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medusa
24-02-2014, 06:15 PM
I have in the dim recesses of my mind the idea that if you post out jewellery RM will only pay out for the cost of materials and not the actual cost of the item. Was I dreaming this or has anybody actually been in the situation where they have proof of posting and proof of how much the customer paid for a specific item but RM refuse to pay up?

ETA: to clarify, I'm talking about when something actually gets lost in the post.

Michael_D
24-02-2014, 06:20 PM
Your recollection is correct. Furthermore, they want original receipts, you can't claim for at least 30 working days and if they pay out it won't be for three months... So next tone the counter assistant asks how much you item is worth. Ask them if they mean how much you sold it for or how much the materials to make it cost?


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metalsmith
24-02-2014, 07:12 PM
Your recollection is correct. Furthermore, they want original receipts, you can't claim for at least 30 working days and if they pay out it won't be for three months... So next tone the counter assistant asks how much you item is worth. Ask them if they mean how much you sold it for or how much the materials to make it cost?

Sorry but (no offence) that has to be cobblers. I have not had reason to claim, but had someone strike up a claim (as the seller) on a £200 ebay item. I doubt very much that they wrote to the factory asking how much the materials were worth. As per a co-existing thread on here somewhere regarding posting to Oz jewellery is permitted import since it is not (just) bullion.

Michael_D
24-02-2014, 07:39 PM
eBay is a different matter. I have been sending my sold jewellery items through the post for a number of years now, I don't sell though eBay, but use other web sites. If you an item
Is lost, the post office will only pay the sellers original purchase price. Next time you go the the post office ask for a claim form. On it you will see the example for the sale of a pair of jeans, the seller is only offered the wholesale price and NOT the retail price that they sold it for.
I'm sorry but invoice has to be supplied for original purchase price. I know because I sold a ring for £300, it got list in the US, and the Post office are still arguing that they will only pay the £75 I paid for it at auction. Read the claim form.


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pearlescence
25-02-2014, 07:55 AM
Nope, they don't pay anything at all on jewellery. And even on special delivery they pay out only wholesale not your retail and only grudgingly at that. I only shut them up by sending invoices written in Manderin and a copy of the receipt for the plane ticket
Don't waste your money on signed for, by the way. it does NOT give you any insurance for jewellery.
I only use them for under £50 and accept that some will go astray.

Michael_D
25-02-2014, 12:50 PM
Thank you pearlesence


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medusa
25-02-2014, 08:04 PM
Your recollection is correct. Furthermore, they want original receipts, you can't claim for at least 30 working days and if they pay out it won't be for three months... So next tone the counter assistant asks how much you item is worth. Ask them if they mean how much you sold it for or how much the materials to make it cost?

well I say how much insurance I want on the package so is that not how much I think it's worth?


eBay is a different matter. I have been sending my sold jewellery items through the post for a number of years now, I don't sell though eBay, but use other web sites. If you an item
Is lost, the post office will only pay the sellers original purchase price. Next time you go the the post office ask for a claim form. On it you will see the example for the sale of a pair of jeans, the seller is only offered the wholesale price and NOT the retail price that they sold it for.
I'm sorry but invoice has to be supplied for original purchase price. I know because I sold a ring for £300, it got list in the US, and the Post office are still arguing that they will only pay the £75 I paid for it at auction. Read the claim form.


But I wasn't selling a pair of jeans. I was selling a £400 bangle. which I made. So there that was the retail price, just the price on the paypal invoice.


Nope, they don't pay anything at all on jewellery. And even on special delivery they pay out only wholesale not your retail and only grudgingly at that. I only shut them up by sending invoices written in Manderin and a copy of the receipt for the plane ticket
Don't waste your money on signed for, by the way. it does NOT give you any insurance for jewellery.
I only use them for under £50 and accept that some will go astray.

I actually paid for International signed for to Norway. How do they determine the wholesale price given it was a custom sized bespoke item? Interesting that you say UK signed for doesn't give any insurance on jewellery. would that not contravene trades descriptions? what about using other postal services?

