keia]

I know it's hard to value yourself, but if you don't, nobody else will.

Carin

Nail & head =D

[caroleallen]

The only way I make money is by making everything the quickest way I can. I have lots of labour saving equipment and I get a lot of stuff cast. I make much more money selling 20 pairs of cast silver earrings which take me half an hour to finish than I do making 1 pair from scratch in the same time and for the same price. Whether I get the same satisfaction is debatable but at least I'm making a good living.

As for local craft fairs, they're really not worth doing these days, except at Christmas. I don't even do the expensive ones in the South East any more.

[camalidesign]

I guess it all depends on the market you cater to. I prefer to make fewer pieces at a higher cost because it's just me making. I haven't got any staff to spread the load :) So for me it works better with one offs and then some collections (including some cast pieces) as a base. It makes it more fun for me as well, I hate making the same thing over and over! The one off appeal is important for some customers who want the exclusivity, but others don't mind that the pieces they buy are sold in multiples.

It also depends on how you price your stuff. Whether you price according to time spent on a piece plus all the usual (materials, overheads, profit etc.) or if you price according to what the piece could fetch, e.g. for a cast piece you can have a larger markup due to the less labour you spend on it in relation to the final perceived value of the piece, if that makes sense! :) What I mean is that having it cast will cut down the cost of labour, but the end result is similar to a piece that was made from scratch which took a lot longer to make. So yes, I can see how you make more money on those cast pieces that just need finishing, Carole.

I guess the trick is, regardless of your market and your production model, that you don't underprice what you offer.

Carin

[enigma]

Its swings and roundabouts really, if you have stuff cast then you need to know how many you are going to sell so are getting further into the job of retailer.
I have a few items that I have sold quite a few of so would have been easier to send out for casting but its always a gamble then to how many you might sell.
Mostly though I would die of boredom if I had to keep making the same thing so prefer the challenge of new designs even if it takes me more time ( much more time if it has stones in hahaha)

[Patstone]

I agree with Carin really, I only do mine as a hobby so as long as I cover my costs with craft fairs it doesnt really matter. I get a huge kick out of selling things, not just because of the money but because someone loves something I have made. Sad isnt it, but every piece both my daughter and I make is unique, no two items are ever the same. The only exception we make is if someone loves say a ring, but it doesnt fit, then we will make one that does, but we will make it very slightly different, say for instance, make the bezel back a bit bigger so it has a small surround. For me the pleasure is in the design and making.

[caroleallen]

I started out making one-offs. I soon found though, that if I had a design which sold quickly, I'd make more of them and I started developing ranges. This was helpful as the more I made, the quicker I got and the more money I could make. Making one-offs always takes a lot longer. Before long, my jewellery was being recognised and people would buy, say a necklace and then come back for the matching earrings. It was also good in that people could buy for other members of the family, knowing that they liked my work. This was also good for galleries as they could order work from me and know that it would be consistent.

I've done shows (big and small), galleries, trade shows, jewellery parties - in fact, you name it, I've done it. I'm very "lucky" now that I don't have to do them but I've done the ground work.

[camalidesign]

Collections definitely makes sense when it comes to selling to galleries and shops, very true. They like displaying a cohesive range, easier to get impact that way. Although I also have a gallery that specifically wants my one off pieces, it's just down to what they do and how they market themselves, with one offs and larger pieces for more money. So that's good for me, means I get to do both! :)

You are right Carole, one offs do take longer, first time a pieces is made you always experiment and tweak until it's right and of course the next one if you make it, is a lot quicker. I do quite often find that I haven't really charged enough for commissions, I have to get better at adding contingencies to the labour cost! Oh well, like you said, it's all a learning curve and I think one just has to get through it and arrive at what works best for one self, one's kind of work and work situation.

Similar with me, I have only done 1 show this year, and that was my local Food, Arts and Crafts Festival here in Boscastle, which I only really do because it's my local event. Other than that I am lucky as well in that my online sales and commissions made keeps me busy. Would be so nice to have more time to play though! :) If only I could win the lottery, what fun I would have with all the materials and time I would have! :)

Carin

[enigma]

Yes new designs always take me longer too but so much fun !

