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Eleftheria
06-12-2013, 05:12 PM
Hello everyone, my first post here so please be gentle.

I have been wondering about these 925 stamps that I see being sold all over the place, but cant seem to find a answer anywhere.

I am well aware that things that are stamped 925 are not always silver, it makes me cringe seeing the stamps being sold on ebay to scrap dealers, the gold ones too. I am assuming to stamp something thats not silver with 925 would be a trading standards jobby, but what about stamping actual silver 925, is that ok?
I'm meaning over 7 grams in place of a hallmark.

I keep seeing places selling silver jewellery with just 925, which is clearly over the 7grams, I always thought it must be properly hallmarked, but now i'm a bit confused.
:snowman:

Wallace
06-12-2013, 05:39 PM
Hi Eleftheria,

there is plenty of information via the Assay offices for legal advice on this and the Hallmark Guidance available at each assay website advises on the legality of it all. But, for you to know that there is a weight requirement, I am guessing you may have some idea already.

Common sense does lead you correctly to the fact that if an item is not as it is claimed to be, there is a trading standards issue. If it is over 7.78g and claiming to be silver, the seller is committing an offence under the current act. Letting the Assay office know and trading standards, is beneficial.

925 has no legal hallmarking standard in the UK. All new UK hallmarking has appropriate marks of standardisation from each office that remains assaying. Each item requires a sponsor mark. Some offices add the year letter automatically. It is a shame there is no regulation on these stamps. They are nuisance and flood the market with people thinking it is okay to add to any item - which, I guess it is potentially. Hence the issues that are becoming prevalent. I have seen items lasered with 925 with a claim to be silver and in fact have been plated pewter (very pliable).

Our Hallmarking expert LAOSTEVE should be able to advise more appropriately. I can only say that the guidance explains that items under 7.78g are currently exempt from any assay or hallmark. Over this, there is a requirement to do so in order to call the item silver. Exemptions exist, such as being able to demonstrate and evidence something is pre-1950; any article which is intended for dispatch outside of the UK; raw materials, or even coins to name only a few examples outlined in the guidance documentation.

It is good to ask questions, but really sad to hear that this situation continues at such a high rate. I did read either last year or the year before that someone suggested lowering the weight for silver, given its surge in value. Nothing came of it, I guess it would mean a lot of people wouldn't be able to make things any more.


Welcome to the forum, do share with us more about you.

a link to Hallmarking guidance note courtesy of London Assay Office (http://www.thegoldsmiths.co.uk/media/3898647/hallmark%20guidance%20leaflet%20update2011.pdf)(LA O)
kindest,
Wallace

CJ57
06-12-2013, 07:31 PM
Hi and welcome from me too. Everything that Wallace has said re hall marking is correct too :)

Dennis
06-12-2013, 08:23 PM
Sorry, those stamps cannot be used instead of hallmarking if you are selling to the public and the weight requires it. Should you wish to avoid the expense of registering with an assay office, they will hallmark pieces for you with their own sponsor's mark.

Welcome to the forum, Dennis.

Eleftheria
06-12-2013, 10:16 PM
Thankyou for the replies guys :)

Just to make it clear, I have no intention on using anything other than the proper hallmarks on my work.
Both me and my mum, who is also a silversmith use a lot of recycled silver and have come across a few cases of 925 non silver pieces so generally advise customers to only buy proper hallmarked silver, but I was never sure if 925 was definitely not a legal hallmark, I thought there may be a grey area if that makes sense.

Thankyou for the welcomes too :)

SteveLAO
09-12-2013, 09:31 AM
Morning all and welcome to Eleftheria!,
The 925 stamp on its own means nothing, and certainly cannot be used in place of a hallmark. As previously mentioned, you can buy these stamps easily, and I see that many people use them for marking silver items which are under the 7.78g requirement weight. (It then does not become a hallmarking act issue, but more of a trade descriptions issue I guess?)
925 only means that it is sterling silver when it forms part of a complete hallmark, which as a minimum must include the unique sponsor mark and the town mark. (The traditional fineness symbol, for example lion passant for silver, and the date letter are now optional and not compulsory and more, but we put them on anyway for no extra charge!..)
As mentioned, it's also easy to stamp 925 on non silver items and try to pass them off as silver, which is why many people have all their silver items marked, regardless of weight.

SteveLAO
09-12-2013, 09:45 AM
Dennis, I can't of course speak for the other offices, but at LAO, we will only use "our" sponsor mark as a one off. For example if a member of the public who bought an item abroad and wants it marked brings it in, we wouldn't expect them to have to register, so we will just mark it LAO. We generally do not do "repeats" of the LAO mark for the same customer. The whole point of the sponsor mark is to identify the individual or company so if we keep using LAO for an individual then essentially it's an anonymous mark. If a customer is bringing in more than the odd one item then they will need to register their own mark.



Sorry, those stamps cannot be used instead of hallmarking if you are selling to the public and the weight requires it. Should you wish to avoid the expense of registering with an assay office, they will hallmark pieces for you with their own sponsor's mark.

Welcome to the forum, Dennis.

