Hello

[cfb]

Hi, my name is Clare. I started making jewellery a long time ago but have not made anything for about 15 years. Did have a hallmark and still have the stamp but I have gone back to using my maiden name and have not done anything about it. Maybe one day.

I do have a bit of a problem though if anyone can help. I have been making a man's bangle out of thick brass about 1.5mm it will be flat 17cm with a 3cm gap. I have never worked with brass before and thought I would cut and solder some silver initials for the middle and put two little silver caps on either end of the bangle, just top side. Problem I have never worked with brass and I am using silver solder. I started with hard but it just was not running so I thought I would bring it down to easy particularly as the silver is very different in gauge to the brass and it is still not soldering. I am wondering if the torch I use, a small Ronson is actually man enough to get the brass hot enough, maybe I need to up the size of the torch? I need help::help:

[SteveLAO]

Hi Clare and welcome. Happy and ready to sort out your hallmarking issues when "one day" comes along :)

[Patstone]

Hi Steve, I have almost finished the 2mm thick ring for a commission, never again, pain to bend, eventually had to bend it in a vice. Anyway "woman" still wants an inscription on the inside, the ring is 1cm wide, so can it be on two or three lines. Its 9ct and think a laser hallmark may be better as there wont be much room for a stamped one unless its done sideways. I have to make it a tad bigger, then it will be winging its way to you.

[Myosotis]

Hi Clare

Sounds like the bangle is not getting hot enough for the solder to flow and you need a beefier torch. Different people have their favourites but I'm quite partial to this one http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/GoSystem_AT2071_DIY_Auto_Gas_Blow_Torch.html soldering/blowlamps/GoSystem-Blow-Torch-11248041 .Good on large pieces, up to 1600C so nice and hot although has a tendency to go out while using sometimes. Can still get them from Wicks and B&Q
I think

[Truffle & Podge]

Hi Clare & welcome, sorry can't help with the soldering issue it's my nemesis lol. Does brass have quite low heat conductivity though? X

[SteveLAO]

Hi Pat.....oh we do like a challenge.....:)

[Tabby66]

Welcome Clare!!

It does sound like a lack of heat is your problem, a beefier torch may be needed, or you may be able to increase the intensity from your existing torch with the use of soldering bricks to reflect some heat (not sure that this will be enough though)!!

Tabby xx

[Patstone]

Those go-gas torches are very good, I got mine to do a small plumbing job originally, but mine hasnt got an ignition on, have to light it with a lighter, have to go and get another gas canister for it.

[Dennis]

Hello Clare and welcome. Don't mind the cross purpose posting and hijacking- no disrespect intended.

As everyone says, you need a bigger torch and the Go-system or the CampinGas fulfill you needs. Which one you buy depends on your nearest stockist of canisters. The size of canister you choose only effects the length of time and not the available heat. You will note though, that they contain a butane/propane mix, which is hotter than propane alone (which you get from lighter gas). It is also useful to have self ignition as Pat has said.

Brass is a poorer conductor compared with silver and also tends to oxidise more when heated, so it does help to use a different flux. I find a pinch of Tenacity no. 5 added to borax does make the solder flow more easily. Also you can use extra easy solder which needs less heat.

Lastly, to solder on initials it is a good idea to bevel under the edges and sweat them on, to reduce visible excess solder. My picture shows my belt buckle made in several layers, but admittedly there is some visible solder. The lion's tongue is copper. Dennis

[Patstone]

I have had problems trying to solder a 2mm thick x 1cm wide 9ct gold ring, and its really small. I am struggling with it, and the woman wants it inscribed inside. There seems to be a small gap in one end of the solder joint and however I try to squeeze it together, I am just not physically strong enough to get it to meet. I have put it in a vice and it seems to go together then, but take it out of the vice and it just springs apart again, I cant solder it in the vice, and with wire wrapped around it all that happens is the wire breaks and it springs apart again. I gave her a fitting with the ring before I had to give it a final bash to make it the right size, because it is still a bit small, but I am scared to bash it again even after annealling it for the hundredth time because the last time the solder came apart again. |I dont know if this makes sense but I am getting desperate now. Can anyone give me some help please, otherwise I shall have to give her her money back and walk away from it. Lesson learned - dont make any rings in 2mm gold.

