PDA

View Full Version : Making a lapiz cab ring



Goldsmith
11-09-2014, 08:32 AM
I am not sure if I have posted this before, so apologies if you have seen it. This was a simple bezel set ring that I made for my daughter and I took photos along the making process for a book I am writing and I thought that some learners might find them useful.

Here are the first 5 showing the first stages of preparing and soldering.
65696570657165726573

Goldsmith
11-09-2014, 08:35 AM
65746575657665776578Here are the next 5 photos;

Goldsmith
11-09-2014, 08:37 AM
And the next 5.
65796580658165826583

Goldsmith
11-09-2014, 08:39 AM
Finally finished;

658465856586

James

BarryM
11-09-2014, 01:41 PM
I am just a hobby jeweller but between picture 13 and 14 you have reshaped the ring from a rectangular cross section to D shaped. Is there any reason that you did this after soldering to the cab setting rather than before? As a beginner I would have done it before - it being much easier (at least it would seem to me) to work the ring without the setting attached.

Nice job - looks really good.

Goldsmith
11-09-2014, 02:14 PM
I am just a hobby jeweller but between picture 13 and 14 you have reshaped the ring from a rectangular cross section to D shaped. Is there any reason that you did this after soldering to the cab setting rather than before? As a beginner I would have done it before - it being much easier (at least it would seem to me) to work the ring without the setting attached.

Nice job - looks really good.

Barry, On silver rings I always make the ring shank slightly smaller than required and after I soldered the ring shank to the setting, I hammered the ring shank section on a ring mandrel to harden it and enlarge it to the required ring size. Then I filed the shank to the D shape before setting the stone in place and polishing.

James

BarryM
11-09-2014, 03:46 PM
Thanks, that is a really useful bit of experience passed on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aurarius
11-09-2014, 05:15 PM
I am not sure if I have posted this before, so apologies if you have seen it. This was a simple bezel set ring that I made for my daughter and I took photos along the making process for a book I am writing and I thought that some learners might find them useful.

It's good to see this. Could you tell us which grades of solder you would use for each part of the job? I'm assuming hard for the bezel wall and to close the ring shank? What would you use for soldering on the base and attaching the completed bezel to the ring?
Thanks. Mark.

Goldsmith
11-09-2014, 05:38 PM
It's good to see this. Could you tell us which grades of solder you would use for each part of the job? I'm assuming hard for the bezel wall and to close the ring shank? What would you use for soldering on the base and attaching the completed bezel to the ring?
Thanks. Mark.

You are correct saying I used hard solder on the ring shank and oval bezel. I also used hard solder when adding the backplate to the bezel. I soldered the shank to the backplate with easy. I don't use medium solder.

James

Patstone
12-09-2014, 06:30 AM
Once you soldered on the bezel to the bottom, did you pierce away the remains or snip it off. Also the top of the bezel near the stone as Mark said is a "D" shape, I thought it had to be more of a knife edge, could be thats where I am going wrong, my bezel edges after setting always look a bit chewed, could it be that I am filing it a bit too much because on the finished ring your bezel does look a bit thicker than mine. I make a lot of rings, its one of my favourite things to make so any info would be helpful. Let me know when your book comes out as I will top of the buyers list. Big fan !!!!

Gemsetterchris
12-09-2014, 06:54 AM
Once you soldered on the bezel to the bottom, did you pierce away the remains or snip it off. Also the top of the bezel near the stone as Mark said is a "D" shape, I thought it had to be more of a knife edge, could be thats where I am going wrong, my bezel edges after setting always look a bit chewed, could it be that I am filing it a bit too much because on the finished ring your bezel does look a bit thicker than mine. I make a lot of rings, its one of my favourite things to make so any info would be helpful. Let me know when your book comes out as I will top of the buyers list. Big fan !!!!

Still having problems? we have discussed your bezel setting twice, I doubt James can add much more on that subject.

James: I admire your ability to make a simple job so elegantly even in silver, most seem to hash things together without the small attention to details & neatness which is why most jewellery looks so nasty.

Goldsmith
12-09-2014, 07:05 AM
Once you soldered on the bezel to the bottom, did you pierce away the remains or snip it off. Also the top of the bezel near the stone as Mark said is a "D" shape, I thought it had to be more of a knife edge, could be thats where I am going wrong, my bezel edges after setting always look a bit chewed, could it be that I am filing it a bit too much because on the finished ring your bezel does look a bit thicker than mine. I make a lot of rings, its one of my favourite things to make so any info would be helpful. Let me know when your book comes out as I will top of the buyers list. Big fan !!!!

