Upgrading from a microtorch

[klevellcaine]

Hi,

This is my first post here. So hello! How are you? And please could one of you mighty brains help me solve this question...

I'm new to soldering, but have enjoyed a degree of success using Cookson's soldering starter kit and following the 'sampler' exercises in Kate Ferrant Richbourgh's excellent book, Simple Soldering. For those of you who don't know the book, it offers tutorials based around you creating 16 one-inch-square copper sample tiles, each of which introduces you to different metalsmithing and soldering techniques and/or materials. The squares are made from 0.5mm copper sheet and you add various bits and bobs, in silver or copper, on top using different types of solder.

As I said, after much practice I managed to complete the exercises, but on some I found that it was almost impossible to get the solder to flow. I wondered if it was because my Cookson's torch wasn't powerful enough once the top of my square had been covered with embellishments, so I tried an old campingaz VT1 torch I had in the garage from some soldering/plumbing work a friend of mine had done for me a few years before. This certainly provided enough heat, but with a flame whose diameter was around the same size as my sample tile I had no control over where the solder flowed (mmm, nice shiny puddles of solder everywhere - still, it gave me the opportunity to learn filing and sanding! ;-)). I then went to the DIY store and bought a Campingaz x-1650 extra fine burner for the nozzle, but I still find it very imprecise compared to my Cookson's torch, not to mention it sometimes has an alarming tendency to produce a fiery dragon breath effect across my soldering station when I point it at a sharp downwards angle. =:-O

So, my question is, do I need to upgrade? (I would like ultimately to be able to work on bangles/cuffs and later move on to metal clay.) Or do I simply need to become ambidextrous and use the campingaz torch for heating and the Cookson torch for directing the solder flow? If I do upgrade, would there be any point upgrading to a propane/air torch (I'm not sure my insurance would allow for a oxygen/acetelyne or oxygen/propane system and my budget won't stretch to a torch and an oxycon system). Would a propane/air torch give greater heat like the campingaz torch, but with the fine control of the Cookson torch?

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I hope giving you precise info of what I've been doing will get me some precise answers. At the moment I just seem to have more and more questions! :-D

Many thanks in advance,

Karen

[caroleallen]

Hi Karen and welcome. If you can't use an oxygen/propane torch, I think I'd try using two cooks torches at once and see how you get on.

[Dennis]

Hi Karen,

I sympathise with what you say. This has been a regular question here for years and you will find most of the replies in this thread:

http://www.cooksongold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5380&highlight=Campingaz.

I have used the Campngaz torch as my larger torch, since I began about twenty years ago, but I have discarded the optional smaller burner as not very useful. Often I use two torches as described by you: Sometimes two big torches for very large work and sometimes the big torch for background heat and the minitorch to make the solder flow.

At most times though, I can make do with just one. Unfortunately, recently the Campingaz tends to flare disconcertingly when the canister is new, but improves once the pressure falls a bit. I think it is because they have the initial pressure a little higher than it should be. You will also note, that to tame the big torch and make the flame softer, one can not only turn it down quite a bit, but I have added a modification.

My modification, although not sanctioned by the company, is to add an omega shaped clip made from brass strip, which can be used to partially close the air holes. This makes the flame much less fierce.

I would also like to add that in soldering, the direction the solder flows is influenced by laying the pallions across the join and heating the piece as evenly as possible. Only when the whole reaches soldering temperature can you bring a flame closer to the join. The type of torch itself does not play a great part in this, although each one requires a certain individual knack. On the whole heating more slowly stops the solder scattering. Dennis.

[mizgeorge]

The only thing I'd add is to say that copper requires a lot more work to get the solder to flow than silver as it's much harder to get the whole piece up to temperature, especially with just one torch. Working on a charcoal block helps a lot, and building a little 'furnace' of bits of charcoal or soldering brick can help more still.

A propane torch (I hugely prefer the balance of the Orca/EZ over a Sievert) will give you a lot more options, but also ties you to a hose, which can feel limiting if you're used to using handhelds.

[klevellcaine]

Hi,

Wow! Thanks for all the feedback, guys.