[Truffle & Podge]

I have had problems trying to solder a 2mm thick x 1cm wide 9ct gold ring, and its really small. I am struggling with it, and the woman wants it inscribed inside. There seems to be a small gap in one end of the solder joint and however I try to squeeze it together, I am just not physically strong enough to get it to meet. I have put it in a vice and it seems to go together then, but take it out of the vice and it just springs apart again, I cant solder it in the vice, and with wire wrapped around it all that happens is the wire breaks and it springs apart again. I gave her a fitting with the ring before I had to give it a final bash to make it the right size, because it is still a bit small, but I am scared to bash it again even after annealling it for the hundredth time because the last time the solder came apart again. |I dont know if this makes sense but I am getting desperate now. Can anyone give me some help please, otherwise I shall have to give her her money back and walk away from it. Lesson learned - dont make any rings in 2mm gold.
Ah hun i know how painful soldering problems are, please don't give up! All i can suggest is recleaning the joint & making sure they meet absolutely perfectly. Have you tensioned the joint? And could you get your daughter to close it for you, it's so frustrating when your body will just not cooperate.
Sending soldering fairy wishes for you, hang in there
X

[Wallace]

I have had problems trying to solder a 2mm thick x 1cm wide 9ct gold ring, and its really small. I am struggling with it, and the woman wants it inscribed inside. There seems to be a small gap in one end of the solder joint and however I try to squeeze it together, I am just not physically strong enough to get it to meet. I have put it in a vice and it seems to go together then, but take it out of the vice and it just springs apart again, I cant solder it in the vice, and with wire wrapped around it all that happens is the wire breaks and it springs apart again. I gave her a fitting with the ring before I had to give it a final bash to make it the right size, because it is still a bit small, but I am scared to bash it again even after annealling it for the hundredth time because the last time the solder came apart again. |I dont know if this makes sense but I am getting desperate now. Can anyone give me some help please, otherwise I shall have to give her her money back and walk away from it. Lesson learned - dont make any rings in 2mm gold.

I can send you my ring bender - it should bend it enough for you to get it closed to resolder it. I don't mean the half round and flat pliers. I mean the one that is designed to bend metal. I have used it successfully to bend many thicknesses of silver, and a 1.5mm thick gold band before now. Email me, if you want me to send it down. Or, I can pop down - don't mind, either way :D

[Patstone]

Thanks for your kind wishes, but have been down that route, I dont think it is just me being weak and feeble, because lorry driver husband who is no weakling, and daughter who works at the Donkey sanctuary and has to literally manhandle (is womanhandle a word?) donkeys to do things to them couldnt bend it either. I have bent it in the vice by using a lever to pull one end over the other, firstly to clean the joint again, and secondly to tension it closed, the first time it soldered ok, but I was hammering it after a fitting and the joint just opened up, so it had to be soldered again. I let her try it on and she said it was too tight and although she could get it on, you could see it was tight. If I tell you how things started you may understand, not that I think you are stupid but I think I was. She saw me up in my spare bedroom window when she was passing walking her dogs, she beckoned me down and asked if I make jewellery, I told her I made silver jewellery, and she asked if I did things in gold, well the only thing I have had to do with gold was soldering gold balls/squares etc onto silver, but was willing to give it a go. I didnt think it would be so hard to do, but when she said she wanted it in 2mm thick 1cm wide ring, I didnt see any real problems, I have made rings in silver in 1.50mm so didnt think the extra bit would make much difference. I dont have a ring sizer, apart from one of the little plastic strips, normally use my daughters as she lives half a mile from me, but being greedy didnt want to lose the customer so I measured her finger with a piece of cotton string, (I have found it much more reliable to use that than the plastic strips in the past) anyway, to be on the safe side, she said if I make it the same size as a ring she was wearing it would fit her, so I took her ring and put it on my steel ring mandrel and drew a line either side in permanent marker, made the ring to fit the marks, but I didnt notice which finger she took the ring from, when at craft shows and we get an order I write down which finger of which hand, but sods law this time I didnt. It fits her right hand perfectly, but not her left hand, and she told me her other ring will fit both her ring fingers. Today I am going to ask her to bring her ring back and let me see it fit on her left hand, because I dont think it will. I know if a ring is wider it will be tighter, but I have annealed it so many times, i think the gold is at its limits. My next idea is to take it to a proper jeweller and get them to put it on a ring stretcher to see if it will go a bit bigger, it doesnt have to be much. In desperation I have even tried sanding out and filing the inside to make it bigger but it didnt make much difference. Story up to date, so still not sure what to do about the soldered seam, will it withstand a ring stretcher. Will give you the second saga later on. Mental note for anyone making a commission ring ALWAYS note which hand it is to go on.