Pat, photos number 9 + 10 show that I pierced away the bezel backing. The bezel strip was 0.5mm. thick and when setting the stone, I push over opposing edges and burnish the edges over the stone. Then I use a needle file to smooth any marks in the bezel, thinning the top edge and to tidy up the whole look of the setting, after filing the final job is cutting around the top of the setting edge with a scorper before polishing. I hope this all makes sense.

6589

James

Goldsmith
12-09-2014, 07:15 AM
Still having problems? we have discussed your bezel setting twice, I doubt James can add much more on that subject.

James: I admire your ability to make a simple job so elegantly even in silver, most seem to hash things together without the small attention to details & neatness which is why most jewellery looks so nasty.

Thanks for your nice comments Chris, I don't make much silver jewellery, it's just that my daughter does not like gold jewellery, she likes the simple stuff and has silver rings on all fingers. I have made a few nice pieces of jewellery but most of my stuff was large objet d-art pieces. Seeing your work on the Tank watch took me back a bit. In my past I worked at a company staffed by ex Wright and Davies goldsmiths and we made quite a few special order Tank watches for Cartier. I don't do my own setting on the best jobs, I leave that to experts like yourself. This was the last decent set of earrings I made about 10 years ago.

6590

James

caroleallen
12-09-2014, 07:47 AM
Lovely earrings James.

Pat, I'm sure James was happy to answer your questions. Some of us (me included) need a bit of extra help sometimes. That's why this is such a friendly place (usually!).

Gemsetterchris
12-09-2014, 08:21 AM
Pat, I'm sure James was happy to answer your questions. Some of us (me included) need a bit of extra help sometimes. That's why this is such a friendly place (usually!).

Was that me being blunt :rolleyes:, just seems abit odd to keep asking the same thing when you have all the answers (twice over), you just need to make them work by practicing, not trying to find a miracle cure.

James: I did a little bit of outwork for Garrards years ago, these days it`s getting hard to find quality handmade..99% of jobs these days involve cost or corner cutting in some form or other unfortunately.

Goldsmith
12-09-2014, 09:39 AM
Here is another photo of some of my daughters bezel set silver rings;

6593

James

Lulabelle
12-09-2014, 10:07 AM
James, you have a very lucky daughter!! You manage to make even simple rings look so elegant! Thank you for posting step by step photos, it's really interesting and informative.

Lucy


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Patstone
12-09-2014, 02:26 PM
Chris, I am sorry if I keep asking questions about bezel setting, at the class I went to we didn't learn much other than soldering. There must be something fundamental that I am not doing correctly and I want to find out what it is. I file my bezel edge with a 6 file and it still looks chewed, but I am going to try to use fine silver not bezel silver next time and perhaps I am filing it too thin, but somehow I will find out what I am doing wrong. Everything else turns out good and I sell quite a few bits at craft shows, plus of course it's not easy judging distance when you only have one eye when you are used to having two.

Gemsetterchris
12-09-2014, 03:40 PM
PM sent Patsone.

theresa
14-09-2014, 03:48 PM
After reading through all of the correspondence I think the key to a brilliant bezel is the scorper.
Bought a scorper but have shied away from shaping it yet. The instructions seem straightforward enough but not very confident about actually doing it.
At the moment it keeps looking at me from where its lying on my bench.....
Also, using fine silver bezel makes a huge difference.

Theresa

Patstone
16-09-2014, 08:38 AM
I have just made a ring in sterling and have done the bezel in fine silver, not finished yet but I have found it a lot easier to use than the bezel silver. I suppose it is a bit thicker too which lends itself to more sanding etc. I will put up a pic of it when its finished. What shape scorper do you use James, I have an onglette "V" ??? and a square one, I am guessing its the "V" one, I will give it a bash when I get to setting in the stone. Just out of interest, when you can buy "D" wire, why do you use square and file it to a "D".