Michael_D
25-02-2014, 08:40 PM
Ok it goes like this..
You arrive at the counter and post your item. Filling in customs docs etc. the assistant asks you how much it is worth. You say £400. Receipt sad insurance up to £500.

It doesn't arrive. You go to post office and ask for a claim form. On it it says original value only.. What you purchased it for and a copy of receipt. Not what you sold it for. You say, but I made it. It is bespoke. They say receipt for materials you used to make it. Be it gold or jeans, they will only refund original cost and not what it was sold for. No receipt no payout. Simple and bloody unfair. I suggest anyone posting valuable should ask for a claim firm first and read it.
For me.. I loose about 2% is sold items on Royal Mail international. I insure up to the cost I paid for the item, and take the hit. Signed for and tracking just helps me see what's going on and gives the customer some assurance.

RM international is about £12 per package I send. Usual value £150. Purchase price £70. So it's the way I do it. There are loads if other carriers FEDEX etc... But too expensive.




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Michael_D
25-02-2014, 08:41 PM
Sorry about typos... Big fingers little phone :)


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Aurarius
25-02-2014, 08:57 PM
I would never send anything I'd put a lot of work into by Royal Mail and expect to get adequately compensated if it was lost. A friend of mine once sent me an artefact that he'd worked on for about 60 hours, though the materials weren't very valuable. He sent it Recorded delivery with what he thought was adequate insurance. It never arrived, and the Post Office would only give him a few stamps as compensation. He couldn't prove it had any value as he'd made it himself. The Post Office will wriggle out of anything.

Michael_D
25-02-2014, 11:00 PM
There you go then. If it's really worth something send it by a carrier who will accept an agreed value....

I did notice that if the per chaser makes the claim it may be covered as that's what they purchased it for. eBay is different as the Royal Mail claim form has a desperate box for that. I am told but cannot say for certain, the sender gets full sold value as compensation is they sold on eBay through PayPal.


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pearlescence
27-02-2014, 07:06 AM
Suggest you check the RM small print. Only material costs which you spent will be reimbursed. They sell the retail value insurance, of course they do, but pay the wholesale minus labour and profit. Do try complaining.
UK signed for just gets a signature to say something arrived. It carries no insurance beyond that of the ordinary mail and that insurance does not cover jewellery type items. Again, they sell you....
No point arguing with us. We are not RM

ps_bond
27-02-2014, 09:25 AM
As I think I've mentioned elsewhere, I know a knifemaker who was bitten by this. 2 £600-£700 knives went missing with RM; they were adamant they'd only pay materials costs. He fought them tooth and nail and *finally* managed to get full cost reimbursed, but it took him about 8 months. Managing that I would expect to be the exception, not the rule.

medusa
27-02-2014, 10:39 AM
This is all very depressing. Does anyone have a recommendation for an alternative international carrier which does give real insurance?

Ebo Von Gaz
27-02-2014, 10:50 AM
Does this apply to the RM Special Delivery service too?

ps_bond
27-02-2014, 11:01 AM
The one I described *was* RMSD.

metalsmith
27-02-2014, 12:12 PM
Having experienced this from the end of being the purchaser I know that it is only the seller (really the poster - as they paid for the service) that has a contract with RM.
I note that in one (perhaps just an ) example 'the seller is only offered the wholesale price and NOT the retail price' for the pair of jeans. I note that they weren't offered the price of a bale of cotton. I'm not trying to wind folk up here, but yes I am being devil's advocate. I guess it doesn't matter what technical twists and turns are put in if the bottom line is that you won't get paid out the true value of the article. Basically if they do not 'deliver' (pun intended) what you expect of the service - even if the small print does allow them to wiggle out - then there is no need for that service. It is not fit for purpose.

Alternatives ..?

surfergirl
27-02-2014, 12:18 PM
Sending my last packet to the LAO prompted me to write to RM about this very topic only recently. I’ve copied and pasted the email exchange below. Sorry about the length, but I thought it might be useful. Mods – please feel free to edit or delete if not appropriate.