LydiaNiz
09-12-2013, 12:00 PM
i had a semi-row on Facebook about this kind of thing the other day. Another local jewellery maker selling an imported 19g unhallmarked 'silver' chain, and when I pointed out the hallmarking issue said that they'd informed the buyer that it 'might not be' so it was ok. Hmmm...

ps_bond
09-12-2013, 12:06 PM
It's not limited to small makers either - I've had a not-dissimilar discussion with a large silver retailer who regularly exhibits at equestrian events. They don't feel the need to display the hallmarking council sign and every larger piece I've seen in the past has only been marked 925 only. A bit of a cowboy attitude all told. I've tried the trading standards route in the past but that hasn't got very far.

As well as the consumer protection issues, there is also the level playing field to consider.

SteveLAO
09-12-2013, 02:31 PM
Absolutely! These people need to understand the seriousness of the offence! Up to £5000 per article, confiscation of items and up to 2 years in jail! Failure to display the dealers notice is a fine of up to £5000! Oh and BTW it does need to be a CURRENT dealers notice, and not any old one either.....I've seen that too, and there's no excuse as the current dealers notice is available as a free download!! TS are up to their eyes investigating these "cowboys". Do let me know with all the details if you spot these characters and we can follow up too alongside TS......
We've worked with TS authorities to confiscate over £200K of unhallmarked jewellery from ONE dealer not so long ago...so we do have successes!!

Lydianiz....what a lame excuse.....he's offering it for sale as silver without a hallmark...an open and shut case!! Grrrrrrrrr.....

Keia
09-12-2013, 05:41 PM
I've been thinking about buying one of those "925" stamps from ebay and keeping it on display on any stalls I have, purely to demonstrate the importance of full hallmarks & how 925 on it's own means nothing & how easy to is to obtain one of those stamps. It's astonishing how many people do not know what a hallmark is and they geniunely do believe that the presence of the "925" alone means it's sterling silver.
As a crafter and seller of sterling silver, I kinda feel it's my responsibilty to help show clients (or potential clients) what hallmarks are and what they mean etc.
I'm always posting information and videos etc on my selling facebook page about hallmarks.

It upsets me as I know of someone who sells all the time and they're not even hallmark registered. Everything they sell, be it over or under the legal weight is never, ever hallmarked. Despite many times being reported, they're still doing it and have been at it for decades!!!!
Some play by the rules and others don't I guess. xx

P.s - I have everything possible sent to assay for hallmarking, no matter how tiny ;)

Kermit
09-12-2013, 08:28 PM
This has made very interesting reading. Over the last year or so I have developed the silver side of my jewellery and now sell items made by myself - at above and below the hallmarking limit. Reading up I realised that I needed to display the hallmarking notice - so duly laminated a couple of copies and always have them on display. I hallmark all items above the limite (and some below).

So, at the weekend, attending a Christmas Fair, had a walk round to see what other jewellery was there. Several beaded type ones that I wouldn't expect to find the notice as not needed. One or two saying handmade jewellery that I suspect should have. Then one seller who buys in (ie not handmade) all silver items. Hallmarking not mentioned and no signs displayed apart from those saying silver jewellery. This is his job, not just a hobby (but I don't know the business name as he never displays one!). I've seen this repeatedly lately.

Does anyone ever approach a stallholder and ask about hallmarking? What if you are a stall holder at the same fair.......

Dennis
09-12-2013, 09:22 PM
Well a shouting match between stall holders would be rather undignified, but you can point out to customers who are interested in your work, that it is properly hallmarked.

You might also protest to the organisers after the event, that it is bad for their reputation if participants flout the law. Dennis.

pearlescence
09-12-2013, 11:28 PM
The organisers don't care most of the time.

SteveLAO
10-12-2013, 09:29 AM
When I go to fairs like this I always chat with the stallholders about hallmarking...some are genuinely ignorant about the law, particularly regarding the dealers notice, but others just don't give a damn, and with those ones I generally walk away with their card and follow up later along with TS. Dennis is absolutely right...a shouting match on site won't achieve anything....I have to say though that the majority are really switched on regarding the law and are proud to display their dealers notice and tell me about their hallmarking and their chosen assay office :)

Summer
10-12-2013, 12:35 PM
Interesting read, I still buy in some components, e.g lobster clasps, (as I can't make them) and these have the 925 stamp on them, they are added to some beaded Jewelry, surely I don't need to get these fully hallmarked do I?

I did a fair over the weekend and proudly displayed and talked about my hallmark and makers mark, one lady loved a piece of my work, walked round and came back for a second look then said, "you can never be sure, i'll stick to a jewelry shop" Lol

SteveLAO
10-12-2013, 12:49 PM
.....and that's when you can come straight back and tell her that it's all hallmarked so it's been independently tested! It's the whole point of the mark..that no matter where its for sale the hallmark is guaranteeing the metal!!
Ah well...you can't win them all...maybe next time :)

The lobster clasps etc will be under the 7.78g threshold and so won't need to be hallmarked. Findings are usually classed as "working parts" anyway......and we don't hallmark them separately.

donnie
10-12-2013, 07:52 PM
Hi all, An interesting post, assume I make a ring just over 7g, I intend to sell it for say £35. how much would I have to add to cover hall marking post etc.


