Ultrasonic Damanging Jewellery

[Hannah Jackson]

Hello,

Me again! :)

I am having some trouble with my ultrasonic marking my jewellery requiring me to then re-polish.

I have a JPL Ultra 7000 and I use sea clean 2 with this, half a cap full. I am having problems with both the machine and the fluid.

I have narrowed the problem down to find out which is causing the problems, and it turns out they both are.

I tried using the ultrasonic with warm water alone, and it leaves faint white marks near to edges, but only in certain places, the marks are light and can be seen in natural lighting. The marks don't come out with a polishing cloth but if I give it a quick polish with rouge and a buff and the marks come out……….. but then the piece needs cleaning again……… and will then get damaged in the ultrasonic again. The marks are always in different places, but only in 1 small place each time.

I have tried using ultrasonic fluid in warm water in a cup and leaving the piece to soak, and I get white stain patterns on the jewellery which again cannot be removed with a polishing cloth. The marks are very different though.

I put my pieces on their jump ring and chains and suspend it from a pole resting over the top of the machine. I have checked there is nothing bashing in to each other and the piece is not touching anything.

Is it because my ultrasonic is cheap? I would purchase an expensive one if I know this is the solution, but I don't want to spend out hundreds to find I have the same problem :S
The ultrasonic works amazingly if it wasn't for this problem!

Thanks,
Hannah

[caroleallen]

I have exactly the same problem Hannah. In fact, I think my ultrasonic keeps fusing my electricity, so it's had to be scrapped. Mine was the Cooksons economy range and cost something like £150. They don't seem to do the same one now.

My question is, if I go for a more expensive one, will I still have the same problems? I don't want to fork out a lot of money if it's no better than the cheap one.

[Dennis]

Hi both. I don't use ultrasonics, so I cant give an answer, but this company is showing at IJL soon, so you could visit them there, or phone them to discuss you problem.

http://www.jamesproducts.co.uk/ Dennis.

[caroleallen]

Thanks Dennis. I may give them a ring.

[caroleallen]

I'm very tempted though to get a steam cleaner instead. I just can't decide whether the very expensive jewellery ones are that much better than normal household ones.

[Goldsmith]

My Bandelin Sonorex, has served me well for over 25 years now, not cheap but I think you get what you pay for.

James

[caroleallen]

So James, would you say that the more expensive ultrasonics wouldn't cause the problems mentioned above?

[Goldsmith]

So James, would you say that the more expensive ultrasonics wouldn't cause the problems mentioned above?

I have never had problems with marking in my ultrasonic, but please bear in mind that I don't make jewellery so when I am using the ultrasonic there is only a few pieces in it at a time, and I also have a large model that has a decent size interior. I always use the hanging free method on copper wires most times, when I have cleaned multiple tiny pieces that cannot be suspended on wires in the past I used small plastic hanging baskets that I made out of old 35mm. film cannisters.

This is the model I have; http://www.ultrasoniccleaner.co.uk/sonorex-rk100h.html

James

[Rob Taylor]

Hi Hannah

This is the first time we've heard of this problem. I've just asked one of our Jewellers who uses a James ultrasonic and Seaclean liquid and she doesn't get this problem. So I've spoken to James Products and they've not heard of it either, they've asked to following questions however

Which fluid are you using?
How old is it?
How long has it been open?
What alloy are you trying to clean?

rgds
Rob

[caroleallen]

To answer your questions Rob:-

Seaclean
A couple of months
A couple of months
Silver

[caroleallen]

I wish there was such a thing as a Which comparison site for jewellery tools. I'm just at a complete loss as to what to go with - a new and more expensive ultrasonic or a steam cleaner. If I make the wrong choice, it'll be a very expensive mistake.

[Melanie]

I have exactly the same problem and my ultrasonic is gathering dust as having to repolish after cleaning items kind of defeats the object in my eyes...