Dear Royal Mail

I would like to enquire about compensation levels and the proof needed in the event of a claim when sending parcels via Special Delivery.

I'm a jewellery designer and maker and as part of my business, I send parcels to the London Assay Office for hallmarking as well as post pieces to consumers that they have purchased online.

These parcels contain silver and gold jewellery items sold at various prices.

Reading your guidance here: http://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/SD_Quick_Quicker_April2012%20.pdf it states that to claim for compensation for loss or damage, that you require "proof of the market value of the item."

What does 'market value' relate to? When I make something, I buy the raw material e.g. gold bullion, gemstones, chains, etc... from various suppliers. In order for it to be made into a piece of jewellery, I need to factor in my own labour costs. When I sell the piece, there is a retail cost which factors in other costs (without which, I wouldn't have been able to make the item) plus profit.

Please could you clarify what I can claim as the 'market value' and how should I provide proof of this in the event of a claim?



Dear Indi
Thank you for your email.
In the rare event of the loss of a Special Delivery item we would compensate on the basis of the cost of the raw materials used to make the piece and a reasonable sum for your time. We would need a breakdown of the costs and evidence of purchase price of the various components. We do not compensate for any profit you would have made.



Dear RM

Thank you for your response.

Please could you clarify what a ‘reasonable sum for your time’ actually means in monetary terms? I charge a certain amount per hour for my labour and would be expected to be compensated at the same rate.

A typical scenario:

I make a bangle which costs £250 to make which includes the materials cost, overheads and labour. The bangle sells for £500. This is posted via Royal Mail (RM) Special Delivery in accordance with all the terms and conditions but is lost.

I have two options as a retailer:
1. I can refund the customer for the bangle - £500.
2. I can offer to remake the bangle.

If the customer chooses option 1, according to what you have stated above, it seems I may only receive £250 in compensation from RM. Of course this amount is dependent on what a ‘reasonable sum for your time’ actually means in monetary terms so in theory, I could receive even less than £250. This would leave me out of pocket through no fault of my own as I would need to refund the customer the full £500.

If the customer chooses option 2, if I only receive £250 in compensation from RM (again, this amount is dependent on what a ‘reasonable sum for your time’ actually means in monetary terms), whilst this may cover the cost of the original, lost item, it does not cover my labour charges for having to make the item again.

The ‘evidence of purchase price’ would be the receipt I give the customer for purchasing the bangle at £500 so wouldn’t I be compensated this full amount plus whatever compensation is offered due to non-delivery?



Dear Indi
Thank you for your further email.
You are correct in saying that we would not compensate you for any profit you would have made. We would require evidence of reasonable production costs before any payment for manufacturing costs could be compensated.
Many commercial jewellers have their own business insurance that would cover them for these additional losses but it is not something that Royal Mail offer.


I have found it quite frustrating communicating with RM. They have a standard two day response to emails. Both my first and follow up email were answered by someone who had to pass it onto someone else taking another two days (in the second case I had to send a reminder email after 6 days of no one responding).

It also seems to be difficult to get a ‘straight’ answer. What is ‘evidence of reasonable production costs’ who is judging what ‘reasonable’ is? For example I may think it is ‘reasonable’ that I charge £15 per hour for my labour. How does RM gauge the ‘reasonableness’ of this charge? Against other people in the same business? By how long I’ve been in business? My qualifications? I still want further clarification from them but have been put off my their seeming lack of wanting to answer a question directly.

As in the bangle scenario above, a lawyer friend is adamant that I would be able to claim for the full cost of the bangle despite the ‘terms & conditions’ by RM. But how many people would get/be able to get a lawyer involved for losses of say £300?

If anyone would like me to continue this email exchange, I am more than happy to but if you could provide the question/s, that would be great!

surfergirl
27-02-2014, 12:21 PM
To add to the scenario above, if the customer who purchased the bangle at £500 decided to post it to her mother as a gift and it was lost by RM, surely this person would be compensated £500 as that's what they paid for it and could provide a receipt to that effect.