DONNIE








www.silver-n-things.co.uk

Dennis
10-12-2013, 08:16 PM
I think you are starting from a false premise, Donnie. You can't decide how much to sell it for, until you have added all the expenses and your hourly rate. Hallmarking is not optional, so it is an expense. It consists of a proportion of your setting up expenses, the assay office charge depending on how many items you will have sent together and the return postage.

Packing, postage and insurance to the customer are then added separately.

Our members spent eleven pages discussing a suitable hourly rate and how to arrive at the retail price here: http://www.cooksongold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4806 Happy Reading. Dennis.

donnie
11-12-2013, 04:07 AM
Hi , Thank you for the informed reply Dennis, the eleven pages of members discussion on how to arrive at a retail price is very interesting. I maybe did not word my post very well, I was trying to get my head round the fact that the material cost in a 8g/9g ring lets say just for discussion £10, I struggle to see a good reason to add a further £20/£30 or there about just to let the customer know yes indeed it is worth about a tenner. Gold on the other hand I can understand this. Is there a need to raise the 7.78g limit on sterling silver regarding hallmarking or is that another thread. Or indeed a thread from the past.

DONNIE

ps_bond
11-12-2013, 06:31 AM
You may have noticed I have a bee in my bonnet about the subject :)

The thing to remember is you're not simply selling on a piece of metal at a profit - you're actually adding quite a lot of value to it. There are ancillary costs alongside it - packaging, hallmarking, consumables (e.g. polishing, burrs etc.); then there's the cost of selling it: If it's sold in a gallery, then the cost of sale has to include lighting, wages, insurance and everything else.

Your £10 bit of silver has gone through a number of transformations already, each with attendant costs. The ore it was mined from probably didn't cost very much, but everyone in the chain has to be paid.

As for assay costs - while I hand-carried my last packet in to London (reduced the postage cost, increased my time costs - but there were other things I needed to do too), I put it through as Early Hall and paid just under £2 per piece including return shipping. I don't think that's excessive, but I appreciate that the costs on smaller packets can bump things up a lot.

donnie
11-12-2013, 06:59 AM
I seem to have developed a bit of a bee in my bunet also, is the hallmark there to guarantee that the 8g of 925 is indeed 925 and therefore worth a tenner. It is not a judge of any added value, the only added value seems to go to the assay office.(I did not realise in my ignorance it could be as little as £2 per item) I still think there is a case to increase the 7.78g for sterling silver.

DONNIE

Patstone
11-12-2013, 07:26 AM
Hallmarking is also my bone of contention. I live in Devon so chose the London Assay office, look out Steve here it comes. We chose London because we liked the hallmark!!!!!, and the people seemed really nice when I rang up initially. Here is my opinion, the Assay Office is a bit naughty putting a price for 5 items or under at £15 or whatever it is. Very often I get a commission and as I am a bit slow making and finishing, a job can take me up to a week, (its a hobby, not a 12 hours a day job, ) I do work most afternoons but only for a couple of hours if that depending on what else I or hubby wants to do. During that week, I dont normally make anything else, apart maybe for a pair of little earrings or something just for a change from something a bit more challenging. To send commission up to be hallmarked is £15 for 5 items or under, then add £5 for registered post to send up (normally in a chinese takeaway box with padding and in a jiffy bag). There is a nominal charge for hallmarking which I am fine with, but then they charge about £13 to send it back in the same box and jiffy bag that I sent up to start with, which I bought in the first place. It isnt as if it comes back by courier, its just the same post as I sent it up in so cost is £5, and they didnt have to supply packaging either. So an item that should have cost about £15 costs about £30. Most of the items I make I try to keep under 7.78 grams simply because the cost of the Assay office, so they are losing out, I would love to get all my things hallmarked but if I add £30 onto the cost of the item, it wouldnt sell in the craft markets. If I could spread the cost by putting more things in the bag, that would be different, but most of my things are pendants, rings and earrings, and as a hobby I dont spend all my spare time doing jewellery, I have retired and I plan to enjoy it.

ps_bond
11-12-2013, 07:30 AM
The primary reason for the hallmark is to guarantee to the consumer that the metal content is at least what it is stamped as. Nothing to do with the quality of workmanship (well, apart from showing it's not flooded with solder...), just it really is the metal it is claimed to be.

From the makers POV, you get your mark on the piece - if someone wants to know who made something, they can find out. There's also the intangibles of a piece of jewellery feeling more valuable if it has a hallmark on it (even if it didn't need it), pride in workmanship and the likes. I like to hallmark everything, regardless of the weight - and if I have smaller pieces around, they go in with a packet to make up the numbers too.

If I hadn't gone for early hall, the hallmarking cost would probably have been closer £1.30 per piece.

ps_bond
11-12-2013, 07:39 AM
So an item that should have cost about £15 costs about £30.

Pat, no piece of handmade silver jewellery should cost £15. If it's a casting run into the 1000s, then maybe.
As for the Assay Office costs - well, I'll leave that to Steve, but it's worth remembering that there's a fixed cost per packet, effectively; I doubt it takes much longer to do the paperwork on a packet with 30 items as it does for a packet with 1 item.