I did read Sandra's thread, Dennis, and found it very, very useful (in fact, I first found it by googling 'solder breaking apart in the pickle' as that was happening to me too before I tried the larger torch). The two torch idea is a possibility, but the trouble is, I'm not really a naturally ambidextrous person (sometimes I find it difficult to coordinate one limb at a time, let alone two :-D), so I'd really like to have something in just one hand. Your omega clip modification looks interesting, Dennis. Would that give me the adjustability of the Cookson's torch, but with more heat? I guess that's what I'm really after - something powerful enough to heat the piece to temperature that I can then 'dial down' to a fine flame for leading the flow. If not, would any of the propane/air torches do that (or even the oxy/propane ones)? Or is the only adjustment in the form of changing tip? In which case, is there any advantage of having one of these hose-fed, professional type torches as opposed to switching between two different-sized handheld torches? Or am I just wrong about needing a finer flame for leading the flow? Do I just need to try and focus on the edges of the smaller piece with a bushier flame if that is what is required to heat up the piece? (Sorry, so many questions!)

I'll certainly look into the 'furnace' idea, George. I plan to use a lot of copper early on because of the price, so I need to find a way of building the heat up and retaining it. I also appreciate the point about ensuring that the whole piece is the same temperature, Dennis. In fact, recently I have been heating the asbestos-substitute solder sheet around the copper tile to build up the heat through induction because licking the tile directly with the flame seemed to be causing the smaller embellishments on top to heat up too quickly and the solder wouldn't flow (or it would burn out in the case of paste). This new approach seems to be more successful.

That said, I do still have one problem. What do you do when you can't see the solder? I've had some projects where the solder is underneath another item (like in a divot under a ball). Obviously, you only use a tiny amount of solder because you don't want it to flow out of the divot, but how do you know when it is approaching the flow point and that it's time to focus the heat on the smaller piece. And how do you know if it has flowed or not? I've been heating the copper tile to the glowing orange stage and praying that my previously soldered items don't reflow (they're also under stuff, so I can't see them either), but I'm sure there must be a more scientific approach. (The soldering gods seem rather fickle and demand too many sacrificial pieces for my liking! :-D).

As ever, I'd appreciate any help you can offer on either of these two subjects.

Thanks in advance,

Karen

[Patstone]

I have a Sievert type for everyday use, but started with hand helds and still use them now. I have the plumbers torch that you are talking about, but the cylinder is about 9 inches high so its the bigger one. The answer to soldering with the bigger torch is to buy a bigger sheet to use on your bench so you dont cause a fire and I put my things on a charcoal soldering block but on a turntable that is raised so you can see where the end of the flame is. You must bear in mind that with the big torch it is quicker, so do it in stages rather than wait until everything melts. This is my experience, not the way I was taught, also there are two varieties of cooks torch, one is quite small and the other is bigger, so it may be that a bigger one would be better for you.

[caroleallen]

The answer to your question about how to know when the solder has flowed is to watch the colour of your piece and don't have a light directly above it. You should see a small flash of solder around whatever you're soldering but I admit that's not always the case if you use such a tiny bit of solder. It's really all down to experience. As George says, copper is much harder to solder than silver.

[Dennis]

Here are a few additional points then:

The heat of a torch depends on the size of the burner (the tube the flame comes out of), and the type of gas used. Butane is quite cool until you add propane and/or oxygen.

It also depends on the admixture of air, for torches with an air hole. The mini-torch already has a ring to vary this. My omega clip is a modification for the plumber's torch and could also be used with the Sievert. In fact some videos show the demonstrator putting a finger over the air hole. I think that's unsafe.
One benefit of reducing the air is to have a gentler flame. Another is that with reduced oxygen you are less liable to get firescale.

All the members above have chipped in with useful advice, but ultimately you will develop you own instincts to match your system. I just happen to have a pic to show the furnace idea, below. Dennis.

[klevellcaine]

Thanks again for all your responses. It really is very illuminating (if you'll pardon the pun).

Patstone, do you know if Cookson's Max Flame torch is significantly different to the campingaz torch I have already? It looks less unweildy than mine to be sure, but is it basically the same performance?

Dennis, thanks for posting the photo of the 'furnace' I can see what you mean now. I think creating that sort of arrangement will be my first step. I was interested that you described butane as being quite cool until you add propane. Does that mean a propane torch like the Sievert or Orca is hotter than a handheld butane torch with the same size burner? If I want to work on larger scale copper pieces, such as cuffs, will I have to bite the bullet and upgrade and if so would a propane/air torch be sufficient?

Caroleallen, thanks for the info. I had a horrible feeling it might be down to experience. Still, I've already improved, so I guess I'll get there in the end! :-D By the way, I looked at your website. You have some gorgeous pieces. I must admit after seeing it I went off on a little research trip round the web looking at what's involved with using anodised aluminium. So that's now yet another thing on my seemingly endless list of things I'd like to try! :-D

[Dennis]

Well the Campingaz canisters already contain the butane/propane mix. Historically, the company making the torch was called Taymar and the canisters contained only butane.
At that time I struggled with large pieces so got a second torch the same.