Maybe we should be selling our pieces to ourselves before posting them onto the customer ;)

Patstone
27-02-2014, 01:21 PM
This reminds me about a transaction with British rail. The last international jewellery show in London my daughter and her boyfriend came up with me. We bought our tickets online, a few days before. When you collect your tickets from a machine on the station you have to put in a transaction code, mine was ok, so was hers but her boyfriends wouldn't accept the code. As the train was about an hour away the lady at the desk said that his best bet was to pay for the ticket at the office and claim the other money back. That was 6 months ago and she is still waiting, £80 down. !!!!!

CJ57
27-02-2014, 02:24 PM
I see they say commercial jewellers so they are looking at companies making large quantities so their production costs are bound to be less than handmade bespoke.
I have in the past sent whole collections by post to galleries:( Why do they even ask how much the parcel is worth if they aren't going to pay for it??
I also wonder when you tend to buy a bit of silver to make several pieces from, how an invoice will show what the materials cost for the lost item

medusa
27-02-2014, 04:43 PM
<snipped for brevity>
As in the bangle scenario above, a lawyer friend is adamant that I would be able to claim for the full cost of the bangle despite the ‘terms & conditions’ by RM. But how many people would get/be able to get a lawyer involved for losses of say £300?

If anyone would like me to continue this email exchange, I am more than happy to but if you could provide the question/s, that would be great!
Thanks for posting this, Indi, useful work!

I wonder if one could pursue something like this through the small claims court?

Dennis
27-02-2014, 05:14 PM
No one who has not lost work in the post can imagine the total frustration of dealing with Royal Mail, even if you can provide invoices. It's like bashing your head against a brick wall over and over. They rely on that of course to make you give up.

But it does mean that in case of loss, their receipt for jewellery made by you, which carries with it hours of your life, will not be worth the paper its printed on. Dennis

surfergirl
27-02-2014, 06:30 PM
I see they say commercial jewellers so they are looking at companies making large quantities so their production costs are bound to be less than handmade bespoke.


I wondered if their interpretation of 'commercial' meant large companies or literally 'anyone involved in commerce' so anyone involved with making or intending to make a profit. Therefore, if I'm a jeweller (of any description) and selling something which makes a profit then I'm a 'commercial jeweller'. Sigh.

surfergirl
27-02-2014, 06:42 PM
It's like bashing your head against a brick wall over and over. They rely on that of course to make you give up.

It's the vagueness of the definitions used by RM which gives them the ability to apply whichever interpretation/s of those definitions they wish :(

medusa
27-02-2014, 07:27 PM
the youngest works in an insurance brokers. I just asked her if it was possible to get this so-called business insurance RM mentioned in their email to Indy because after looking online I couldn't see anything. She said she'll contact someone at head office and ask. Not sure how affordable it will be for people like me but those of you who already have established businesses might find it useful.

surfergirl
27-02-2014, 07:41 PM
the youngest works in an insurance brokers. I just asked her if it was possible to get this so-called business insurance RM mentioned in their email to Indy because after looking online I couldn't see anything. She said she'll contact someone at head office and ask. Not sure how affordable it will be for people like me but those of you who already have established businesses might find it useful.

Excellent, Liz! Would be great to hear what's she says. I wonder what the excess would be and if that in itself would be a prohibitive factor when it comes to claim time. Thank you, Liz :)

medusa
27-02-2014, 08:01 PM
damn, forgot about excesses! If they ever do clarify what they mean by reasonable production costs I hope you let us know.

CJ57
27-02-2014, 10:27 PM
My policy with Hencilla includes quote ' limit provided for artwork and materials away from your own premises including whilst in transit and at exhibitions anywhere worldwide Excess 10% or each and very claim subject to a minimum contribution £100 and a maximum of £1000

Aurarius
28-02-2014, 01:11 AM
You took the right approach patiently writing to the Royal Mail in that way, Indi. I'd have done the same. I'm not surprised at their answers. RM is essentially a company that doesn't have any reputation worth saving, so they're never going to be generous in these sorts of situations.