SteveLAO
11-12-2013, 09:48 AM
Patstone....you were charged £13 to send it back? We charge £3.25 per packet for the handling of return postage.....and then whatever the post office charge to send the packet back by the same way as it arrived. £3.25 covers things like the salary of the guy whose job it is to collect your items from the marking floor, take it to dispatch, recover your packaging ( we always use customers own packaging so that there can be no issues with us "using the wrong or insufficient packaging" ), rewrap your parcel and then take it to the post office. When you compare it to other handling charges in other industries, (for example the checking service for your passport which involves someone at the counter glancing over your application and telling you that you've signed outside the box....all for £8.75) it's not that bad and I think in line with the other offices.
Regarding minimum charges, these are also in line with the other offices, apart from our charge for 1 to 2 items, which is the least expensive of all the other offices. It's not so much being "naughty", as the time involved in handling small packets. 10 packets each with one item does take far longer to process than one parcel of 10 items, and so the charges simply reflect this.
Donnie, you're right, the hallmark is a guarantee of the fineness of the metal, not the quality of the manufacture, but a hallmarked item also has added value in the eyes of the public, so a "white coloured metal" ring of 8g would not sell as well, or for as much, as a "hallmarked Sterling silver" ring of 8g. (I know from personal experience!)7.78g was fixed as the equivalent to the old 5 pennyweights and I think it was thought that items of silver under that weight, at the time the law was passed, was not worth hallmarking. On the other hand, in Ireland, there is no weight limit for silver and all items need to be hallmarked regardless of weight (with one or two exceptions)




Hallmarking is also my bone of contention. I live in Devon so chose the London Assay office, look out Steve here it comes. We chose London because we liked the hallmark!!!!!, and the people seemed really nice when I rang up initially. Here is my opinion, the Assay Office is a bit naughty putting a price for 5 items or under at £15 or whatever it is. Very often I get a commission and as I am a bit slow making and finishing, a job can take me up to a week, (its a hobby, not a 12 hours a day job, ) I do work most afternoons but only for a couple of hours if that depending on what else I or hubby wants to do. During that week, I dont normally make anything else, apart maybe for a pair of little earrings or something just for a change from something a bit more challenging. To send commission up to be hallmarked is £15 for 5 items or under, then add £5 for registered post to send up (normally in a chinese takeaway box with padding and in a jiffy bag). There is a nominal charge for hallmarking which I am fine with, but then they charge about £13 to send it back in the same box and jiffy bag that I sent up to start with, which I bought in the first place. It isnt as if it comes back by courier, its just the same post as I sent it up in so cost is £5, and they didnt have to supply packaging either. So an item that should have cost about £15 costs about £30. Most of the items I make I try to keep under 7.78 grams simply because the cost of the Assay office, so they are losing out, I would love to get all my things hallmarked but if I add £30 onto the cost of the item, it wouldnt sell in the craft markets. If I could spread the cost by putting more things in the bag, that would be different, but most of my things are pendants, rings and earrings, and as a hobby I dont spend all my spare time doing jewellery, I have retired and I plan to enjoy it.

SteveLAO
11-12-2013, 09:53 AM
PS Bond - the paperwork for one packet of 30 items would take about the same as one packet with one item.....but the processing of the packet would of course take much longer!

SteveLAO
11-12-2013, 10:04 AM
With regard to assay charges in general, of course I can't comment on the other offices but our guys go through a 4 year apprenticeship to become a qualified assayer and marker and to charge £10.00 for the services of such a specialist I don't think in the grand scheme of things is too bad :). Motor mechanic apprenticeships are also 4 years long, but I can't remember ever getting anything done to my car for £10.00!

Summer
11-12-2013, 12:04 PM
At the end of the day it's each to their own, take a horse to water and so on, I try to look at it from both sides, as a buyer and a maker. I have also fell foul of a seller, the item stamped 925 but I knew it wasn't, it seemed to cheep, so checked by scratching at the metal with a file, this revealed the copper underneath, so i think this help make my mind up.

I drove my items to Assay as the delivery price would have been about the same cost, I found the assay price very reasonable, and I can't wait to make more items and send them for assay, I then know I bought silver wire or sheet with a guaranteed minimum 925 content, I can assure buyers (although some have set ways of purchase) that they are getting genuine content, and in years to come someone may be able to say Oh my nan's pendant was made by (me)
Don't get me wrong I still have some pieces that are not yet hallmarked, but all my new pendants, rings and bangles will be sent for testing and hallmarking, no matter what the weight.

medusa
11-12-2013, 12:07 PM
I seem to have developed a bit of a bee in my bunet also, is the hallmark there to guarantee that the 8g of 925 is indeed 925 and therefore worth a tenner. It is not a judge of any added value, the only added value seems to go to the assay office.(I did not realise in my ignorance it could be as little as £2 per item) I still think there is a case to increase the 7.78g for sterling silver.

