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Sandra
02-10-2013, 08:01 AM
Hello all you lovely jewellery makers! I'm still plodding along learning jewellery-making techniques. Since I last wrote I got my torch sorted out and now have a nice little Proxxon torch that does a great job. I tried out my very first soldering projects yesterday.
I am creating a practice pendant from copper using every basic technique I've learned so far. I took a copper disc and pierced and cut a design in it, spent ages filing everything nice and smooth. Then I took another copper disc of the same size and textured it, then "sweat soldered" the cutout piece on top of it. It looks pretty good, but the edges obviously just look like two discs sandwiched together. What could I do to cover this up or make it look better?

Dennis
02-10-2013, 08:26 AM
It needs a rim Sandra. Get some copper wire and hammer it lightly until it is oval or flat. Then make a ring to fit your sandwich as well as possible and solder it on.

If you don't have copper wire, get a metre of earthing cable from your local electrical shop. It will have a bunch of them. they can be straightened by annealing and pulling hard.

This will also introduce you to making rings. A pic for the forum would be nice. regards, Dennis.

Sandra
02-10-2013, 08:46 AM
Ok thanks, I do have copper wire. I have nothing in my jewellery making books on creating a rim! I am trying to picture how to hold the rim on tight while soldering as well as keeping those bits of solder in place? I am using silver strip solder, maybe I should be using a paste instead. I have a book on soldering but it doesn't actually cover any of this. I may post a pic when finished, but compared to the other work I've seen posted here it's not much.

Goldsmith
02-10-2013, 09:37 AM
Sandra, soldering a rim of copper on copper with silver solder may result in a messy result if the solder runs across the front pierced section. I cannot visualize your pendant, but here is another option if the two plates are of reasonable thickness, how about filing a slight bevel around the piece, making the front pierced section slightly smaller diameter than the rear, and make the sandwich effect of two colours of copper and silver solder as part of the design when viewed from the front.

James

Sandra
02-10-2013, 10:41 AM
I really hesitate to post a picture but here is the side view. You can see I attempted a bit of slight hammering along the edge at first to see if it would help (it didn't) so hopefully now it isn't beyond hope. The piece is only about the size of a ten pence coin.
If it is beyond fixing it's ok, I've got quite a collection building of failed projects already. I suppose I can reuse the metal at some point, somehow.
5140

LydiaNiz
02-10-2013, 01:52 PM
some (admittedly) patient filing around the edge should get rid of any obvious divide. I'd hold it edge up, and use a flat needle file whilst turning it steadily (so you don't lose it's roundness). You could oxidise the inset design and polish the top back if you wanted too. I love your flower

Dennis
02-10-2013, 02:55 PM
Actually now I've seen it, I think it's fine like that. I like the cream filled biscuit look..... Delicious. Just add a jump ring and wear it. Dennis.

Tabby66
02-10-2013, 07:50 PM
Hi Sandra,
It looks like the solder may not have fully flowed to the edges of your discs. This may have been due to the edges of discs not sitting flat together, thus leaving gaps that the solder would not be able to fill; in sufficient solder used; or insufficient heat, when I first started soldering I was very tentative with heating pieces.

looking at this piece of work, which is a lovely design btw, you need to heat both of the discs, moving the heat around the whole of both discs sat together, and gradually concentrating the heat to the outer edges, where you have double thickness of metal. you should see the solder flush/run to the edges.

Then as Lydia suggests, a little careful filing of the edge will blend the 2 discs to look like one (it may be worth drawing or scribing a circle on the pierced disc to help you maintain the shape.

5141

Here is a pair of cufflinks I made using the same technique and the single piece look when filed and blended.

Hope this helps.
Tabby xx (Jill)

Dennis
03-10-2013, 10:09 AM
Ok thanks, I do have copper wire. I have noweller's wndowsthing in my jewellery making books on creating a rim! I am trying to picture how to hold the rim on tight while soldering as well as keeping those bits of solder in place? I am using silver strip solder, maybe I should be using a paste instead.

To answer this, I suggest you look at the section on ring making and sizing. You just make a ring to fit your pendant closely.

To solder it on, place them upside down on your block and solder from behind. Any messy effect due to excess solder will largely remain on the back where it does not matter.
If you want the rim to be more raised on the front then place a small metal disc under the centre of the pendant pendant as a spacer.

Paste solder has its place, but it is not a panacea and can be messy and unreliable.

Note on Beginners, or possibly a rant.

Beginners seem to be very concerned about replicating what they see in jewellers' windows, even to the often banal designs and the high finish. They frequently enquire here about platers to achieve this.

There is not much point in making what is freely available already and probably more cheaply than you can do yourself. You will simply become a slave labourer.

What you make should be different and unique to you and is possible at every level of expertise. Forget about the high street and shopping mall and concentrate on your own vision.