My model is http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Sonic-3000mx-Ultrasonic-3ltr-Tank-New-Model-prcode-997-1314 and it leaves white etched type marks on my silver, have tried numerous different detergents, all brand new, with and without ammonia, plus boring water (at different temperatures) and I still get the white markings. I also hung the items well apart from each other on wire... if anyone has the answer to this would be very gratefully received... :)

[ps_bond]

This is probably one of the closest things to that.

FWIW, I used one of the smaller James ultrasonics for a couple of years before going the route of the Elma (which, after the DOA issue has worked flawlessly). I know a few jewellers use cappuccino machines in lieu of a steamer; they're not really designed for heavy use, but you'd get away with it for a while.

[Aurarius]

Do steamers and ultrasonics in fact occupy the same niche in jewelry making? I've seen videos of people using steam cleaners and they always use them on an item when they've just taken it out of the ultrasonic, not instead of an ultrasonic. I know there are certain stones that can't safely be put in an ultrasonic, but can a steam cleaner ever replicate or get close to a good ultrasonic's cleaning power?

[Dennis]

Most makers are concerned with removing polishing compounds, so steam would do that. Of course, tumbling in a strong soapy solution would do much the same thing.

However on used jewellery, you are trying to remove sweat, dirt and flakes of skin, so ultrasonics would be more appropriate.

There is one caveat though: the dirt might be holding the stones in place, so it is wise to have the piece in a sieve or bag to catch them. Dennis

[caroleallen]

I only need it for removing polishing compound. Peter's idea of using a cappuccino maker has opened a whole other can of worms. ......... and around I go again!

[Tabby66]

A steam cleaner is fabulous on items containing stones that cannot tolerate an ultrasonic,...such as opals or emeralds......as Dennis says they remove grime well too, though for items that can go in an ultrasonic, you can use that instead.....I have access to a professional steam cleaner.....and one is on my wish list for the long term!!!.....I am currently test driving my hand held steam cleaner which I use in the bathroom.....not a bad stand in so far!!

[caroleallen]

Ah Jill, at last someone who's used a steam cleaner. Which do you prefer, steam or ultrasonic?

[Aurarius]

I wish there was such a thing as a Which comparison site for jewellery tools.
Yes, it would save a lot of uncertainty and cut down on purchases you regret.

If the jewelry trade is anything like the bookbinding trade, though, the way I see it is that the reason we don't get Which-type reviews everywhere is that the heaviest users of jewelry tools and machinery are bench employees who, if they find out a piece of equipment is no good, are not hit in the pocket personally, but simply tell their boss the thing is no good, and then sooner or later it gets replaced with something better (or worse). What they don't do, or have any incentive to do generally, is tell the rest of the world how good or bad something is. The incentive to tell the world is not there firstly because they've not been hit in the pocket by the purchase, secondly because telling the world will only let their trade competitors benefit from their mistake (this is more the boss's incentive), and thirdly because a lot of employees in all sorts of trades may be very proficient at what they do but they aren't often so passionate about it as a discipline that they want to talk about it during their time off.

So, up to a point, most of us have to go shopping with a blindfold on because too few people in the trade broadcast or want to broadcast their experience, whether it's good or bad, of particular brands or models of tools and equipment.

[Dennis]

Well Which? magazine costs about £25 a quarter now, for a fairly healthy circulation. Can you imagine how much a small circulation Jewellers research group would need to charge?.

It would need £££ worth of lab testing equipment alone. Add to that qualified personnel and the covert purchase of test pieces, legal insurance, etc.

Testimonials alone would not do,as witnessed by the range of advice found here. Dennis.

[trialuser]

I have got a vax s4 (http://www.sonicdirect.co.uk/Steam-Cleaners/Vax-S4-GM-S4-GRIME-MASTER-Handheld-Steam-Cleaner?utm_source=googlemerchant&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googlemerchant&gclid=CLmK-bCWpsACFSKWtAodgUQAhg). It's not meant for jewellery, it's just a steam generator for cleaning tiles etc, sit it on the worktop and press the button and a decent jet of stream squirts out.
It seems to displace crud quite well.
I think it's about 30 odd quid now, there are cheaper ones but I thought it worth a couple of quid more for the vax name and 2 year warranty.
I have a mid/cheap range ultrasonic and I just use washing up liquid and drop stuff in the basket, I don't notice any odd marks.
But, I probably produce in a year what you make in a day.