DONNIE
As someone who also sends in small, often single numbers of stuff made to commission, I automatically factor in £30 to cover the cost of hallmarking for each item. If I can send in 2 items, great, but usually it's just the single item. However, I think that BAO have recently brought in a minimum package for less than 5 items, because the last thing I got done cost £23. I was pleasantly surprised :)

Patstone
11-12-2013, 03:06 PM
My last item to be hallmarked was a 9ct gold wedding ring, made to the lady's design, very chunky and big with a very short inscription inside. Plenty of money in the item to cover the cost of the hallmarking, but my bill from the Assay Office was:-
Laser mark 1.00
Sponsors mark 0.20
Post and Packing using my packing !!!! 10.20
Minimum charge 9.00
Lettering M to E 4.50
VAT 4.98

Total 29.88

I realise that people have to be paid and that it takes skill and training to do the marking etc,and my issue isnt with that, but it only takes a couple of minutes to undo a parcel and repack. I have just posted a ring and it cost me £4.00 ish, five minutes to parcel up and take down to the Post Office after finding somewhere to park and sent Recorded delivery. Most of the items that I make are under £30, to add another £30 on the top would make it out of most normal peoples price range in this part of the world. We only make jewellery as a hobby, and sell at local craft shows, normally once a month, and people quibble about the price. We dont normally add in the charge of fuel to get there, or the cost of the table, and keep the cost of labour to a minimum, the most we ever sell is about 3 items each, so 6 in total (that is the average) total sales around £200. On the commissions, we add the charges for it all and make a reasonable profit, but that isnt very often. Our stuff isnt "tat", have a look at our website www.iscasilver.co.uk and you will see what we make and how much it is.

Dennis
11-12-2013, 03:30 PM
All this time I have been wondering about the mysterious 7.7g maximum weight for not hallmarking.

Looking at the conversion tables, it seems that this was originally a conversion from the archaic unit of weight, the grain.

120 grains= 7.78 grams, or roughly a quarter of an ounce. Dennis.

SteveLAO
11-12-2013, 03:39 PM
Patstone - Of course I do understand your situation, and I've already had a look on your website. The items you sell for £30ish and under.....do they still weigh over the 7.78g requirement? Many of them look as if they might be under the weight required for marking so you would not need to have them marked and thus save you some money. They seem very reasonably priced for silver and some with stones!
In addition, as I'm sure you know from experience, sending in one item on its own for marking is also the most expensive way (despite nearly 25% of your bill being post office charges over which we have no control!).
Why not save up all the items you need to mark and if you do your shows once a month then just send us in one parcel a month?

SteveLAO
11-12-2013, 03:40 PM
It was originally 5 pennyweights. One pennyweight was the original weight of one penny in the time of the saxons, and it was the equivalent to 24 grains of barley! So you're right with your 120 grains!!


All this time I have been wondering about the mysterious 7.7g maximum weight for not hallmarking.

Looking at the conversion tables, it seems that this was originally a conversion from the archaic unit of weight, the grain.

120 grains= 7.78 grams, or roughly a quarter of an ounce. Dennis.

Patstone
11-12-2013, 04:56 PM
Quite a lot of the stuff on the website has been hallmarked, sent in a job lot with my daughter's. Normally we do send up a parcel of things, but it cant always be done, as sometimes time is short, and if we have a poor month at the craft fair........ I would love to be able to send everything up to you, I think its quite prestigious to have a hallmark, and it looks more professional too. My "hobby" has to pay for itself so I have to keep the costs down. Sam is working at the Donkey Sanctuary and gets exhausted by the end of the day, she does a manual job, and works 12 hour days so that she can take Wednesdays off to make jewellery so her "output" is minimal. We have three months now until the next craft fair to get cracking, and produce nice things.

medusa
12-12-2013, 08:22 PM
My last item to be hallmarked was a 9ct gold wedding ring, made to the lady's design, very chunky and big with a very short inscription inside. Plenty of money in the item to cover the cost of the hallmarking, but my bill from the Assay Office was:-
Laser mark 1.00
Sponsors mark 0.20
Post and Packing using my packing !!!! 10.20
Minimum charge 9.00
Lettering M to E 4.50
VAT 4.98

Total 29.88

I realise that people have to be paid and that it takes skill and training to do the marking etc,and my issue isnt with that, but it only takes a couple of minutes to undo a parcel and repack. I have just posted a ring and it cost me £4.00 ish, five minutes to parcel up and take down to the Post Office after finding somewhere to park and sent Recorded delivery. Most of the items that I make are under £30, to add another £30 on the top would make it out of most normal peoples price range in this part of the world. We only make jewellery as a hobby, and sell at local craft shows, normally once a month, and people quibble about the price. We dont normally add in the charge of fuel to get there, or the cost of the table, and keep the cost of labour to a minimum, the most we ever sell is about 3 items each, so 6 in total (that is the average) total sales around £200. On the commissions, we add the charges for it all and make a reasonable profit, but that isnt very often. Our stuff isnt "tat", have a look at our website www.iscasilver.co.uk and you will see what we make and how much it is.

Pat, the stuff I sell to commission is worth adding in the thirty quid for hallmarking because, apart from the legal requirements, I usually don't charge less than £200, more often £400. The stuff I sell for under £100 is not to commission and so gets sent in as a job lot but I don't think I would bother hallmarking anything that sold for less than £30, it's just not worth the cost. £10.20 P&P is outrageous and well over actual cost even for domestic customers. What is the lettering charge?

And I know well your stuff is beautifully made and I'm pretty sure I've said before that I think that you seriously undercharge.