I'm not sure the insurance route would reduce the grief in the long term. The thing insurers hate more than anything is a claim, and anyone who's made a claim in the last 5 years immediately qualifies for a much higher premium on renewal or if they change insurer. This hike in premium will be the second and bigger hit you take after having had to stump up for the excess you were liable for as part of the claim. Unless you sometimes send very valuable consignments and a single loss would be catastrophic, insurance is as much a no-win situation as RM.

I think the way to go is the more costly one of a reputable courier, once you've checked that their terms and conditions meet your needs, of course. An even better way is the old-fashioned one of the customer picking up their goods from you in person. It's difficult to make a living that way alone, but at least every face-to-face transaction is one that RM can't foul up for you with very costly and very distressing consequences.

pearlescence
28-02-2014, 07:51 AM
No, commercial means you are engaged in commerce, in business. If you are selling jewellery you have made to multiple customers you are commercial (not commercial would be selling off an item on ebay because you no longer like it, you are not engaged in any jewellery selling business, it could just as easily be a pair of jeans)

pearlescence
28-02-2014, 07:52 AM
CJ57 - Does that clause not mean while the goods are still owned by you and you are transporting them or a shipper is to a market or exhibition. That will not cover them while they are on their way to a new owner

pearlescence
28-02-2014, 08:01 AM
Medusa and Surfergirl. You can easily put in a claim at the small claims court - you can do it online these days. In this situation where there is no dispute that the item is lost, the only dispute is over the amount of compensation you would have to demonstrate that the terms under which RM accepts and conveys your item fall against teh Unfair Contract Terms Act as a take it or leave it option where a big company is 'dumping' its terms on you with no option of negotiation.
However RM could point even to this thread to show that you did know the exact terms under which they accept your goods for their service.
Basically, you know the situation but are too parsimonious to pay the extra insurance which a courier would cost (and it is that extra cost which brings with it the added insurance cover of course)
You might well win at first instance with a sympathetic judge but it is likely that then a raft of big lawyers would be unleashed on you at appeal.
Unless you can convince someone with a deep wallet such as trading standards to take up the case RM will stay exactly as it is
That is the pragmatic approach.
RM is still best at low value shipping, if you accept that some will go astray. (remember that for jewellery items certs of posting and signed for are a waste of time and money as jewellery is specifically excluded from the cover)
There are plenty of other couriers around, you just have to find the operation which fits best with what you do and want.

ShinyLauren
28-02-2014, 09:26 AM
So when you're sending something via International Signed For and they make you pay extra if the piece of jewellery is over £50 for the extra insurance value, there's no point in paying the extra really? If they're only going to refund you the metal cost anyway, you might just as well choose the lower cost shipping option.

Has anyone used couriers to send jewellery to customers, either in the UK or overseas?

pearlescence
28-02-2014, 09:52 AM
What value are you are declaring to customs? (if outside EU)

CJ57
28-02-2014, 11:16 AM
CJ57 - Does that clause not mean while the goods are still owned by you and you are transporting them or a shipper is to a market or exhibition. That will not cover them while they are on their way to a new owner
I would have to clarify what it means as I can't find it in the small print

medusa
28-02-2014, 12:12 PM
My policy with Hencilla includes quote ' limit provided for artwork and materials away from your own premises including whilst in transit and at exhibitions anywhere worldwide Excess 10% or each and very claim subject to a minimum contribution £100 and a maximum of £1000

£100 minimum excess. hmmmm. maybe one day it might be worth forking out for biz insurance then.




I think the way to go is the more costly one of a reputable courier, once you've checked that their terms and conditions meet your needs, of course. An even better way is the old-fashioned one of the customer picking up their goods from you in person. It's difficult to make a living that way alone, but at least every face-to-face transaction is one that RM can't foul up for you with very costly and very distressing consequences.

I haven't found any other courier that will cover jewellery though. Who do you use? face to face pick up wouldn't work for me. not much call where I live for my wares.

ETA: didn't realise I was on the second page until posted. Pearl… who do you recommend for high value shipping?

pearlescence
28-02-2014, 12:29 PM
There are plenty of couriers around - as I said before fedex, dhl , just watch your own street for a while to see all the different vans go past

CJ57
28-02-2014, 12:58 PM
£100 minimum excess. hmmmm. maybe one day it might be worth forking out for biz insurance then.