[ps_bond]

Testimonials alone would not do,as witnessed by the range of advice found here.

I stopped my Which subscription a while back primarily because I felt that the tech advice was invariably subjective, misleading and in several cases completely wrong. Similarly, I've seen a few product reviews that focus less on how well (or not) the product does the job and more on what it's made of.

As for using steam cleaners - I have, during the course with Jura; faster and less cleanup than an ultrasonic although if you're blasting lemel out of nooks & crannies you might want to think about where it ends up. I wouldn't risk emeralds, pearls or opals (amongst others) in a steam cleaner myself - they still get hot and for me it doesn't feel worth the risk. I did have a disagreement with a silversmith a while back about putting emeralds in an ultrasonic - he said it was perfectly OK, I said I wasn't prepared to risk it. "Well, have you ever broken one in an ultrasonic?" - no, because I wasn't prepared to risk it...

http://www.studleysjewellers.co.uk/gemstone-guide/ has a bit of a list of what cleaning is & isn't sensible.

[caroleallen]

I quite fancy a steam cleaner for my bathroom, so I may just get one of those Vax ones and see how it goes. I suspect it'll need re-filling all day though, so it may slow us down.

[Tabby66]

I have tried a couple of both ultrasonics and steam cleaners, purpose built for the jewellery trade and general purpose substitutes......

unheated small ultrasonic.........not worth the money, lots of faff in comparison to heated unit....
heated purpose built and general purpose unit......both good,.....to my mind the 'detergent' used, combined with the heat makes most difference (ammonia based solution, which I know many prefer not to use is best, and certainly most efficient if making a reasonable amount of work,....I'd recommend this solution...http://www.eurofindings.com/Product/13669/TUS5-Walkers-Ultrasonic-Solution-Concentrated-Cleaner

I have a 1litre professional/purpose made heated ultrasonic

Steam cleaners are great, but more time consuming, I would use an ultrasonic for anything I could and any missed bits, for instance in corners or intricate saw piercing, I would use the steam cleaner,.....I've not had any problems with opals, pearls or emeralds in either type of steam cleaner, Peter,.....I think the trick is not to use a continuous jet of steam, but shorter bursts, ensuring that the piece isn't over heated.....

I have a hand held Vax.....was about £20, works reasonably well, and is better than nothing.... but I also have access to something similar to this http://www.hswalsh.com/product/eitan-steam-cleaner-ts29.....well, that's an awful lot of money!!!!!!....but worth every penny if a0 you have the money, and b)you are making a lot of work with precious gemstones which can not go in the ultrasonic , or lots of work which has lots of nooks and crannies, blasts it out in seconds.....

[caroleallen]

Now I'm thinking I may get an Elma and cross my fingers that it's better than the one that I've been using. I was never very happy with it as it was obviously Chinese, as the instructions were very badly translated. It was also very noisy and always set my teeth on edge. It was a heated one and I think it cost about £150. I see Cooksons don't sell it any more. Note to self - it's not worth buying value when it comes to jewellery equipment.

[Tabby66]

I don't think it is either Carole. Buy the best you can afford......

[ShinyLauren]

I have exactly the same problem Hannah. In fact, I think my ultrasonic keeps fusing my electricity, so it's had to be scrapped. Mine was the Cooksons economy range and cost something like £150. They don't seem to do the same one now.

My question is, if I go for a more expensive one, will I still have the same problems? I don't want to fork out a lot of money if it's no better than the cheap one.

I also get the white marks on my jewellery after putting in the ultrasonic. I rarely use mine any more, because the marks have to be polished out again, thus rendering putting them in the ultrasonic in the first place entirel pointless. I have this one: http://www.hswalsh.com/product/digital-heated-ultrasonic-cleaner-capacity-175-litres-hu151 and have tried various cleaning fluids with it.

[caroleallen]

That one looks very similar to my old one Lauren.