Goldsmith
16-09-2014, 10:34 AM
I have just made a ring in sterling and have done the bezel in fine silver, not finished yet but I have found it a lot easier to use than the bezel silver. I suppose it is a bit thicker too which lends itself to more sanding etc. I will put up a pic of it when its finished. What shape scorper do you use James, I have an onglette "V" ??? and a square one, I am guessing its the "V" one, I will give it a bash when I get to setting in the stone. Just out of interest, when you can buy "D" wire, why do you use square and file it to a "D".

I use a flat scorper so that no cutting edge is on the stone, be careful using an onglette as you may damage the stone as not all stones are that hard.
This is the scorper that I used to cut around my bezel.
6608

James

Gemsetterchris
16-09-2014, 10:55 AM
You could try buffing a mirror finish to the top surface first before setting, then you`ll not need to do much if anything except burnish the outside edge.

Patstone
16-09-2014, 05:31 PM
Not a happy lady, I have been all afternoon trying to bend the fine silver bezel over the stone. The stone was rocking, so I put a jumpring inside as the middle was a bit uneven. Filed the edge to a knife edge and it looked good, but alas couldnt bend the silver over the stone so left it for tonight. Will give an update tomorrow I expect. Not sure what thickness I should have used but used 0.5mm as I had it in stock. Watch this space !!!!!!

Aurarius
16-09-2014, 06:08 PM
Not a happy lady, I have been all afternoon trying to bend the fine silver bezel over the stone. The stone was rocking, so I put a jumpring inside as the middle was a bit uneven. Filed the edge to a knife edge and it looked good, but alas couldnt bend the silver over the stone so left it for tonight. Will give an update tomorrow I expect. Not sure what thickness I should have used but used 0.5mm as I had it in stock. Watch this space !!!!!!
Sorry to hear about your frustrations, Pat.
How are you trying to push the metal over? Are you just pushing on a tool or are you hammering it. If a bezel edge can't be pushed over easily I tend to use light hammer taps on a square ended prong pusher, going all the way round the setting, perhaps several times. I don't find the metal has to be thinned at the top. I do do what Chris suggests, which is to get the top edge of the bezel very even and polished before I push it over so that there is minimal finishing to do on it once it is hugging the stone.
Ed. You say the stone was rocking. Is this because the bottom of the bezel was uneven or the bottom of the stone? Either way, it's best to address those problems before setting. Both can be ground flat if necessary.

Patstone
16-09-2014, 06:43 PM
Just finished replying and pushed the wrong button and it all disappeared. Try again - Thanks for the info, I wondered if my hands werent strong enough to push the silver over the stone. Normally I use bezel silver but this time thought I would try to see if fine silver would look less chewed around the edge of the bezel. Never thought of hammering it, will try it tomorrow, I paid about £30 for the stone so very reluctant to mess with it too much. Its a topaz and beautiful but a bit too big for a ring really, think it may look better as a pendant, but I love rings and earrings, so make quite a lot of them. It cant be all bad though as my daughter and I went to a small village fair and sold over £100 each so quite pleased, but I would like to conquer the ring problem.

Aurarius
16-09-2014, 08:10 PM
Just finished replying and pushed the wrong button and it all disappeared. Try again - Thanks for the info, I wondered if my hands werent strong enough to push the silver over the stone. Normally I use bezel silver but this time thought I would try to see if fine silver would look less chewed around the edge of the bezel. Never thought of hammering it, will try it tomorrow, I paid about £30 for the stone so very reluctant to mess with it too much. Its a topaz and beautiful but a bit too big for a ring really, think it may look better as a pendant, but I love rings and earrings, so make quite a lot of them. It cant be all bad though as my daughter and I went to a small village fair and sold over £100 each so quite pleased, but I would like to conquer the ring problem.
I'm not sure what you mean by "bezel silver", Pat. If it's not fine silver it will almost certainly be sterling, nothing else. Thicknesses being equal, sterling will require a bit more effort to deform (i.e. push over) than fine silver, but there's no magic ingredient in either that makes it inherently more or less difficult to produce neat work with.

Any thinning of the top of the bezel, such as James mentions, is done to even up and neaten the perimeter of metal around the stone, not to help you push the metal over.

Bear in mind that the more you dent or otherwise mark the outside of the bezel in pushing it over, the more filing and thinning you will have to do after setting the stone to eliminate these marks. Bear in mind also that the inside of the bezel wall is as important as the outside. If the inside is dented or uneven before you start pushing it over then you will never get it to sit evenly against the cab, however much you file the outside to an even finish.