CJ57
12-12-2013, 08:56 PM
I've never seen your website before Pat and your work is really well made and beautifully finished and I have to agree that you are underselling yourself, you could/should charge at least that price again I would have thought

SteveLAO
13-12-2013, 09:03 AM
£10.20.......£3.25 handling and £6.95 royal mail.....


Pat, the stuff I sell to commission is worth adding in the thirty quid for hallmarking because, apart from the legal requirements, I usually don't charge less than £200, more often £400. The stuff I sell for under £100 is not to commission and so gets sent in as a job lot but I don't think I would bother hallmarking anything that sold for less than £30, it's just not worth the cost. £10.20 P&P is outrageous and well over actual cost even for domestic customers. What is the lettering charge?

And I know well your stuff is beautifully made and I'm pretty sure I've said before that I think that you seriously undercharge.

pearlescence
13-12-2013, 09:28 AM
Many other shippers, most of them more reliable and cheaper than royal mail for secure. Other shippers pay proper compensation too.LAO please review.

SteveLAO
13-12-2013, 10:24 AM
We always ship back by the same method as the customer sends to us.


Many other shippers, most of them more reliable and cheaper than royal mail for secure. Other shippers pay proper compensation too.LAO please review.

ps_bond
13-12-2013, 11:12 AM
On the compensation front: Someone I know who makes goods in a different field has had an immense fight with RM over failure to pay. He shipped - RMSD - with a level of compensation appropriate to the £800 price tag; they lost it. Then felt that they were only liable for the raw materials. And so it went on... Took him around 8 months to get paid; no extra consideration for the time it took him dealing with their intransigence.

CJ57
13-12-2013, 12:54 PM
We always ship back by the same method as the customer sends to us.

Edinburgh has a tick box on their form so you can choose which method. If you don't tick they'll return by same method. I've never had any problems with them and think their prices are fair

Patstone
13-12-2013, 06:37 PM
The lettering charge I guess is for the small inscription she wanted inside the ring.



Pat, the stuff I sell to commission is worth adding in the thirty quid for hallmarking because, apart from the legal requirements, I usually don't charge less than £200, more often £400. The stuff I sell for under £100 is not to commission and so gets sent in as a job lot but I don't think I would bother hallmarking anything that sold for less than £30, it's just not worth the cost. £10.20 P&P is outrageous and well over actual cost even for domestic customers. What is the lettering charge?

And I know well your stuff is beautifully made and I'm pretty sure I've said before that I think that you seriously undercharge.

pearlescence
14-12-2013, 06:40 AM
Hi Steve, no you don't. I send by my courier, you return by RM

SteveLAO
16-12-2013, 11:06 AM
That may be because if goods are sent in by courier then the sender needs to make the necessary arrangements with the courier for collection. We then return it via the courier. If no such arrangements have been made by the sender then we will return by post, or if the sender marks on the hallnote a different method of return, then we will follow their instructions.
It's obviously difficult for me to comment on a specific, but the point I was trying to get across was that if goods come in by post, then we won't hire a courier to return it, we will return it by post. Similarly, if goods arrive by courier, and arrangements have been made to return it via courier, and the courier's fees have been paid by the sender, then we will work with the courier to return it the same way.
We're very happy to return goods by whatever method the sender requests, but if they don't want us to use the post, then they need to tell us and make the necessary arrangements.


Hi Steve, no you don't. I send by my courier, you return by RM

chrisg
16-12-2013, 04:05 PM
Hi all

Thanks for a very interesting read! Can I just ask (for clarity): if I sell a silver item weighing more than 7.78 grams, am I obliged to have it hallmarked? I currently make small things up to 5 grams - they are all 925 from places like Cooksons, Rashbel etc. I have not stamped them but have assured people they are sterling silver. If I make some bigger pieces then the hallmarking issue would add a significant overhead in terms of cost and time... I'd rather not do it unless I have to.. although I would like to have my own hallmark.. :)

All the best

Chris

medusa
16-12-2013, 04:40 PM
Hi Chris, yep, if it's over 7.78g then by law it must be hallmarked before selling. I do however know a lot of jewellers who don't get their stuff hallmarked (including one who works almost exclusively in 22k gold) and nothing has ever happened to them. I'm not, I hasten to add, condoning such actions.

SteveLAO
16-12-2013, 05:00 PM
Hmm..yes I think the phrase to note there is "by law". There are jewellers who break the law and evade hallmarking, but the trading standards "hit rate" is remarkably high in catching offenders. I know of one jewellery shop which was caught with £200K of unhallmarked jewellery!! It was all confiscated and I do believe they're now out of business. This offence in the "olden days" was punishable by death!! These days its a fine of up to £5K per offence and/or confiscation of the item(s) and/or a prison sentence, so quite harsh punishments. It can be a significant overhead, but regrettably with the law as it stands it has to be done.