I have today, taken delivery of a fab spanking new Elma one and I can't believe how quiet it is. The old one always set my teeth on edge. So far I haven't noticed the white marks yet, so fingers crossed that I've solved the problem.

[andrew_berry]

Steamer or ultrasonic?

You have to have both!

We have even used our steamer to make frothy coffees too, when we had it new.

There is often dirt left behind stones even with the ultrasonic, thats where a steamer comes in so handy.

Never had a problem with white marks. i can only assume these are caused by 'something' rubbing against the surface, bubbles perhaps?

We have always bought expensive ultrasonics £500+ and have never had a problem. We don't use environmental friendly products either, sorry. Stick with the proven products and established brands such as Elma etc. Some of the new brands are not as good and neither are the solutions.

Out current ultrasonic has been with us for over 18 years, on every day, no problems. Twin transducer? I think. Cleaned out every couple of weeks despite the colour of the solution. Not a good idea I know.

Andrew

[ps_bond]

We don't use environmental friendly products either, sorry. Stick with the proven products and established brands such as Elma etc. Some of the new brands are not as good and neither are the solutions.

Echoes of my comment earlier - I'm more interested in whether the stuff works than what it's made of!

[Dennis]

Echoes of my comment earlier - I'm more interested in whether the stuff works than what it's made of!

Many of us echo that, but of course it is what motivates us in our small way, and industry in a larger way to pollute the planet. What of the future?

Let our grandchildren and their children deal with insufferable climate change, or emigrate to another planet. Or die in a hostile environment. Dennis

[ps_bond]

Not really; the risks are generally well known and can be managed appropriately. Like not tipping stuff down the sink, for example; using fume & dust extraction where needed and so on.

Mercury's perfectly safe to use with the right kit - I don't have the right kit so I don't use it. Citric acid is often touted as a "safe" pickle; once it is loaded with copper it is toxic and needs to be treated as any other pickle.

[Aurarius]

I'm all for environmentally friendly products, but one problem with them is that often they're only environmentally friendly in a very limited sense; all the tag generally means is that a product has satisfied some minimum environmental manufacturing standard, which manufacturers are generally happy to comply with on the basis that it encourages conscience-driven consumers to choose their product over supposedly environmentally unfriendly alternatives.
These days one of the most prevalent environmentally unfriendly manufacturing practices is using large quantities of precious resources to make products (ultrasonics included) that need to be binned after a year or two because they were never fit for purpose to begin with. Products that last for years and give good service avoid this fault at least.

[Tabby66]

You might think that milk is a fairly harmless product and one that is environmentally safe,......that is unless there is a spillage of a transport lorry for instance and it leaks into a canal/river, the reduced oxygen levels caused because it is readily biodegradable cause deoxygenation.....major fish kill results.......it is about handling and disposing of products used in the proper and a responsible way, surely??

[Dennis]

If you do have toxic waste here in Central London, you have to drive miles to dispose of it. What do you all do?

By the way Jill, Clare Smyth who has just been singled out as being the perfect chef, says that her customers prefer something simple like plaice braised in milk. Dennis

[caroleallen]

I can't imagine cleaning fluid would be that toxic. Mine all goes into a soak away but I guess it could eventually get into the water system.

[caroleallen]

Back to this old chestnut I'm afraid.

My Elna ultrasonic is not as great as I first thought. I have it on the highest temperature and it's set for 10 minutes at a time yet it doesn't really get my pieces clean and everything still has to be finished off with a toothbrush. Things come out with a film on them which comes off after a lot of rubbing with a silver cloth. I'm using Seaclean.

It's all rather defeating the object as it's supposed to be a quicker way to clean up after polishing. I'm beginning to wonder whether I should have gone down the steam cleaner route after all.

[ps_bond]

Are you in a hard water area?

[caroleallen]

No Peter, our water is classed as moderately soft.

[ps_bond]

OK, that rules that one out then! I do see occasional white deposits if I don't rinse and dry pieces thoroughly; I'm in an area where the water feels like it is 50% chalk some days... The other thought is if the u/s solution is leaving deposits?