Patstone
17-09-2014, 06:36 AM
Bezel silver is pre-made in two widths (from Cooksons anyway) 3mm and 5mm, which is what we were told to use in the evening class umpteen years ago, suppose its fine silver, not sure about that but no doubt the spiel will tell you. It is sold in strips so I dont have to cut it evenly as its already cut for me. In this case I think the problem is more with the stone shape than with my workmanship, but as I said earlier I thought that putting a jumpring on the inside of the bezel slightly smaller than the outside of the stone would sort out the rocking problem but it didnt. Anyway today is another day so will try again.

Gemsetterchris
17-09-2014, 06:44 AM
Are you using a handheld ring clamp for setting?

Patstone
17-09-2014, 06:47 AM
I have been using it this time. I also have a GRS one and the inside one, and tried both.

Gemsetterchris
17-09-2014, 07:04 AM
I was going to suggest getting a benchmate system to help with your strength issues, It`s a really helpful thing to have & way better than handheld clamps.

Patstone
17-09-2014, 07:55 AM
I think that my whole set-up could do with re-doing I have quite a few nice tools now but my bench is an old office desk, so is about 2 mtrs long but unsupported apart from the end panels and the back panel, the front is not supported at all apart from the end panels and it flexes as its chipboard, so cant hammer anything on it unless I do it over the end panel. If i am to continue to use it i think putting panels either side of my cut-out would give extra support and stop the top from moving. But a bad workman blames his tools so.................................

Gemsetterchris
17-09-2014, 08:18 AM
Get a new bench made & fit a benchmate & thank me later.
At the moment your not doing yourself any favours with your setup & it doesn't suprise me your having issues.

Goldsmith
17-09-2014, 08:27 AM
I agree with Chris, bench stability is a must. Although I do not have a benchmate, they look great but as I am now retired I am trying to get rid of tools rather than buying new ones.
This is my method of supporting the rings I make for my daughter, when setting the stones. I place the ring on a steel ring mandrel, sit it on a leather sandbag, like one of these; http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Leather-Sandbagcushion-Filled----With-Sand-180mm8-1639g-prcode-999-092?p=gs&gclid=CNKRi4zo58ACFSQXwwodCDQAgg then the ring is steady enough to hammer or push the bezel over. My pusher is homemade, it is a length of copper rod filed to shape and set in a graver handle. If I am going to hammer a large bezel I use a chasing hammer with a wooden punch, I actually make my own punches from hardwood rods or if desperate I have used half a wooden clothes peg as a punch. On smaller settings I use a Faro hammerhead attachment on my flexshaft pendant drill.

James

Goldsmith
17-09-2014, 08:57 AM
Pat you could make your existing bench a bit more secure by adding a sheet of 18mm. or thicker plywood sheet across the bench top, this is how I strengthened my workbench. It's looking a bit worn now but you can see where I added a layer of plywood on top of my old bench on this photo.
6609

James

Gemsetterchris
17-09-2014, 10:07 AM
If you can renew, avoid chip:eek:board.
What's probably happening is all your energy pushing bezels is being sucked away by the flexing bench.
That's why your wanting ultra thin metal & filing knife edges..you'll solve all that with a decent solid bench & clamp system.

Patstone
19-09-2014, 02:07 PM
Well finished the ring at least I am not doing any more to it. What do you guys think, constructive critism please. Still think bezel looks "chewed".
It doesnt rock though, absolutely solid. I didnt realise you could hammer things like a bezel, will use that idea again, perhaps with a piece of wood rather than the metal pusher.

6613

Gemsetterchris
19-09-2014, 03:35 PM
It`s not that bad, but you file your knife edge too much..you want abit more thickness.
If you insist on filing that thin, then buff the top a little after just to get it smooth.

enigma
19-09-2014, 04:24 PM
Just wanted to say thank you to James for such a neat demonstration!

Goldsmith
19-09-2014, 05:59 PM
Just wanted to say thank you to James for such a neat demonstration!

Thank you for the nice comment Sarah, I see on your website that you are into making horse jewellery. I have only made one riding based item in my career, it was a dressage whip handle for a Greek racehorse owner. I did make a wax model of a horse head for a Knight chess piece way back in history, but it never got cast.