Hi Chris, yep, if it's over 7.78g then by law it must be hallmarked before selling. I do however know a lot of jewellers who don't get their stuff hallmarked (including one who works almost exclusively in 22k gold) and nothing has ever happened to them. I'm not, I hasten to add, condoning such actions.

medusa
16-12-2013, 05:09 PM
Out of curiosity, how is TS assessed as having a good hit rate? I would have thought it impossible to be sure of the prevalence of non-compliance especially as there seem to be increasing numbers of people producing items made from precious metals in a variety of ways. Personally it pees me off no end when I see people selling unhallmarked items.

theresa
16-12-2013, 05:24 PM
Out of curiosity, how is TS assessed as having a good hit rate? I would have thought it impossible to be sure of the prevalence of non-compliance especially as there seem to be increasing numbers of people producing items made from precious metals in a variety of ways. Personally it pees me off no end when I see people selling unhallmarked items.

On a slightly different tack, I have noticed a lot of fork/spoon jewellery that was hallmarked being sold on without the benefit of a change of use certificate.
How do they get away with it? A couple of times I have advised the seller (politely) of the situation but they didn't even bother to reply.
I recently made a bangle using a pair of Georgian sugar tongs and had to pay dearly for the cert.

Theresa

ps_bond
16-12-2013, 06:01 PM
This offence in the "olden days" was punishable by death!!

You're *sure* that's been repealed? :'(

SteveLAO
17-12-2013, 09:25 AM
Yes there does seem to have been an increase in these fork/spoon to ring and bangle conversions. They MUST have a change of use certificate before they can legally resell or they are breaking the hallmarking act. We do try to get involved with as many of these people as we can but there are only 4 offices and a LOT of these guys so we do as much as we can with the limited resource available. It's very difficult to chase and get them all and although TS do follow up, I'm not sure if hallmarking violations take as much importance as anti-freeze being sold as vodka!


On a slightly different tack, I have noticed a lot of fork/spoon jewellery that was hallmarked being sold on without the benefit of a change of use certificate.
How do they get away with it? A couple of times I have advised the seller (politely) of the situation but they didn't even bother to reply.
I recently made a bangle using a pair of Georgian sugar tongs and had to pay dearly for the cert.

Theresa

SteveLAO
17-12-2013, 09:30 AM
The high hit rate equates to the amount of convictions they get per reported offence. You're right, you cannot even begin to guess how many violations of the act there are out there, but I understand the TS seem to get a result from the vast majority of the cases they investigate. They do need the eagle eyes of everyone to report such offences though, so don't be afraid of getting in touch with your local TS officer if you see things which you know to be wrong!



Out of curiosity, how is TS assessed as having a good hit rate? I would have thought it impossible to be sure of the prevalence of non-compliance especially as there seem to be increasing numbers of people producing items made from precious metals in a variety of ways. Personally it pees me off no end when I see people selling unhallmarked items.

SteveLAO
17-12-2013, 09:32 AM
Regrettably so... :(

You're *sure* that's been repealed? :'(

Anna Wales
17-12-2013, 10:53 AM
Yes there does seem to have been an increase in these fork/spoon to ring and bangle conversions. They MUST have a change of use certificate before they can legally resell or they are breaking the hallmarking act. We do try to get involved with as many of these people as we can but there are only 4 offices and a LOT of these guys so we do as much as we can with the limited resource available. It's very difficult to chase and get them all and although TS do follow up, I'm not sure if hallmarking violations take as much importance as anti-freeze being sold as vodka!
Is it not the case that we as jewellery makers are very aware of the Hallmarking laws and know of the need for a change of use certificate. I would hazard a guess that as the level of skill involved to make these things is negligible, the people doing it are not jewellery makers and probably have no idea that they are breaking the law. Steve, as there has been this explosion in these items, is there a need for TS offices to be reminded about this matter ( assuming they know of it to begin with ) and would this be something that the Assay Offices could do as a group?

SteveLAO
17-12-2013, 10:58 AM
We have a dedicated TS liaison officer on our staff, who already works closely with the TS offices and does keep them updated. I think though as far as TS are concerned, as I mentioned before, its a question of priorities for them, which is a shame. And of course so much is being sold via ebay.......

LydiaNiz
17-12-2013, 08:28 PM
I'm wondering if you're thinking of a fairly well-known jewellery maker who uses coins as well?
I do get fed up with it - particularly when you know it's nonsense. A lady I know insists all her pieces are underweight, but I know from experience how heavy certain guages of wire gold rings are, and that it can't possibly be below 1g. Anyway, I must relax. I'll possibly live longer. (Has just forked out for an early hall for one piece. Ouch).

SteveLAO
18-12-2013, 09:02 AM
If you want to name and shame I'd be happy to follow it up??



I'm wondering if you're thinking of a fairly well-known jewellery maker who uses coins as well?
I do get fed up with it - particularly when you know it's nonsense. A lady I know insists all her pieces are underweight, but I know from experience how heavy certain guages of wire gold rings are, and that it can't possibly be below 1g. Anyway, I must relax. I'll possibly live longer. (Has just forked out for an early hall for one piece. Ouch).

Patstone
18-12-2013, 09:24 AM
Just out of interest, I made a pendant recently for my niece, it was a commemoration coin that was to fit in the middle of it, it was removable and slightly over the hallmarking weight, but as it was a gift I dont think it needs hallmarking. If, sometime in the future she wanted to sell it, would she have to get it hallmarked, I dont suppose it would ever happen, but its to commemorate her wedding and the coin was left to her by her father-in-law when he died. The coin is Italian and not valuable.