Sandra
03-10-2013, 06:47 PM
Thanks to everyone for your advice and ideas, it helps a great deal. Tabby thanks for posting the picture, it helps a lot to see it. Dennis I'm going to use the method you described on this pendant for practice on creating a rim. I'm not at all sure what to make of the rant for beginners though. I'm just hoping for something that doesn't end up in my growing pile of metal scrap from failed project attempts.

Regarding solder types, I've only tried silver strip solder so far, haven't used the paste. In fact my sandwiched pendant is my first solder project. My biggest problem in all this is the constant realisation I need more tools and supplies. Like today looking through a book of projects to my list added a doming block and punches, ring mandrel, solder probes and liver of sulphur. Oh and a charcoal brick, stainless steel shot, a metal shears and more sheet metal...

Tabby66
03-10-2013, 07:05 PM
My biggest problem in all this is the constant realisation I need more tools and supplies. Like today looking through a book of projects to my list added a doming block and punches, ring mandrel, solder probes and liver of sulphur. Oh and a charcoal brick, stainless steel shot, a metal shears and more sheet metal...

Oooh Sandra, welcome to the very expensive (and never-ending) world of jewellery making and the need for tools!!!!

(I wasn't sure what to make of your rant for beginners either Dennis?!)

Dennis
03-10-2013, 08:46 PM
(I wasn't sure what to make of your rant for beginners either Dennis?!)

I suppose I didn't explain it too clearly, but people drive themselves mad making it neat and achieving a mirror shine. Often a satin finish and edges left rough from the saw and then burnished can be more lively.

I have a polishing lathe, but it lives on a top shelf and hasn't been used in years. So I don't need polishing compounds, nor an ultrasonic to remove them.

My real point was that Sandra's pendant is more original and interesting just like that and yet we all instinctively suggested improvements. Well, I thought better of it when I saw the picture. Hope I haven't hurt anyone's feelings. Dennis.

caroleallen
04-10-2013, 08:44 AM
I do agree with you Dennis, though I think we probably all start out being influenced by other people's work. I've never wanted to do anything like high street jewellers stuff though. I can see the point you're making and I also like to see some texture and hammer marks etc if it suits the piece.

Going back to the original piece, I think you should leave it as it is as you won't get a smooth edge with copper. I'd have a go with silver and take the advice given about heating it until the solder flows to the edges. Then file it around the edge like the cuff links. You'll be amazed at the difference. A couple of small bits of sterling won't cost the earth.

Petal
04-10-2013, 09:20 AM
Sandra, it can be very tempting to buy lots of goodies for projects you want to make when you first start out. I did just that and in hindsight wish I'd gone on a part time evening class first, so I could have a go at all sorts of tools and techniques before deciding what to buy for projects I'd planned. I never have a problem deciding on a new handbag/shoes or a new tool - the tool wins every time!

I like your layered copper project, don't give up on it. I have many things in my 'disaster' pots that get turned into all sorts of things and mistakes and disasters are a good thing, that's how you learn. :D

ps_bond
04-10-2013, 09:38 AM
I'd humbly suggest that learning the "core" tool skills - accurate measuring & layout, sawing, forging, bending with pliers, accurate filing and soldering - will give a better grounding than buying more gimmicky tools e.g. disc cutters, corrugation mills and the likes. The latter can give you a shortcut, but they won't give you the all-round knowledge.

Not that I'm being all that rude about gimmicky tools, I have a fair few of them too :)

Ada
04-10-2013, 11:20 AM
I found Dennis's comment really thought-provoking and I have been reflecting on my learning journey.

My first silversmithing experience was signing up for a 6-week session during which people made something of their choice. I had no experience whatsoever and no idea what it was possible for a complete beginner to make in that timescale. A jeweller friend suggested I take along some items I liked as a starting point. I did that, knowing that I did not want to produce a copy. My first piece was a shallow dish with feet and some stamped decoration.

Since then, I attended an evening class which started off with very simple ring-making techniques before continuing with individual items approved by the tutor as appropriate to the skill level. I have continued with the workshop approach to developing skills while making pieces. However, I also wanted to learn the basic techniques as Peter suggests. To this end I have done a couple of one-day courses in soldering and hinge-making and pursued specific techniques such as repousse which interest me. One of the reasons I have tried to set up some basic facilities at home is to have the time and opportunity to practise the basics.

I am very lucky to have access to really good workshops and tutors, and I know that not everyone does. In the beginning, I was not very creative; I found that my ideas have developed as I have progressed. Interestingly, on my repousse course we all created a copper dragonfly from the same image on day 1. They were all quite different, reflecting individual interpretations of the same idea.

Sandra: I think you should look on your work as "learning pieces" rather than "failed projects" :)

Dennis: thank you for stimulating my grey cells!