James

caroleallen
19-09-2014, 06:24 PM
If you can afford it Pat, I'd recommend the benches that George recommended a few weeks ago. http://www.wnealservices.com/acatalog/wns_workbenches.html

I don't have one for myself (yet!) but my girls love them. They like the fact that you can rest your arms on the supports.

Patstone
20-09-2014, 06:26 AM
I love those benches, but how sturdy they are is debatable. I punch out silver discs sometimes and need something strong, or have to go into the other spare bedroom and use the door lintel which is over an interior downstairs wall, so its very sturdy or go in the garage (flying disc never to be found again), saying that I dont do that often. I have lots of space on my bench and it is sufficient for doing normal stuff really. Getting back to Chris's comment about the knife edge, it was only that thin because when I hammered the bezel, not realising that it was so soft, tapped it a bit too hard and left marks, so they had to be filed out. Just looked at the silver that I cut the bezel from, it is fine silver 0.40 thick but half hard. Is that the right stuff to use. I am going to have another attempt at doing one around a different stone today in the hope that practice makes perfect.

Gemsetterchris
20-09-2014, 07:36 AM
Keep at it & you'll be doing perfect bezels eventually.
Keep with one type of metal till you get used to it, they vary abit so jumping about trying different ones doesn't help.

Patstone
20-09-2014, 01:19 PM
Just starting another one !!!!!

Jon
24-09-2014, 02:48 PM
Thanks for the the how to. :). What's the wooden thing and vice called. Do you buy them or make them up yourself?

Goldsmith
24-09-2014, 03:10 PM
Thanks for the the how to. :). What's the wooden thing and vice called. Do you buy them or make them up yourself?

The wooden thing is called a jewellers bench peg; http://www.cooksongold.com/category_select.jsp?query=bench+peg
The vice is called a hand vice; http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-30785-36-Hand-Vice/dp/B0002BUQ24

James

Jon
24-09-2014, 05:23 PM
Thanks James.

camalidesign
24-09-2014, 05:30 PM
I can second Carole's suggestion of one of those benches. I bought one a while ago and it is very good, especially for the price! And I also invested in a Benchmate and it is really, really good. I just need to buy the inside ring holder for it now... I knew I should have got it from the start!

Thanks so much James and also Chris for all the useful tips, I certainly learnt a thing or two! :)

Carin

Gemsetterchris
24-09-2014, 06:21 PM
Only thing with inside ring holders is don't overtighten them as rings can stretch..as I found by accident :D
Then again It maybe useful.

Vos
06-11-2014, 11:50 PM
Firstly, James, thank you for a brilliant description and clarity of pictures. And may I add to the praise for making a 'simple' ring look so beautifully crafted.

Could I also ask about the bench recommendations? I'm assuming people are referring to the jewellers bench at the bottom as the recommendation? I only ask as those rubber wood benches look pretty darn sturdy for the price.

Many thanks

Vos

Goldsmith
07-11-2014, 11:35 AM
Hi Vos, I built my own bench, it was an old 8 ft x 3 ft.engineers work bench with 8" x 2" timber planks on top of angle steel legs, I just added a sheet of 18mm. ply to the top and cut my own bench cut out shape with a jigsaw and made my own bench pin fitting with a sheet of brass screwed over the chiselled out bench pin tail shape. This bench has served me well for 40 years now. If you are looking for a ready made bench then the Emir ones are the best, but expensive.

691869196920

James

Vos
07-11-2014, 11:51 AM
Thank you James, food for thought

Vos

Tabby66
08-11-2014, 09:15 PM
I acquired and adapted my bench(es) from a 40+ year trade jeweller, who has always made his own benches!!

Paul Townsend
29-12-2014, 06:54 AM
Hi James,
What are the metal clips made of that hold the bezel to the back plate when soldering ? are they just steel ?

Nick martin
29-12-2014, 08:04 AM
They're titanium Paul. Ideal as they're pliable, strong, and don't suck too much heat away from the item being soldered.

Paul Townsend
29-12-2014, 08:53 AM
Thanks Nick - where do you get them from ?

Goldsmith
29-12-2014, 08:57 AM
Hi Paul, you can buy the strips ready cut from http://knewconcepts.com/TitaniumClamps.php in the USA, or from Tamizan Savill here in the UK;http://tamizan.co.uk/knew-concept-saws/

Check out this posting; http://www.cooksongold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5928

James

Paul Townsend
31-12-2014, 07:00 AM
Thanks james