SteveLAO
18-12-2013, 09:28 AM
Hi Patstone...you're right, the act says ...."in the course of a trade or business"......and clearly a gift to your niece is neither of these! Thank you for your confession, and you can now have a lovely Christmas safe in the knowledge that we have no intention of sending the boys round!


Just out of interest, I made a pendant recently for my niece, it was a commemoration coin that was to fit in the middle of it, it was removable and slightly over the hallmarking weight, but as it was a gift I dont think it needs hallmarking. If, sometime in the future she wanted to sell it, would she have to get it hallmarked, I dont suppose it would ever happen, but its to commemorate her wedding and the coin was left to her by her father-in-law when he died. The coin is Italian and not valuable.

CJ57
18-12-2013, 02:22 PM
Damn you've for me thinking about recycled forks and spoons now. There is a shop a few miles away that does local craft as well as fair trade. She sent me an email on my FB page to say that although my work was amazing her words not mine if I would make stuff for 30 40 or 50 then she would be willing to share my page. It doesn't matter that every time you go in you spend at least £40 and £2.30 for coffee that takes her 2 mins to make so that's a hell of an hourly rate. Sorry got off the point she has riled me so much!!!
I have tried to explain to her about hand made and the costs of hallmarking and materials etc but she actually doesn't get it as this isn't the first time she has done this. She sells locally 'made' fork and spoon jewellery, I wonder if it is legal?? Damned if I'm going to give her any money this Christmas but I'll have a look should I cross her threshold when I have calmed down :)

Anna Wales
18-12-2013, 02:55 PM
Having made a few spoons in the past and knowing the time and effort they take, seeing some of the lovely work on some of the spoons that have been made into these rings and thinking about the makers in the past who put their time, passion and skill into creating them in the first place, how can you regard it as re-cycling when you are ruining their work. Sorry but I really find it so sad to see these things.

medusa
18-12-2013, 03:24 PM
….. I would make stuff for 30 40 or 50 then she would be willing to share my page. It doesn't matter that every time you go in you spend at least £40 and £2.30 for coffee that takes her 2 mins to make so that's a hell of an hourly rate. Sorry got off the point she has riled me so much!!!
I have tried to explain to her about hand made and the costs of hallmarking and materials etc but she actually doesn't get it as this isn't the first time she has done this. She sells locally 'made' fork and spoon jewellery, I wonder if it is legal?? Damned if I'm going to give her any money this Christmas but I'll have a look should I cross her threshold when I have calmed down :)

yeah, you should totally outsource all your designs to the far east and sell them for a fraction of the price. (coincidentally on similar lines, I met the owner of a local jewellers chain this summer who 'loved' my seaweed stuff but didn't understand why I didn't make it lighter and then get it all reproduced by his factory in Mexico so it could sell cheaper. He didn't get that the casting process of seaweed makes the one-off stuff he liked so... one-off).


Having made a few spoons in the past and knowing the time and effort they take, seeing some of the lovely work on some of the spoons that have been made into these rings and thinking about the makers in the past who put their time, passion and skill into creating them in the first place, how can you regard it as re-cycling when you are ruining their work. Sorry but I really find it so sad to see these things.

I kind of know what you mean but I also kind of like the myth behind them (I've never actually seen anything contemporaneous which supports the servant story as being factual) and I would imagine that they would just end up getting melted for scrap otherwise. Also I'm sure a lot of the later ones would have been stamped out rather than handmade.

SteveLAO
18-12-2013, 04:56 PM
a great deal of these cutlery conversions have been done with non silver items, which of course is fine :) It's only when you use already hallmarked silver cutlery that you need to get the change of use cert. Here's a pic of one we did ages ago just FYI so you can see what they look like.....this is of course assuming that I've sussed out how to upload a picture!!
5468

TheEnameller
19-12-2013, 12:54 AM
Another benefit of using the assay office, besides the legal requirement is laser etching.

They did a wonderful job for my brother at London. Though you can't see the hallmark because it's blurry (the pic not hallmark) , you can see the laser engraved signature.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nfCu6tseE1Y/UrAp_L-M64I/AAAAAAAAKOg/EEf09M5BgJc/s1600/rearview.jpg

(Image taken from Grey Fox blog, I'll ask him to email me a better image).

SteveLAO
19-12-2013, 09:09 AM
Thanks TheEnameller.....I'm so pleased you liked it :) It is the beauty of lasering......we can transfer pretty much any image onto metal.

Myosotis
19-12-2013, 11:23 PM
Having made a few spoons in the past and knowing the time and effort they take, seeing some of the lovely work on some of the spoons that have been made into these rings and thinking about the makers in the past who put their time, passion and skill into creating them in the first place, how can you regard it as re-cycling when you are ruining their work. Sorry but I really find it so sad to see these things.

I completely agree - I'd like to hope that people that "recycle" antique silver flatware make the effort to research the makers mark before they hack something apart. Some silversmiths' work can be either rare or very collectible and the presence of particular makers marks can add much more value than just the silver value alone

michelle dolby
10-01-2014, 02:25 PM
This is very useful to know , i never new that one :) thank you Dennis as i was just being nosy reading having 5 mins lol xx