This was also when I approached them with my modification, but they were not interested on the grounds that it would need independent health and safety testing. Can you imagine the French company which now owns it, even considering my idea, or responding to the complaint that it flares when a cylinder is new?

That said I have used the omega clips for many years without problems, other than that they quickly get too hot to turn with fingers. Dennis

[Patstone]

I would think that the Cookies one was a lot less cumbersome. My big one is a GoGas, which has a 635ml capacity so quite tall (not sure if its Gas or Gaz) bought in B & Q I think, which is like a furnace if you have really big things to solder, melts in seconds. The other hand helds I have are ones similar to the one in Cookies but I think I got mine on the internet, but Lakeland have the same one but more expensive. I have one Colourcraft one which is small, and a Cooks Craft one which is the same size, also one from my local Calor Gas company which is similar to the Sievert which runs from a bottle under the bench. Making 5 in total. Pat.

[klevellcaine]

It seems that buying torches can become addictive, Patstone! :-D

[klevellcaine]

Hi Dennis,

I'm actually an expat living in France, so I can well imagine what would happen if you were to approach a French company with an imaginative idea. If you emailed them they simply wouldn't reply. If you phoned, they'd expect you to speak French (fair enough), but if you did they'd switch to English just to show how much better they were in your language, than you are in theirs! :-D If you wrote to them, your letter would enter a Kafka-esque processing system and ultimately be filed when someone was bold enough to take such action after deciding that it didn't fit any of their procedures. You, of course, would never hear anything, but you could at least be satisfied that you had kept lots of over-protected, paper-pushing types in employment. :-D

Actually, I do love the French, but their bureaucracy - Ooh la la!

Karen

[Dennis]

Thank you, Karen. Glad to have that confirmed. Dennis.

[LydiaNiz]

the Cookson's max flame hand held one is the biggest torch I have, and I only struggle if doing very big pieces (say soldering a piece onto a 4cm wide 1mm thick cuff - and then I use two :-)
It's much, much easier to control than a campingaz one (I've tried 'em). I use it for everything apart from bezels, wire, earring posts etc, when I switch back to my little torch.

[klevellcaine]

Thanks, LydiaNiz. It sounds like that set up will be fine for me (for a while at least :-)). Especially if I build myself a little furnace, too. I hate to go out and spend more cash, but I'm really not happy with the Campingaz dragon breath effect! I'm just not Saint George material, I guess :-D

[Aurarius]

I'm on the point of buying a bigger torch than the Proxxon minitorch I've been using up to now. This one from Hamilton Gas (http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2egasproducts %2eco%2euk%2f&WD=sievert%20kit&PN=Sievert_Pro_86_Jewellers_Gas_Blow_Torch_Kit%2eh tml%23aHA138J#aHA138J)looks like a good deal.


I've got a few questions I can't answer. If anyone can help with any I'd be grateful.


Firstly, would it be sensible for me to get an additional and bigger burner with this at the same time, such as the 3938, 3939, 3940, or will the burner supplied (the 8842 needle flame) be adequate for most purposes?


Also, I see quite a few people say they use the Bent Neck Tube (code 3511, I think). Could anyone tell me what advantage that gives over the standard set-up? Does it make the torch a bit easier to use in confined spaces or something?


I know the torch takes its oxygen from the air via a hole in the burner but there is no way of regulating the air flow, so the flame is always an oxidising flame, never a bushy one. I take it you just hold the torch further away from the workpiece if you want a gentler, bushier flame? Dennis mentioned he'd made a clip that he could slide across the airhole to regulate air intake. Is this as straightforward as it sounds, Dennis, i.e. just a case of making a snug-fitting open ring of brass or copper, preferably with some "wings" on the end so you can get hold of it easily to slide it back and to?


The last thing I can't find an answer to is do I have to get the biggish propane tanks (on a contract) from the outset or can I make do initially with the sort of small propane tanks (http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p13125)sold for plumbing at places like Toolstation? I suppose the crucial question is whether the fitting on the end of the tank is compatible with the Sievert hose.


Lastly, I'd be just as happy to buy an Orca, which I see some members have been happy with, but I'm unsure what items I'd need to buy in order to use this out of the box. Any help here would be appreciated.