Eurgh to shows! I did one exhibition when I was painting and hated it and have never, nor will ever, do another.
Thankfully I found a niche that sells well online.

[lolabead]

The only way I make money is by making everything the quickest way I can. I have lots of labour saving equipment and I get a lot of stuff cast. I make much more money selling 20 pairs of cast silver earrings which take me half an hour to finish than I do making 1 pair from scratch in the same time and for the same price. Whether I get the same satisfaction is debatable but at least I'm making a good living.

As for local craft fairs, they're really not worth doing these days, except at Christmas. I don't even do the expensive ones in the South East any more.

Really sorry for ignorance but what is meant by 'cast'?

Also just wanted to add I've been clicking on the links to all of your websites etc. and am feeling very privileged to be able to come here on and connect with such talented people.

[enigma]

Lost wax casting Lola, where you make a model in wax or clay then make a mould of that which is then used over and over again to create the metal version.
Its great for certain metal items if you want exact copies.
One of my horses hooves Ive sold about 30 of in the last few months, if I had known I would have sent off for them to be cast but instead Ive cast them myself in my Delft clay system one at a time- much more time consuming.

I feel the same BTW, there are some very talented folk on here, we are so lucky to have such a resource :)

[Gemsetterchris]

Mostly though I would die of boredom if I had to keep making the same thing so prefer the challenge of new designs even if it takes me more time.

This.
I don`t mind doing a few repeats, works out well money wise but that`s not a good enough reason for me.
I`ve had day`s doing production work that payed a months bills, but not a gram of satisfaction from it.

[caroleallen]

What's so great about this forum is the diversity of work and the way we earn a crust. I too feel very privileged to have this resource and not a day goes by that I don't learn something new.

[Anna Wales]

I enjoy the forum very much. There's always something of interest to find.
I didn't come back into jewellery making with a set idea just tried out a few things. I've got a certain number of venues that we go to for direct selling to the public which I feel is important and I enjoy meeting people. Photo's will never do your work justice people need to hold and see pieces. Online orders follow on from there and I also now stock a few shops.
I have a range of castings that I use so as Carol says minimal time to finish and then also one off or more castings plus extra work pieces so keeping things interesting but also having reliable pieces that bring in the "rent" money.

Some things are bound to be slow to begin with but they do get quicker the more you do them so keep going and good luck.

[CJ57]

It's often said ' I'm self taught and still learning' but it doesn't matter how any of us came in to this if you are still going decades on, you will still be learning. We wouldn't still be here is we weren't adding new skills and techniques, buying new equipment that requires another skill. It's what keeps it fresh and keeps us broke :)

[enigma]

It's what keeps it fresh and keeps us broke :)

Hmmm, yes, this is the bit thats worrying me :-D

[CJ57]

Hmmm, yes, this is the bit thats worrying me :-D

You have to be able to lock up the card when you join a forum:) Since joining the GETi forum a few years back especially and now this one I have bought so much new equipment I had done without for 25 years that I can barely get into my workshop now and can't wait on the new cabin! It has opened up exciting new possibilities but it has been very expensive

[art925]

At the risk of completely hijacking this thread, with the discussion moving on to workshops full of tools and equipment...consider Abou Bakrine......and use your feet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWIsdGJ-030

Its a long watch but fun.

Lesley

[enigma]

Yes its definitely a bad influence ! :rofl:
Mind you at least we get to discover the pitfalls and which machine is best suited etc etc as well as all the other great help and advice :)

[caroleallen]

At the risk of completely hijacking this thread, with the discussion moving on to workshops full of tools and equipment...consider Abou Bakrine......and use your feet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWIsdGJ-030

Its a long watch but fun.

Lesley


That's an amazing video. I need to consider whether my feet would be any good.

[medusa]

Mostly though I would die of boredom if I had to keep making the same thing

I like working on new ideas but I think I must be weird because I can get into doing repetitive stuff.

