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medusa
13-03-2014, 06:40 PM
… you can buy joint tube which is 4.75mm diameter, but it seems almost futile to search for joint files (or chenier or parallel round files) in the same size to make a seat for the tube. The closest are round files that are 3/16" which is slightly too large. Would a better way to approach it be to get to 4mm and then use a twist drill as a kind of hand file?

Or am I being too OCD about it?

CJ57
13-03-2014, 08:33 PM
Is there not a round needle file in your set, I've picked up various thicknesses over the years, or there is a needle file that is rectangular but only has the file on the outside edges, that's good for grooves

Dennis
13-03-2014, 10:54 PM
Using this conversion Liz there is no practical difference: http://www.metric-conversions.org/length/inches-to-millimeters.htm.

You would be best though to use a saw cut, a scorer, and/or triangular/square files to start, because round files wander and tend to enlarge your groove. Dennis.

CJ57
13-03-2014, 11:36 PM
There is a technique to using round needle files I find and it you start the cut with the sharpest end and then work into it further up the file that stops it from wandering. I do a lot of carving with a round file.

medusa
14-03-2014, 02:55 PM
Is there not a round needle file in your set, I've picked up various thicknesses over the years, or there is a needle file that is rectangular but only has the file on the outside edges, that's good for grooves

nothing that big. I clearly need to spend money on more tools. Oh noes! :D


Using this conversion Liz there is no practical difference: http://www.metric-conversions.org/length/inches-to-millimeters.htm.

You would be best though to use a saw cut, a scorer, and/or triangular/square files to start, because round files wander and tend to enlarge your groove. Dennis.


There is a technique to using round needle files I find and it you start the cut with the sharpest end and then work into it further up the file that stops it from wandering. I do a lot of carving with a round file.

ahh, ok both, that is really good advice. I'm working up to it!

CJ57
14-03-2014, 03:38 PM
Unfortunately that file that I mentioned rectangular with smooth front and back and only file along the outside edges , I know very technical! Anyway it doesn't seem to be available anywhere which is a shame because it's great for straight channels. It either came in my set 30 years ago or I inherited it from a friend who was a machinist .

medusa
14-03-2014, 04:23 PM
huh, yep, just been trying to get ~any~ decent sized, decent file and can I? Well yes, I can get one from Gesswein for $48. Why it costs $25 to send a file to the UK is beyond me. You would think that a swiss company would make their products more available in the UK.

CJ57
14-03-2014, 04:34 PM
I'm wondering if you would find differently sized needle files from engineering companies. I inherited. Lot of useless precision tools and some of the needle files are obviously quite different but also Swiss made. I do wish we didn't have to keep on searching for stuff in the US, surely there is a big enough market here!

medusa
14-03-2014, 04:40 PM
i've tried the engineering companies. Just signed up to see if ottofrei has more reasonable shipping...

CJ57
14-03-2014, 04:53 PM
I found this model making tool company which has loads and I wondered if the broaches might be useful as they are for clockmakers and therefore straight and round rather than tapered. Had a closer look at mine and it's a Stubbs which is a British make.
http://www.squirestools.com/12-06a.pdf

medusa
14-03-2014, 05:15 PM
oh! tool porn! I've actually just bought from OttoFrei. they haven't charged me any shipping. yet. be amazing if it's free but doubt it!

I find broachers a bit alarming. I'm so concerned to make sure I get a good seam between the hinge tube and the rest of it, I don't want to make it too big.

CJ57
14-03-2014, 05:18 PM
Out of interest for myself, I sent them a message on their FB page to see what they might suggest as they look like one of those old fashioned companies that know all about every tool they have. I'll see if they reply.

surfergirl
14-03-2014, 05:55 PM
Out of interest for myself, I sent them a message on their FB page to see what they might suggest as they look like one of those old fashioned companies that know all about every tool they have. I'll see if they reply.

Awaiting the response :) Thanks
(Love a bit of tool porn).

Goldsmith
14-03-2014, 06:19 PM
Unfortunately that file that I mentioned rectangular with smooth front and back and only file along the outside edges , I know very technical! Anyway it doesn't seem to be available anywhere which is a shame because it's great for straight channels. It either came in my set 30 years ago or I inherited it from a friend who was a machinist .

Caroline, those files are called gapping files, I have a few but I prefer the parallel joint files. Euro Mounts stock some sizes of these gapping and parallel files, but only up to 2mm. I think. http://www.eurofindings.com/Tools#2&Stage=PrdList&Cat02=77&Cat03=80

I bought my stock of joint files from a trade show in Basel many years ago. Just for the record when I am making hinge joints, I start my tube grooves by cutting a deep line first with a graver, then I increase the groove width and depth by cutting with a half round scorper before finishing with a joint file.

I have posted this before on another thread, but it shows a type of simple hinge I made.

579457955796

James

CJ57
14-03-2014, 07:10 PM
Thanks James, always helpful to have a name for a tool and also where to find them. Such a lovely joint, so crisp, back to the drawing board for my next one!

medusa
16-03-2014, 09:16 AM
Yup, I've searched for gapping files as well. Basically I went through my new stash of books to find all the different names for the tools to use. I'm not quite sure why I always take the hardest route and pick the trickiest jobs. Its a kind of crafting masochism I think! But I think I'll ultimately benefit from it.

And otto frei still haven't cancelled my order or asked me to pay postage. . .

medusa
17-03-2014, 06:40 PM
adding on: OF have shipped my order and I eventually contacted them to ask about the shipping. Can't be often people contact a company wanting to pay more, but hey ho!