Many thanks!

Mark.

[trialuser]

I'm on the point of buying a bigger torch than the Proxxon minitorch I've been using up to now. This one from Hamilton Gas (http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2egasproducts %2eco%2euk%2f&WD=sievert%20kit&PN=Sievert_Pro_86_Jewellers_Gas_Blow_Torch_Kit%2eh tml%23aHA138J#aHA138J)looks like a good deal.


I've got a few questions I can't answer. If anyone can help with any I'd be grateful.

Firstly, would it be sensible for me to get an additional and bigger burner with this at the same time, such as the 3938, 3939, 3940, or will the burner supplied (the 8842 needle flame) be adequate for most purposes?


Also, I see quite a few people say they use the Bent Neck Tube (code 3511, I think). Could anyone tell me what advantage that gives over the standard set-up? Does it make the torch a bit easier to use in confined spaces or something?


I know the torch takes its oxygen from the air via a hole in the burner but there is no way of regulating the air flow, so the flame is always an oxidising flame, never a bushy one. I take it you just hold the torch further away from the workpiece if you want a gentler, bushier flame? Dennis mentioned he'd made a clip that he could slide across the airhole to regulate air intake. Is this as straightforward as it sounds, Dennis, i.e. just a case of making a snug-fitting open ring of brass or copper, preferably with some "wings" on the end so you can get hold of it easily to slide it back and to?


The last thing I can't find an answer to is do I have to get the biggish propane tanks (on a contract) from the outset or can I make do initially with the sort of small propane tanks (http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p13125)sold for plumbing at places like Toolstation? I suppose the crucial question is whether the fitting on the end of the tank is compatible with the Sievert hose.


Lastly, I'd be just as happy to buy an Orca, which I see some members have been happy with, but I'm unsure what items I'd need to buy in order to use this out of the box. Any help here would be appreciated.


Many thanks!

Mark.

I've recently bought this and I don't like it - I'll say why in a bit, but, to answer your questions.

The supplied burner has been adequate for everything I have needed it to do - general soldering, torch enamelling and melting small blobs of silver when I'm bored. I did also buy a bigger burner at the same time - may as well as it's cheapish and won't add to carriage. May come in handy if you want to anneal large pieces or something. I've never used it yet.

Don't know about the bent neck bit.

The flame is not what I would call madly oxidising (you are not adding any extra oxygen into the burn), It has the usual blue cone and depending on the gas pressure setting, a bushier flame of varying size at the end of the flame envelope, as you said. You can't get it any more oxidising than an air burn will produce but I suppose if you 'do a Dennis', you will get a more reducing flame.

The fitting is a pol fitting and I'm not aware of small hand held canisters with pol. You don't need a huge propane cylinder, the small 3.9kg fits fine. I'd imagine you could remove the pol fitting and replace it with a different one if you really wanted but you'd need some sort of pressure regulator somewhere along the line. Calor cylinders are not on contract as such in the same way as other industrial gasses, you just have to pay a deposit on the first cylinder, and then it's one in one out. I've always managed to find one somewhere to exchange the first time, they are often on ebay and I once got one which was left behind after travellers moved on from a car park.

I don't like it because - It won't light from my lazyboy battery operated torch lighter - the sort you operate the switch with the burner nozzle, no matter how hard I try. I have to spark up my small proxon and light it from that!! My little torch knock off lights fine from the battery sparker.

When you turn it off it gradually burns out taking what seems like an eternity (probably only 3 secs or so), but it means you have to be thinking about what you are doing with it when you are wanting to be moving onto the next procedure.

Having said that - I don't find it as cumbersome or heavy as it looks it would be, and once it's lit I find it easy and controllable to use and capable of surprisingly fine detail soldering

Don't know about orcas.

I got mine from Hamilton and it was delivered from Ireland in a day or two, it does have a usefully long hose too!!

[Dennis]

I used a Sievert for years, at the college I attend Mark, until the workshop was moved. Yes, I did melt a few things but eventually I learned to keep the torch on the move. Also for larger items (notably a spoon) it was not hot enough. Eventually they got a larger burner. Oh and they did have bent necks.

I did not note the numbers, as at home I used the hand held Campingaz and still do. Two things I will say:

Both burners need to be connected to your tank, simultaneously and ready to use, as needed.

I did see Andrew Berry close the air holes with his fingers in an early video (ouch). That seemed to justify my sneaking one of my clips in to college and using it surreptitiously. For health and safety reasons, unauthorised modifications are frowned on, in case the gas burns back and causes an accident. That said I have not had any problems (yet) except touching one once when it was hot. Dennis.