I think my cost was about £130 this year after 2 yrs but even then it was under 200 to begin with. If you are interested pm me and I can tell you what cover I have.

ShinyLauren
28-02-2014, 01:00 PM
There are plenty of couriers around - as I said before fedex, dhl , just watch your own street for a while to see all the different vans go past

So you've not used any courier in particular for shipping jewellery that you'd recommend?

pearlescence
28-02-2014, 02:05 PM
you need to shop around and check out several to suit what suits you and how you operate. What suits me will probably not suit you.

silvermagpie
28-02-2014, 03:34 PM
So you've not used any courier in particular for shipping jewellery that you'd recommend?

Hi Lauren,
i've used these Couriers a few times but not to send Jewellery (they mainly use City Link and Parcelforce).......http://www.parcelmonkey.co.uk/jewellery.
I've sent UGG Boots and an expensive Lulu Guinness Handbag using them and didn't have a problem with my goods reaching their destination.
I actually sell relatively inexpensive Jewellery, so i just normally 'chance' using Royal Mail.
But no harm in checking out the site for prices etc.

medusa
28-02-2014, 03:41 PM
There are plenty of couriers around - as I said before fedex, dhl , just watch your own street for a while to see all the different vans go past

I just checked out fedex and DHL.. DHL says that shipping of "it contains counterfeit goods, animals, bullion, currency, banderols/tax stickers, bearer form negotiable instruments, precious metals and stones; real or imitation firearms, parts thereof, weapons, explosives and ammunition; human remains, pornography or illegal narcotics/drugs)," is unacceptable, but also that "we can’t transport such as jewellery with a value in excess of £5,000… ". I got an email from parcel monkey saying you can ship costume jewellery up to £25k but not if it's made from precious metals or gemstones. Fedex seems to say they will ship jewellery, so they might be worth going to for an expensive shipment.

And I suppose rather wonderfully I don't live on a street so have nothing going past. Apart from roof slates today.


I think my cost was about £130 this year after 2 yrs but even then it was under 200 to begin with. If you are interested pm me and I can tell you what cover I have.
I'm no where near ready for that kind of insurance yet. this time next year when I've finished studying, maybe.

CJ57
28-02-2014, 05:15 PM
That covers all my tools, materials and jewellery so it's the cheapest I've ever found

ShinyLauren
01-03-2014, 07:03 AM
I just checked out fedex and DHL.. DHL says that shipping of "it contains counterfeit goods, animals, bullion, currency, banderols/tax stickers, bearer form negotiable instruments, precious metals and stones; real or imitation firearms, parts thereof, weapons, explosives and ammunition; human remains, pornography or illegal narcotics/drugs)," is unacceptable, but also that "we can’t transport such as jewellery with a value in excess of £5,000… ". I got an email from parcel monkey saying you can ship costume jewellery up to £25k but not if it's made from precious metals or gemstones. Fedex seems to say they will ship jewellery, so they might be worth going to for an expensive shipment.

And I suppose rather wonderfully I don't live on a street so have nothing going past. Apart from roof slates today.

That's massively helpful Liz - thanks so much for researching.

I also don't live on a street :)

surfergirl
01-03-2014, 11:35 AM
Thank you, Liz and Caroline.

Not many delivery vans round here either! Carrier pigeon? I wonder if we could train a roof slate?

Patstone
02-03-2014, 06:13 AM
A thought about all this, I send articles, mainly rings and pendants to the London Assay office, by Royal Mail, and it is sent "signed for" and they send it back the same way, what happens if it gets lost - normally there is about 10 items and it could be a valuable parcel.

Ebo Von Gaz
02-03-2014, 10:20 AM
I also wonder how often things get lost coming back from the assay office and what royal mail's compensation procedure is for them. Surely if it happened a lot then they would switch to a courier that was more reliable/offered comprehensive cover. Mind you if you're a large organisation you can absorb the occasional pain in the rear from even a comparatively high number of losses, which would be unacceptable to most small businesses.