It seems I will at some point in the future get a shipping invoice for $7. Gesswein were going to charge me something like $25 for the same thing, so I think it's safe to say OF will become my go-to US supplier.

medusa
22-03-2014, 01:44 PM
and my file has just turned up! It's loooooovely! :)

Goldsmith
22-03-2014, 02:01 PM
Sounds like someone has a thing about files, I used to stock up on tools when I visited Baselworld; http://www.baselworld.com/ if you have never been the tool hall is something that you will love. Luckily for me one of my customers exhibited some of my work on their stand back in the late 1980s, so visiting this fair was a reasonable business expense against taxes for me. I think Andrew Berry will be there this year, on the Durston stand.

James

caroleallen
22-03-2014, 04:30 PM
Ooh, Baselworld sounds fab - I love Switzerland and I could set it against tax too. Maybe next year.

medusa
22-03-2014, 09:54 PM
Sounds like someone has a thing about files,
James

I never used to, but since actually getting hold of some really nice quality ones, I am feeling quite seduced. I was also really impressed with how good Otto Frei were. I will use them again.

Patstone
24-03-2014, 07:12 AM
Just out of interest, if you were to finish the locket pictured to enable photographs etc to be put inside, at what stage would you put in the rim, and would you put it on the inside of the bowl, or on the top rim. I finished the one I started making four years ago, but it isnt very good, at least the hinge is ok, but I will have a "go" at making another one sometime.



Caroline, those files are called gapping files, I have a few but I prefer the parallel joint files. Euro Mounts stock some sizes of these gapping and parallel files, but only up to 2mm. I think. http://www.eurofindings.com/Tools#2&Stage=PrdList&Cat02=77&Cat03=80

I bought my stock of joint files from a trade show in Basel many years ago. Just for the record when I am making hinge joints, I start my tube grooves by cutting a deep line first with a graver, then I increase the groove width and depth by cutting with a half round scorper before finishing with a joint file.

I have posted this before on another thread, but it shows a type of simple hinge I made.

579457955796

James

Goldsmith
24-03-2014, 08:25 AM
Just out of interest, if you were to finish the locket pictured to enable photographs etc to be put inside, at what stage would you put in the rim, and would you put it on the inside of the bowl, or on the top rim. I finished the one I started making four years ago, but it isnt very good, at least the hinge is ok, but I will have a "go" at making another one sometime.

If I was making a locket for photos, I would follow this process;
1-shape each half of the locket from sheet. 2- solder a rim inside each half. 3- file the grooves for the joint tube. 4-solder the joint tubes in place. 5- make bezels that fit inside the locket half rims. 6- solder faceplates to each bezel, slightly wider than the bezel. 7-pierce the interior of the faceplate that is soldered on each bezel. 8- acquire some glasses that fit inside each bezel, (watch glasses are good if the bezel is round) if the shape is not round, I buy the closest size watch glass and use my Cab machine to grind the glass to shape.
I hope this all makes sense, if not let me know and I will draw some sketches to post.

James

caroleallen
24-03-2014, 08:45 AM
Not sure I follow the bit about the bezels and watch glasses. Does that mean the photo has to be inserted before the glass is put in?

caroleallen
24-03-2014, 09:09 AM
Ah, I think I've worked it out now. The bezels just slide into the locket.

I don't think may people use glass these days now that we can laminate photos.

Patstone
24-03-2014, 09:49 AM
understood until faceplates were mentioned, not sure what they are. One the one I made, my tutor (I should say useless tutor) told me to solder a flattened piece of wire around the rim of the dish on the top and she didnt know how to do the hinge. Thanks to your drawings on making a hinge, I have done that bit. I wanted a fairly simple one at the time because it was when I first started but I am probably capable of making something a bit more advanced now. Says she hoping !!!!!!!

caroleallen
24-03-2014, 10:01 AM
Hinges are scary but I've done a few now and they do get easier. I think the secret is to just go for it and if it goes wrong, put it down to experience.

Goldsmith
24-03-2014, 01:22 PM
Here is a simple sketch of what I was trying to explain Pat, I hope it makes sense, obviously the size and shapes will depend on the original locket.

James

5855

Goldsmith
24-03-2014, 01:26 PM
These photo frames are bezel and faceplate types with fitted glasses.

5856

James

Patstone
24-03-2014, 04:21 PM
I don't want to add anything to keep photos in really, just wanted to know if what I had done is correct, or should it be done a different way.

5858


These photo frames are bezel and faceplate types with fitted glasses.

5856

James

Goldsmith
24-03-2014, 04:39 PM
I don't want to add anything to keep photos in really, just wanted to know if what I had done is correct, or should it be done a different way.

5858

I would suggest that the thickening wire on the interior should be soldered in place before soldering the hinge/joint tubes in place. And using a pair of steel dividers for marking would make it easier to obtain an even width on the interior wires if they are made from sheet and also useful when positioning the joint tubes evenly. t If you don't have any dividers, I use Moore & Wright ones and there are lots available cheaply on eBay; http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/moore-wright-dividers

James

Patstone
24-03-2014, 05:13 PM
I have got dividers now, but didn't have when I made it. Presumably it is better to make the rim out of sheet rather than wire. Should it be soldered inside the rim or on the top.

Goldsmith
24-03-2014, 06:16 PM
I have got dividers now, but didn't have when I made it. Presumably it is better to make the rim out of sheet rather than wire. Should it be soldered inside the rim or on the top.

If making this item in silver I would make the rims from sheet, If you want a finish without any visible solder lines on the outside then solder the rims inside, but they do look OK if you solder the rims on the top edges when the rims are left proud around the outside of the locket as part of the design. If making the item in gold I would use wires for the rims to cut down on expense.

James

Patstone
24-03-2014, 09:41 PM
Thank you James, I thought it would be better in sheet, I will make another one soon.