[caroleallen]

What solution would you recommend?

[Tabby66]

So long as you're not averse to using ammonia Carole, this stuff is excellent.....http://www.eurofindings.com/Product/13669/TUS5-Walkers-Ultrasonic-Solution-Ammoniated, ......I then rinse in clean water and drop in the drier http://www.suttontools.co.uk/heated-sawdust-dryer.html ......I very rarely get any marking (which I have had in the past with the same ultrasonic), if I do get marking, literally a gentle wipe with a cloth and it's gone.

[caroleallen]

Thank you Jill. I'll try that.

[ps_bond]

The one I'm currently working through is a non-ammonia one; gut feel is that ammonia-based ones do a better job from limited experience with them.

[FineJewelleryandArt]

I am still in the process of determining what tools and equipment is worth having and bought a rather cheap sonic cleaner. I use bottled water, fairy and ammonia mix and it works rather well.

[FineJewelleryandArt]

... are worth having. Sorry, English is my second language and I always get the is/are bit wrong.

[Aurarius]

I'd get in touch with Elma's Technical Support if I were you, Carole, and give them details of the problem. I'm sure they'll be able and willing to shed some light on it.

[ps_bond]

... are worth having. Sorry, English is my second language and I always get the is/are bit wrong.

So do a lot of people who would claim it's their first language.

[caroleallen]

Well I can report that the cleaning solution that Jill recommended works brilliantly. No more film on my silver and everything super shiny and clean. The ammonia stinks a bit but is OK if you keep the lid on the ultrasonic. Ammonia is the way to go!

[ps_bond]

I might switch to that, although I need to finish off the stuff I've got at the moment first. Seems to be fractionally cheaper from Walkers than Eurofindings although the shipping from Walkers is quite high.

[caroleallen]

I've got a gallon of the Seaclean stuff which will be disposed of today. I know it's wrong, but if it doesn't work it's just taking up space.

[Petal]

Well I can report that the cleaning solution that Jill recommended works brilliantly. No more film on my silver and everything super shiny and clean. The ammonia stinks a bit but is OK if you keep the lid on the ultrasonic. Ammonia is the way to go!

Could I use that in my cheapy ultrasonic...?

[ps_bond]

I've got a gallon of the Seaclean stuff which will be disposed of today. I know it's wrong, but if it doesn't work it's just taking up space.

I know what you mean - the stuff I've got works but there's room for improvement. I'll need to clean more stuff, clearly.
Maybe the teaspoons need a going over?

Remember to settle out the old contents from the ultrasonic!

[Gemsetterchris]

I just read somewhere that certain tapwater elements can be problematic.

[ps_bond]

I think I'm seeing limescale deposits on mine if I don't dry it properly; I probably ought to switch to using deionised water and see whether that improves things. I use enough of the stuff cleaning metal for mokume as it is.
Any others noted? Chlorine isn't a great mix generally.

[Gemsetterchris]

No more film on my silver

I notice some solutions leave things abit slimy, but I generally dump things in a small tub of sawdust to dry off without handling anything.
I keep stuff on the hook that it dangled in the sonic with..otherwise it can be an effort to track small things down even in a small tub.

[caroleallen]

Could I use that in my cheapy ultrasonic...?

Worth a try Jules.

[allyclaret]

Hi Carole

I've had a bit of an ultrasonic journey over the past few years! I think I've tried 4 smaller machines. Earlier this year I was lucy enough to buy a second hand huge 12 litre ultrasonic cleaner. I am convinced that the size of the machine is directly related to the cleaning efficiency. I have been using Seaclean and it takes 30 seconds to 1 minute to clean most items after polishing. As with all of the ultrasonic cleaners and cleaning fluids that I have tried in the past, if you leave silver in the solution for too long that's when you can get the white patches on the silver.

Once cleaned in the ultrasonic, as there's still a residue of chemical on the jewellery (ie the cleaning fluid), so to reduce tarnishing I now steam clean everything, let the item dry and then bag it up. It should stay clean and tarnish free for ages (or until someone puts their oily paws all over it!). I wouldn't use the steam cleaner without the ultrasonic though - it's not a replacement.