[Petal]

I like working on new ideas but I think I must be weird because I can get into doing repetitive stuff.

I'm the same. I love creating new things, but also really like doing the repetitive stuff, especially with some fab music to go with it. It makes the time fly and I very often associate certain pieces I've made with the music I was listening to at the same time. Also like Carole, I have learnt new things every time I've logged on here and always make time to read, even if I rarely have time to post now....

[Anna Wales]

Yes its definitely a bad influence ! :rofl:
Mind you at least we get to discover the pitfalls and which machine is best suited etc etc as well as all the other great help and advice :)
Having had a 15 year break from last making, coming back and seeing so many new tools etc the forum was so helpful in being able to read up on how other people had found things and saved me a fortune. Talk about a kid in the sweet shop.


I like working on new ideas but I think I must be weird because I can get into doing repetitive stuff.
I'm weird with you too then. Also I've got a good cold at the moment so yesterday spent the whole day making daffodil earrings as I can do them almost without thinking. I knew I needed to work but wanted something almost comforting to do.


I'm the same. I love creating new things, but also really like doing the repetitive stuff, especially with some fab music to go with it. It makes the time fly and I very often associate certain pieces I've made with the music I was listening to at the same time. Also like Carole, I have learnt new things every time I've logged on here and always make time to read, even if I rarely have time to post now....
It's 36 years since I made my first piece of jewellery but I've learnt so much since joining the forum in the last couple of years. Also it's nice to have contact with other makers as it can sometimes be a bit solitary in my cave!

[enigma]

I like working on new ideas but I think I must be weird because I can get into doing repetitive stuff.

Yes even I can enjoy it at times, the familiarity and the knowledge that I won't mess up because I actually know what Im doing can be comforting LOL

But I do get all excited when I get the chance to work out new designs.

[Keia]

You have to be able to lock up the card when you join a forum:) Since joining the GETi forum a few years back especially and now this one I have bought so much new equipment I had done without for 25 years that I can barely get into my workshop now and can't wait on the new cabin! It has opened up exciting new possibilities but it has been very expensive

I'm still coming over to stroke all your tools Caroline.

[CJ57]

I'm still coming over to stroke all your tools Caroline.
You are welcome any time Sian, I've got a scratch on my new Durston planishing set, can't have that:)

[Keia]

Ooohh no! Is it bad? =S I'll stroke it so much that scratch will come right out.

[Tabby66]

Lol, Keia.....join the queue :dance:

This has been a really interesting read...like everyone else, I keep on learning!!

I mostly make one offs or similar repeats, altering something to make it unique,....however I have this year also ventured down the cast route for certain pieces (which I don't have on my website, funnily enough).....but do find them therapeutic in terms of the repeated rhythm of the work.....also great if I am not in the need of something challenging....these pieces have predominately been done with fairs in mind....this year has been my venture into trying out a number of fairs....some have been great....and some haven't (some of the casting I have anticipated well..and again some I have over or underestimated)....next year will be based on more experience at least!!

I also stock a couple of galleries and a shop, the latter is my best turnover.....I think they are more proactive about selling than galleries!! Ooh, to find another 2-3 of those!!

In general terms I agree with Carin and Caroline about pricing, but also Carole....and no way have you just been 'lucky' Carole in terms of making a good living, you make beautiful items, great designs and have worked incredibly hard,....you have used techniques to reduce labour and costs and you have also listened to your market .....and thus have a successful business,....you may have had to accept some drawbacks to that, (such as the reduced satisfaction from one-offs), but it has been fantastic to see just how your business has grown!!....it doesn't seem that long ago that everyone was concerned about you (on 'the other forum') working almost 24hours at this time of year to keep up with fairs and commissions on your own (with Mr Carole's fantastic support!!)

Cor blimey....after all that...I've forgotten what else I read in this thread!!!!
Tabby xx

[caroleallen]

Thank you Tabby. That's a huge compliment as your work is so beautiful. It's great to see people's talents and skills growing.