[Patstone]

I have three hand held torches of varying sizes, one big plumbers hand held which is more like a flame thrower but it is for heavy work like 2mm thick silver bangles, and is a bit scary if you are using it in a spare bedroom like I am. The two little ones are for kitchen use initially, one is quite small, the other a little bigger and one that I use for most smaller jobs like posts on earrings.
However the main one I use is similar to a Sievert but a Bullfinch 1185, and I find it very useful, it is used most of the time and connects to a propane tank which is about a foot high and 10 inches diameter at a guess. I bought a pendant motor stand which is screwed to the edge of my bench which I hang mine on when not in use and while waiting for it to cool down, the stand is sturdy enough to hold it and height adjustable, I paid about £12 for it, I think it was from Walsh's.
I have found if I hold it further away from what I am soldering it has the same effect as a bushy flame, beyond the pointy blue flame its yellow. I suppose really it depends on what sort of stuff you are making, bigger size things will need more heat, or two torches etc. I went into our local gas supplier for a Sievert and he showed me this one as well, which was half the price so as I paid £40 I thought if it wasnt any good, put it on ebay and buy another one. It has been in constant use for 4 years and the gas container is the original one. Mine has a bent neck by the way, I should think it makes it easier than a straight one.

[camalidesign]

I would suggest getting the Orca instead of a Sievert as it is so much easier and lighter to work wiht. You also get 3 tips, easily changable which takes on anything from small jump rings to large bangles. And you only need a bottle of propane. I use mine for most things, haven't had the cash to get a Little Torch and an Oxycon yet...

Carin

[Aurarius]

Many thanks for the replies.
I'm beginning to think I might buy the Orca.
Could I just ask, is the EZ torch sold by Suttons the same torch as the Orca but just going under a different name? I notice Suttons sell the EZ as a kit complete with regulator, whereas Walsh's sell the Orca without a regulator. What's tipping me towards the Orca/EZ is the air adjustment facility and the relative lightness of it compared to the Sievert. Also the fact that there is a dedicated adapter you can get for using the small disposable propane tanks.

[mizgeorge]

Yes, the EZ is just another name for the Orca. I'm a big fan, especially with the adapter to use MAPP cannisters, which makes it very portable.

[Aurarius]

Well I got myself an Orca, and I can tell you it has revolutionised soldering for me. I can see now that whilst the Proxxon minitorch is good for the small stuff, it's out of its depth doing anything substantial. I've got one small reservation: the threaded air adjustment ring seems to be quite a loose fit. This does have the advantage that you can turn it with only one finger, but I've noticed that the transition from a bushy flame to an oxygen-rich one needs only a small turn of the ring and the looseness of the ring means that it sometimes turns slightly of its own accord. I'd be interested to know whether anyone else has encountered this, whether they've found it a problem, and whether they've found a solution.

[Petal]

Hi Aquarius, sounds like the Orca is a goos buy. Did you solve your problems with the air adjustment ring ...?

[Aurarius]

Hi Aquarius, sounds like the Orca is a goos buy. Did you solve your problems with the air adjustment ring ...?
Sorry for my very late reply.

I've more or less learned to live with it. The problem essentially is that there is a little bit too much slop between the threads of the adjuster ring and the threads on the torch head. This means that when the torch is in operation there is a tendency for the adjuster ring to turn of its own accord (particularly when the torch head is pointing down) as a consequence of the inevitable vibration associated with the flame disgorging from the burner. Closer machining of the two threaded parts would resolve this, I'm sure.

One less drastic fix than remachining things might be to place a small compression spring just in front of the adjuster ring so that the adjuster is held under light compression as it turns. Hopefully this would decrease its tendency to rotate of its own accord; though because of the design of the burners, this trick might only work on the bigger two (you get three with the torch). I keep meaning to try this spring idea out but it's finding a spring that fits that is taking the time.

In spite of my small reservation, the Orca is still an excellent torch for novice solderers.

ETA: I could always have a go at making the spring myself of course.

[Wendy Moriarty]

With regards to the flaring 'dragon breath' of the hand held go system, a problem I have had, I recently read that you have to light the torch & leave it stood upright for 60 seconds to stop it flaring, bizarrely it seems to work

[Sandra]

I still haven't upgraded my micro torch because for one, I can't decide what to buy! When I read the info here about Oxycon tanks and renting cylinders I get overwhelmed and just nervous thinking about it. I like the look of the little Smith torch, however with that is the issue of renting cylinders and such. Does something like the Campingaz offer different size tips?