Hope this helps :)
Ally

[caroleallen]

Thanks Ally. What steam cleaner have you got?

[allyclaret]

The Eitan one from Walsh
https://www.hswalsh.com/product/eitan-steam-cleaner-ts30

They do a smaller one but you will be forever refilling it and you have to wait for it to cool before you can fill it.

[allyclaret]

I keep the steam cleaner in a separate room as it's a scary bit of kit and will cause damp. Needs to be serviced annually - go to your local garage and find out who they use to service their compressors. They should be able to do the cleaner too :)

[caroleallen]

Thanks Ally. I'm happy with my ultrasonic now that I've found the right solution but I may think about getting a steam cleaner.

[Unhindered]

Looking at elma's as they are recommended on here, which models do you have? Or if anyone recommends any others I'm open to browsing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[moletteuk]

I bought a chinese one from amazon last month and it seems fine, it was this one:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00M52ZVM8?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

It's listed as a Floureon 2l heated one, but when it came it's badged as GT Sonic, it is quite a solid piece of kit, all stainless steel, it makes a mess of a piece of tinfoil which seems to be the standard effectiveness test. It's a chinese seller, but Amazon gives guarantees about returns from 3rd party sellers and it was despatched from a uk warehouse, and when I emailed them they replied in legible english, so it's been hassle free for me so far.

[Hannah Jackson]

Hiya,

Thanks for the replys everyone, I have now sorted the problem thanks to the amonia solution, and a different ultrasonic suggestions on here.

Just a quick update for everyone else having this problem. It was the ultrasonic causing the marks and Sea Clean made it worse. I even tried heating distilled water in a pan and mixing it with the sea clean incase it was a lack of heat or water softner that caused a problem, but using it in the ultrasonic still marked the silver.

I bought a new ultrasonic from Cookson Gold and this works far better! I now dip the pieces in the ultrasonic for a few seconds at a time and use an ammonia based solution, this seems to work perfectly now (touch wood!).

It is this one that works well for me - www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Economy-Ultrasonic-2-Litre-With----Basket-prcode-997-1316

Hannah x

P.s I even bought a cheap chinese £40 one from ebay to give that a go, it worked perfectly but broke after 3 months, so it is always best to get one with a warranty.

[Patstone]

Why do people use ultrasonic cleaners. What does it do that a tumbler doesn't. All of my stuff is put in a tumbler for a final polish, it comes up beautiful. It gets a quick once over with a cloth and that's it.

[ps_bond]

Pat - it's been said time and again: Ultrasonic cleaners DO NOT POLISH. They are for cleaning polish and other muck off and are no more comparable to a barrel polisher than a saw is to a pair of snipe nose pliers.

[Dan_]

Has anyone used the ammonia based fluid on an item that has rouge on it after being polished and that item of jewellery has some rhodium plating on it?

[china]

I believe it is not recommend to use ammonia on rhodium plate

[Dennis]

You dont really need more than hand hot water, washing up liquid, and a soft artists brush for this. Dennis.

[J Allison]

I bought a chinese one from amazon last month and it seems fine, it was this one:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00M52ZVM8?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

It's listed as a Floureon 2l heated one, but when it came it's badged as GT Sonic, it is quite a solid piece of kit, all stainless steel, it makes a mess of a piece of tinfoil which seems to be the standard effectiveness test. It's a chinese seller, but Amazon gives guarantees about returns from 3rd party sellers and it was despatched from a uk warehouse, and when I emailed them they replied in legible english, so it's been hassle free for me so far.

I have the same one and I still get the white marks , I mainly use mine as a hot water tank with the solution and a toothbrush now

[CJ57]

I’ve never had a commercial one as I don’t make in large amounts.
I still use hot water washing up liquid and a toothbrush as we did when I trained. Have never had any problems with marks doing it by hand so if time is a factor and you’re having to repolish and then reclean that seems counter productive. The only time I found a cheap one useful was for getting the compounds out of chains. Mine died more than a year ago and I’ve never replaced it