Dennis
02-03-2014, 10:21 AM
Well that's what this thread is all about, Pat. It could even be delivered to the wrong address and signed for by someone you don't know. If you've lost it, it's your loss: start making it again.

I think it helps to limit the size of your parcels too. Lucky those who can deliver and collect personally.

That said, if it is lost within the assay office itself, they are only liable for the cost of the precious metal, not any gemstones. Dennis.

Michael_D
02-03-2014, 03:33 PM
Well I can say that this topic really has boiled it down to a gravy...
RM will pay sender their purchase price NOT SELLING PRICE. Unless they made it themselves then it's materials only. Original reviews needed to claim and no claim accepted before 35 WORKING DAYS. Payout will take another 35 working days....
I know as I've just recurve day cheque for £79....
That's what I paid for the gold ring I sold for £300.

So that's not Cobblers is it metalsmith?


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medusa
02-03-2014, 04:25 PM
Well I can say that this topic really has boiled it down to a gravy...
RM will pay sender their purchase price NOT SELLING PRICE. Unless they made it themselves then it's materials only. Original reviews needed to claim and no claim accepted before 35 WORKING DAYS. Payout will take another 35 working days....
I know as I've just recurve day cheque for £79....
That's what I paid for the gold ring I sold for £300.


Well that makes sense in a way, because RM won't pay for the profit made. That's a different thing to not paying for the labour on something which is really the issue of the thread. I have my wholesale price and my retail price.

That said, regarding reselling which is what you are referring to, I wonder what would happen if the ring had not been bought previously, but was inherited for example? And how far back could RM go to demand proof of purchase? What about if there was an insurance assessment of value?

I buy a lot of old jewellery, repair it and sell it on, usually making a very good profit. I have bought the same design on numerous occasions and paid between £30 and £160. So in theory, if one that I originally paid £30 for sold for say £250 then went missing, I could just use any one of the invoices for one I bought at a higher price for my claim. I still might not get the full price I sold it for back, but I'd get a substantial amount back. Alternatively I might say the item was my grandmother's and here is one in the same kind of condition which sold for more than I got. I don't see how they could argue the case for having to provide an original receipt then.

Aurarius
02-03-2014, 04:40 PM
Alternatively I might say the item was my grandmother's and here is one in the same kind of condition which sold for more than I got. I don't see how they could argue the case for having to provide an original receipt then.
I'm not sure they'd play ball there.
A recent quote from RM:"Royal Mail insurance now only covers the purchase price of any item you lose or allow to be stolen and must be verified by a receipt rather than, as in the past, proof of the value of the item when sold..."
In other words if your grandmother's Cartier ring goes awol in transit, RM gives you zero.

medusa
02-03-2014, 05:03 PM
I'm not sure they'd play ball there.
A recent quote from RM:"Royal Mail insurance now only covers the purchase price of any item you lose or allow to be stolen and must be verified by a receipt rather than, as in the past, proof of the value of the item when sold..."
In other words if your grandmother's Cartier ring goes awol in transit, RM gives you zero.

bummer.
…..

metalsmith
02-03-2014, 07:26 PM
Well I can say that this topic really has boiled it down to a gravy...
RM will pay sender their purchase price NOT SELLING PRICE. Unless they made it themselves then it's materials only. Original reviews needed to claim and no claim accepted before 35 WORKING DAYS. Payout will take another 35 working days....
I know as I've just recurve day cheque for £79....
That's what I paid for the gold ring I sold for £300.

So that's not Cobblers is it metalsmith?


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That's not good news! Is this their first offer? I get the impression that you have to be prepared to stick to your guns and fight your corner. Did you include any time that you had spent on improving the ring. It might be worth-while creating a log so that each job is documented in time. I reckon lost rings must take a... g... e... s to prepare.

However (elsewhere on this thread) I'd recommend stopping short of providing a receipt for a different item, since that would be considered as fraud.

Michael_D
02-03-2014, 07:28 PM
Oh dear. It's not a question of offers.

