Lampert - PUK4 Welding System

[Nick martin]

Hi All,

Can someone explain to me in layman's terms the advantage of using something like the PUK 4 welding machine by Lampert?

I've been looking at the demonstration videos and Im a bit perplexed to be honest. I can understand the 'filling porosity' application, but does it differ from soldering that much ( I.E. do you still need to solder over welds? )

Im also assuming that it doesn't generate heat like soldering does so guess theres no issues regarding fire scale or being ultra careful around gems etc?

Sorry for the daft questions, but looks like an incredible piece of equipment, albeit very expensive and puzzling!

Nick

[H H Wheen]

A very quick reply: it is indeed a great piece if kit. The weld is great because there is no visible joint as the surface becomes all parent metal so to speak. But unless you take a long time filling a 'V' joint it is not awfully strong. So for example, if you are sizing a ring, weld the outside and sides of the shank and then solder the inside - best of both worlds!

Fantastic with platinum. Got to go now. ATB

[Nick martin]

Thanks for that info.

So if the weld becomes parent metal, does this mean that no fillet is created and that no kind of solder is required? Do the finished items need pickling as per usual or is fire scale on the likes of silver non existent?

Apart from the initial cost, I'm trying to find the 'cons' of using such a system. Does the argon gas ( that presumably needs refilling ) cost a bomb?

Nick

[H H Wheen]

Pure Argon is about £35-40 per fill. You don't need solder if you do a proper 'V' weld starting at the bottom and gradually working your way towards the wider bit. You then have to go proud of the surface and grind back to flush using a compactor in a flex shaft.
There is little heat exchange so you can work directly next to a stone without fear of harming - even re tipping with the stone in situ is fine!

I don't work in silver or 9 carat so can't comment with regard to fire scale but 18 carat of all colours and platinum is fine.

[Dennis]

If I had the machine, I would also hope to use it for fixing snake and other complex chain to chain ends and also for tacking together components prior to soldering, so dispensing with clamps, or binding wire and enabling single-stage soldering. Dennis.

[Nick martin]

I can see how it would make repairs an easier task as well as the small fiddly tasks.

If for example you were to tack something onto a ring shank to hold it in place, would you then use traditional solder over the top of the weld, or around it to finish off the job? I'm having difficulty in understanding if the PUK machine makes a flush weld, or a fillet similar to traditional soldering.

Nick

[Patstone]

By the way, the snake chain arrived for the pendant, all soldered OK.

[Dennis]

If for example you were to tack something onto a ring shank to hold it in place, would you then use traditional solder over the top of the weld, or around it to finish off the job? I'm having difficulty in understanding if the PUK machine makes a flush weld, or a fillet similar to traditional soldering.
Nick

I don't know much about welding, but have always presumed that you get a series of fused spots. Adding conventional solder would then infiltrate all the gaps, provided they were only slight as in normal soldering. Dennis.

[Nick martin]

Thanks Dennis, that's my conclusion too.

Nick

[H H Wheen]

The idea is that you overlap the welds to give an invisible seam.

[Nick martin]

It looks like an amazing tool to me and I'm enquiring about it as I've been offered one as a gift!

Don't for one minute think that my skill levels warrant one, but if its free and can be used in the future then why not. Presuming no solder is needed unless filling porosity?

Also wondering if its effective on Sterling & Fine silver as that's why I'm making items in right now.

Nick

[ps_bond]

Why would you fill porosity with solder when you can buzz in the same metal?

[Nick martin]

My mistake.. I meant use the appropriate silver wire alongside the electrode part to add to the parent metal, from what I gather.

Nick

[ps_bond]

Ah. Yes, that's welding - you use the same(ish) filler metal as the parent, so the joint and the filler are as close to homogeneous as possible. Soldering uses a filler metal with a significantly lower melting point, while brazing uses a filler with a much higher MP.

If anyone can shed some light on the pros & cons of laser vs. PUK welding I'd be very interested (apart from the cost and the 20A power requirement for laser...)

[H H Wheen]

I bought my Puk four or five years ago. At there time there was available a short video series which outlined the basics. I'm sure there must be copies available still.
Don't know what I would do without it now!

[H H Wheen]

Oh, I forgot to say, Cookson does fantastic 18 carat round wire which makes an ideal filler. I think it is 0.3mm - perfect!

[adam p]

I bought my Puk four or five years ago. At there time there was available a short video series which outlined the basics. I'm sure there must be copies available still.
Don't know what I would do without it now!
Any chance of a link to that? I have got one and could use any help available. Adam

[ps_bond]

I saw some Youtube videos by Orion on using their welders - there may be some use in them?

This was a good read - www.silversmithing.com/puk.htm

[adam p]

I saw some Youtube videos by Orion on using their welders - there may be some use in them?

This was a good read - www.silversmithing.com/puk.htm
Abslolutely brilliant. Thanks very much for the link. This forum is proving to be an excellent find. Adam

[ps_bond]

You're welcome. I was actually looking for info on laser welding rather than arc...