[Dennis]

Does something like the Campingaz offer different size tips?

They have offered one in the past and probably still do, but trying it I did not feel it offered any advantage over the standard tip, so I put it away and never used it again.

The whole point is that by reducing the flame size and reducing the air hole the flame is not in the least threatening, but heats a piece gently all over.

Anything fine such as chains and jump rings can still be done with the Proxxon. Another trick is to heat a piece gently with a large torch and cause the solder to flow locally with the small torch. Dennis.

[Sandra]

Is this the one you have Dennis? http://www.transtools.co.uk/hand-tools/plumbing-tools/gas-torches/campingaz-handy-blowlamp-torch-piezo-ignition-with-gas-170g

[Dennis]

Is this the one you have Dennis? http://www.transtools.co.uk/hand-tools/plumbing-tools/gas-torches/campingaz-handy-blowlamp-torch-piezo-ignition-with-gas-170g

Yes, but you have to make sure that someone nearby stocks the replacement canisters, so you don't have to pay postage. The larger canister is better value and does not alter the flame. Just makes it last longer. I hope you won't curse me for suggesting this torch. Dennis.

[Sandra]

I hope you won't curse me for suggesting this torch. Dennis.
Don't sweat it Dennis - if I hate it it's no great loss! ;)

[Goldsmith]

Have you seen this torch kit Sandra; http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Sievert_Pro_86_Jewellers_Gas_Blow_Torch_Kit.html it screws onto a standard propane cylinder.

James

[Aurarius]

Have you seen this torch kit Sandra; http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Sievert_Pro_86_Jewellers_Gas_Blow_Torch_Kit.html it screws onto a standard propane cylinder.

James
Just to clarify, when you say standard propane cylinder do you mean the refillable ones that you get on a contract rather than the disposable ones such as these? (http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p13125?utm_source=feed&utm_medium=googleshopping&utm_campaign=googleshopping&mkwid=IN4J6tAZ&pcrid=26798364863&gclid=CI-FpJvyx78CFcbKtAodMgMAgQ)

[mizgeorge]

That's why I like the orca as a single fuel torch. You can use either a full size propane bottle, or (with an adapter) a disposable MAPP cylinder. The sievert needs a full size bottle - though a 6kg really isn't that big.

[Dennis]

How do you buy your MAPP cylinders George? There seem to be lots of sources. Will the adapter fit them all reliably?

[mizgeorge]

I usually get them from my local builders' merchant, but if I see a really good deal online I'll take it. I tend to stick to the Rothenburger version and have never had one that didn't fit. I can also use a rothenburger nozzle directly on the same cannister, or a hothead torch for emergency lampwork!

[Sandra]

Goldsmith yes I've seen those and thank you for the link, but then when it comes to conversation on cylinders, propane, MAPP, refillables vs. disposables I just haven't a clue which is the main reason I haven't moved forward and upgraded my micro torch yet.

[Goldsmith]

Just to clarify, when you say standard propane cylinder do you mean the refillable ones that you get on a contract rather than the disposable ones such as these? (http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p13125?utm_source=feed&utm_medium=googleshopping&utm_campaign=googleshopping&mkwid=IN4J6tAZ&pcrid=26798364863&gclid=CI-FpJvyx78CFcbKtAodMgMAgQ)

The Sievert torches require a contract cylinder which is usually a one off payment of around £35 plus the gas cost, then forever after you just pay for refill, which is just exchanging the empty cylinder for full one, my local garage stocks them and a few of my local garden centres also. If you do not have much space then a 3.9kg propane cylinder will do, this is only 13 inches tall by 9 inches wide and weighs 10kg when full, see; http://www.calor.co.uk/shop/gas-bottles/propane-gas-bottles/3-9kg-propane-gas-bottle.html . It is so much easier soldering when you just have a torch in your hand. I have a large 13kg propane cylinder in a cupboard outside my workshop with a dual connector on the regulator so that I can have my Sievert and my Little torch connected to the same propane gas bottle, which gives me enough heat to anneal and solder large and small items. With this set up I have worked on items up to 16 inches wide in the past.

James

[Ghost]

I think a Benzomatic T4000 using MAP gas is hot enough to solder, anneal and melt silver scrap etc. I have a 4 ft extension that clips the cylinder to your belt, so you can use the torch any angle you like.