Read the small print.


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CJ57
06-03-2014, 05:09 PM
OH has been doing some investigating at the PO in the brochure and online and has come up with the following

This only works with RM special delivery guaranteed delivery for 1pm which is the only one that covers jewellery anyway. This is the one that covers for the material costs only, basic cost up to £500 or up to a further £2500
On top of that you would then have to take out insurance for consequential loss for an added fee, which gives you cover up to 10k. I have been unable to ascertain on the RM website how much this costs or the terms of it though. Under English law consequential loss means the total cost of the items including time etc and not just the material costs. They mention it several times on the website as being available but they seem to want to keep the detail of it a secret!!

There is another fault to the PO counters service we found today, when they ask the worth of a parcel they should ask what it is because jewellery isn't covered by anything but the guaranteed next day delivery, so recorded is meaningless. That could be another factor to a claim as you are being mis-sold a service or the counter staff aren't asking the correct questions to enable you to post it securely

surfergirl
06-03-2014, 06:41 PM
On top of that you would then have to take out insurance for consequential loss for an added fee, which gives you cover up to 10k. I have been unable to ascertain on the RM website how much this costs or the terms of it though. Under English law consequential loss means the total cost of the items including time etc and not just the material costs. They mention it several times on the website as being available but they seem to want to keep the detail of it a secret!!


I saw this too, Caroline. In my email to them, I did mention consequential loss and this was RM's reply: "Consequential loss cover would not be of use to you as it would not cover loss of profits." No further details despite asking about fees. It says on the RM website that details are available from the PO but when I asked about this at the counter they didn't have any information to give me. I pointed this out the RM in my email, did they elaborate? Er….no. Grrrr...

From memory of looking into consequential loss years ago regarding something else, I gathered this was for legal documents and the like or for something which may not be valuable in itself but if for example, the papers had to be somewhere by a certain time and didn't arrive, there might be penalties incurred for the person posting it. If sending these papers by RMSD and not delivered, all that you would receive in compensation would be the related compensation rate for non delivery.

CJ57
06-03-2014, 07:51 PM
I saw this too, Caroline. In my email to them, I did mention consequential loss and this was RM's reply: "Consequential loss cover would not be of use to you as it would not cover loss of profits." No further details despite asking about fees. It says on the RM website that details are available from the PO but when I asked about this at the counter they didn't have any information to give me. I pointed this out the RM in my email, did they elaborate? Er….no. Grrrr...

From memory of looking into consequential loss years ago regarding something else, I gathered this was for legal documents and the like or for something which may not be valuable in itself but if for example, the papers had to be somewhere by a certain time and didn't arrive, there might be penalties incurred for the person posting it. If sending these papers by RMSD and not delivered, all that you would receive in compensation would be the related compensation rate for non delivery.
They just don't want to give you a straight answer Indi! OH was a cop and the way he read consequential loss under tha law was to cover all parts of the total cost. I'm sure if we were to take it to a lawyer for confirmation they would agree but the that would as said before mean taking them to the amall claims court :( if they are saying it doesn't cover profit, then we could argue thatyour hourly rate and overheads are not necessarily your profit margin. Pity we don't all have the time and money to challenge this!!
What would then be the point of paying for consequential loss if it doesn't cover anything, they're taking the p...!!

pearlescence
07-03-2014, 09:32 AM
Consequential losses are the losses incurred as a consequence of the loss - so that if papers are lost it is the costs/fees for replacement. It would be arguable that, since I buy my pearls from wholesalers in Hong Kong in person it would be a consequence of any loss that I had to fly over to HK to buy the replacement stock.
It doesn't cover profit which is not a consequence of the loss, but a different head of damage. However, if, as a consequence of the loss you had to divert your time and attention from making something else new and novel to making something to replace the item they lost, that would arguably be a consequence.
NB it is a civil contract matter. The court could also find that the RM terms and conditions fail under UCTA etc although there is less likelihood of that now that other shipping companies are available. No monopoly means that you are not forced to use RM and accept any old terms they foist on you.