[H H Wheen]

Any chance of a link to that? I have got one and could use any help available. Adam

There are excellent links on Youtube. Just search for Lampert Puk3
5586

[adam p]

There are excellent links on Youtube. Just search for Lampert Puk3
5586
Many thanks for that. Adam

[Wallace]

this makes me want a laser machine - must stop reading these posts :D lol

[Nick martin]

I originally started this thread some time ago because I was in the position to get one of these PUK 4 machines as a gift.

However I turned down the offer due to the cost involved, and because of the guilt factor, amongst other things!

Anyway since then I've constantly looked at these machines, viewed demonstration videos on the internet and so on. Andrew Berry did an short introduction video on the newest 4.1 version a short while ago too.

Whilst it was interesting to watch, theres still one thing puzzling me that I cant seem to work out. I grasp the technology and operation of the machine, thats the easy part, but its the welds themselves that confuse me.

For example if you were welding a bezel onto a backplate for instance, then are you left with an ugly weld / seam similar to those found on a bicycle frame, or are they minimally filleted as per a regular solder joint?
Its hard to gauge the relief of the welds from the videos I've seen, and I'm worried that there would be a hell of a lot of filing and cleaning up to do afterwards.

The other thing regarding the welds is that as the machine welds it appears to tarnish ( blacken ) the work area because of the localised electrical heat. As Argon gas is released at the time of the weld taking place, do the pieces still need pickling or does the Argon gas prevent oxidisation and therefore theres only really the usual polishing required on welded pieces?

Peter: I guess you 'may' well be able to answer these questions as the Laser system spot welds and appears to create joins of a similar appearance right?

Thanks,

Nick

[caroleallen]

Those are my concerns too Nick. Andrew Berry is supposed to be doing another video but I've been waiting patiently for such a long time :(

[ps_bond]

Purely from a laser perspective - the joints are more akin to TIG than anything else. The amount of fillet depends on how much filler you use; as with any other welding process, they're not all that tolerant of poor fit or manky metal.
I don't use argon all that much; only when the metal really requires it (eg Ti). There is some sooting - and with the laser on silver I scribble over the joint area with a black marker to kill reflection and improve heat absorption; I don't tend to need to do that for other metals. The soot brushes off (or more usually it goes when I blend the weld with a rubber polisher).

I can vary the beam diameter, which dictates the size of the weld (energy and duration are the other primary variables I can tweak, there's also pulse shaping which can be useful at times). The laser's refire rate means that although they're strictly spot welds, I can overlap them in a continuous seam, it's not a 1-shot job in the same way as I've seen done with the PUKs.

Everything's done at magnification, so what will seem like an ugly weld won't look anything like as bad when it's out from under the scope.

Biggest thing to remember is that solder will flow as a capillary joint, welds do not - if you haven't welded the root of the joint, welding the outside won't give it any strength.

[Nick martin]

Purely from a laser perspective - the joints are more akin to TIG than anything else. The amount of fillet depends on how much filler you use; as with any other welding process, they're not all that tolerant of poor fit or manky metal.
I don't use argon all that much; only when the metal really requires it (eg Ti). There is some sooting - and with the laser on silver I scribble over the joint area with a black marker to kill reflection and improve heat absorption; I don't tend to need to do that for other metals. The soot brushes off (or more usually it goes when I blend the weld with a rubber polisher).


I can vary the beam diameter, which dictates the size of the weld (energy and duration are the other primary variables I can tweak, there's also pulse shaping which can be useful at times). The laser's refire rate means that although they're strictly spot welds, I can overlap them in a continuous seam, it's not a 1-shot job in the same way as I've seen done with the PUKs.

Everything's done at magnification, so what will seem like an ugly weld won't look anything like as bad when it's out from under the scope.

Biggest thing to remember is that solder will flow as a capillary joint, welds do not - if you haven't welded the root of the joint, welding the outside won't give it any strength.

Thanks Peter, forgot about the effect the high magnification has on the appearance of the weld!

Also 'sooting' is the term I was looking for and its useful to know that its not the same process to get rid of it as it is with copper oxide coming to the surface in silver and gold.

Keep meaning to book a demonstration in Birmingham with Suttons, and then that will finally answer any niggling questions I've got, as I've not yet seen a PUK in the flesh so to speak.

Thanks for the input Peter, appreciated as always.

Nick

[arel]

hello nick martin, after many years what evolved with puk 04 ?

[Dennis]

Ha ha, this forum is well known for its time travellers.
Unfortunately, Nick martin was captured by Daleks. Dennis.

[Wallace]

Ha ha, this forum is well known for its time travellers.
Unfortunately, Nick martin was captured by Daleks. Dennis.

but not as cute as my one for my degree ;) 12334

[Dennis]

Very cute Wallace. Looks as if it might speak. Dennis.