[Wallace]

Sorry about hijacking your thread Clare. Xx

Pat, no worries, you asked, I offered. I have a hand held ring stretcher, it is old, but works. No probs, wish you all the best.

Kindest,
Wallace

[Patstone]

Aw Wallace, you have made me feel bad now, but loved too. Thank you for your kind offer, I am very sorry that I bit, I didnt mean too, just had a series of other peoples problems to worry about and the ring business just topped it off, havent been sleeping well either which doesnt help for harmony (not in my case anyway, grumpy git is what my nephew called me yesterday). I think the soldering I did yesterday morning has held, because just now I annealed it again and let it cool naturally and it hasnt sprung open, will try and give it another bashing later, if that fails will call on you again if you dont mind. Its really nice to know that people are so supportive. I would love to see a pic of your ring stretcher because its something that I have on my xmas wish list but they are so costly. Never seen a hand held one.

[Patstone]

Thanks for your fairy wishes, I think they have worked this time. It has soldered but not sure how well until I bash it to make it a tad bigger, thinking about getting a ring stretcher now (oooooooh another tool) havent got £100's so wondered if the ones that you bash the top of to stretch them work ok. Anyone bought one of these:-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/290967713553?lpid=83&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=83&ff19=0




Ah hun i know how painful soldering problems are, please don't give up! All i can suggest is recleaning the joint & making sure they meet absolutely perfectly. Have you tensioned the joint? And could you get your daughter to close it for you, it's so frustrating when your body will just not cooperate.
Sending soldering fairy wishes for you, hang in there
X

[cfb]

Thank you all for your help it is as I thought a heat problem and I shall invest in a larger torch. It is good to know that brass is not such a good conductor as silver and gold I will remember that but I don't think I shall be making much in brass. I can't say it is my favourite.

Shall bear the hallmark help in mind Steve.

Can I ask you Dennis, is sweating, heating the surround but not the actual initials? Not something I have done before so I am just getting clued up. In one of my other hats as an artisan perfumier, I have to ask what's Tenacity No. 5? Obviously something I have not come across in my dormant jewellery making state. I feel like sleeping Beauty I can see I need to get up to date

[Truffle & Podge]

Thank you all for your help it is as I thought a heat problem and I shall invest in a larger torch. It is good to know that brass is not such a good conductor as silver and gold I will remember that but I don't think I shall be making much in brass. I can't say it is my favourite.

Shall bear the hallmark help in mind Steve.

Can I ask you Dennis, is sweating, heating the surround but not the actual initials? Not something I have done before so I am just getting clued up. In one of my other hats as an artisan perfumier, I have to ask what's Tenacity No. 5? Obviously something I have not come across in my dormant jewellery making state. I feel like sleeping Beauty I can see I need to get up to date
I think you will find the bigger torch useful anyway for larger heating jobs in silver :D In regards to sweating, you flow the solder over the back of the smaller piece first then flux both pieces and sandwich together, then heat to reflow the solder. This should with care prevent excess solder round the sides.
X

[cfb]

I think you will find the bigger torch useful anyway for larger heating jobs in silver :D In regards to sweating, you flow the solder over the back of the smaller piece first then flux both pieces and sandwich together, then heat to reflow the solder. This should with care prevent excess solder round the sides.
X


Thank you Truffle. I did have a larger torch but I think it went into the bin some years ago when the gas control went a bit wobbly and was not terrible accurate. I have got a lot to catch up with so I am sure you will be seeing me on here again. When posing a question should I be using the other thread questions and answers? Is this thread just for hellos and social?:D

[Dennis]

Tasha has given you an ace explanation of sweat soldering.

Tenacity no 5 is one of the flux powders, which is mixed to a thin paste with water. There are others, but this one is intended for stainless steel, which turns black when heated and borax does not work well when soldering it.

I have found incidentally, that a pinch of Tenacity added to borax will improve the flow of solder on other metals, such as brass and even silver on those occasions where things aren't going well.

The downsides are that it forms a glassy residue, which is slow to come off in pickle and also that even the minimum quantity is quite expensive. Dennis.

[Truffle & Podge]

Thank you Truffle. I did have a larger torch but I think it went into the bin some years ago when the gas control went a bit wobbly and was not terrible accurate. I have got a lot to catch up with so I am sure you will be seeing me on here again. When posing a question should I be using the other thread questions and answers? Is this thread just for hellos and social?:D
Yup questions should really be asked in one of the other threads so we don't end up with pages and pages to read through. There is an ask the experts section & another one for metal. Having said that we do tend to hijack threads lol
xx