Truffle & Podge
05-10-2013, 05:29 PM
Im a learner too and ive asked some really daft questions, still do. When you are teaching yourself and don't really have access to a tutor you get curious as to how others do things and obviously you get quite scared of having a horrific accident, wasting money, burning the house down and looking stupid.
I must admit i think i asked about plating materials and if anyone used them but that was because i had no idea how to achieve the finish on some of the work that people had displayed on here & to be fair the search facility on the forum had gone a bit gonky and was throwing up some unaccessible pages. I think what happens is you want to do your best, it's human nature and its a hard itch to ignore. Once you are comfortable that you can achieve a good finish it's alot easier to look at something and say, you know what i like it rough & ready just like that. But as a beginner you can't help but feel you have maybe copped out.
I think i have learnt an extraordinary amount since picking up a saw a few months ago, it's taken anger, frustration, blood, sweat and tears and not a small amount of advice, patience and encouragement from folks on here ( i owe my sanity to one person in particular, you know who you are! :Y:) There are things that are an absolute dream to do now, that caused such heart ache before, even soldering is starting to become enjoyable lmao i so never thought that would happen! I've learnt the hard way how to get a mirror finish so now i can choose satin or shine and i'm so grateful.
I still have so so much to learn and i guess what i am trying to say is that yes as learners we ask a hell of a lot of questions, are easily scared and constantly look for confirmation we are doing the right thing, but we get better and hopefully become able to help answer the questions that keep being asked, i like to believe that this is what forums like this are for.
x

Sandra
08-10-2013, 12:29 PM
It's nice to know I'm not the only one learning as I go Truffle and Podge! I would love to take up a jewellery course but until I find one I am still learning a great deal on my own. I put the "sandwich" pendant on the back burner and have been experimenting with new techniques on new projects. On the left, practice sawing, texturing, soldering and my first rivet! On the left - more piercing, sawing and soldering.

I learned that soldering copper on silver or silver on silver would be much easier than dealing with obvious silver solder around the edges. I also learned not to brush too much flux all over your piece as the solder really does flow everywhere the flux goes......I ended up having to resaw the cutout areas because they were filled with solder.

I also learned not to stand the piece on its side to tap the edges of a piece with a hammer, because all that happens is you press the cutout areas together. I ended up resawing the cutout areas three times. But as things go I usually have to learn everything the hard way!

I didn't have any liver of sulpher so I tried the boiled egg method. Not sure how I feel about it, it does darken the metal but it seems to wipe off pretty easily. Not to mention I felt a little guilty bad wasting an egg that way.

All in all I'm pretty happy with these latest projects, even though they are nowhere near the beautiful work other people here can do. But considering I didn't know what words like "anneal" meant a couple months ago and had never used a drill until last week I think I've come a long way already ;)

Dennis
08-10-2013, 02:34 PM
They look very jolly and you will soon have a worthwhile collection, Sandra.

Some of us have given up L.of S. and use Platinol, which is virtually odourless. It is best used diluted though and not warmed as when it reacts rapidly it also tends to flake away. It is unfriendly to skin, so you need to wear gloves and if using a brush it should be synthetic. Lastly all blackening agents work badly on solder, so solder will show up on blackened silver.

For the pierced items you have shown, if there were a metal backing you could also blacken the recesses with a Sharpie pen and rub away any surplus.

One last observation. if you experiment with a copper off cut, you will find that all sorts of beautiful colours appear just by applying a torch in places.
Dennis.

caroleallen
08-10-2013, 06:03 PM
I really like your little heart one. A job well done. It's great having a forum to ask questions on. I've learned loads over the years and still have a lot to learn.

Sandra
28-11-2013, 11:49 AM
Learned another lesson the hard way today. I soldered a cabachon to a pendant. I had read to be careful with overheating the stone so I soldered by heating underneath the piece using my "helping hand" device. The actual soldering went fine, I am using hard silver solder for the first time and like it. But...after pulling the piece out of pickling the stone has changed colour and has a rough texture. I can maybe peel it out of the soldered bezel and replace it, hopefully. I think I should install a live videocam in my workshop so someone could stop me when I'm doing something obviously WRONG!

Wallace
28-11-2013, 12:18 PM
Hi Sandra,

Learning curves can be steep.

Not sure what medium you are using, but where possible, you should be setting the stones last of all.

Picking solutions can be fine for many non-porous stones.

Get that cam installed! Lol

Dennis
28-11-2013, 12:44 PM
I second that motion. Finish the metal work entirely and cover in copious masking tape (from a hardware shop), but leave the bezel (setting) showing. Set with a soft tool such as a shaped brass rod in a handle. Then you will only have the bezel to finish.

Any slight residue from masking tape can be removed with meths, or sticky stuff remover. Dennis.

Summer
04-12-2013, 12:21 AM
Another self learner here, mainly from books, but since joining the forum this is my first port of call, I've found when i visit for a quick catchup there needs to be a big cup of tea at my side :-)
Sandra your pendants are lovely, and the first one with the flower is lovely as it is, I know sometimes it's hard to find the *stop* stage.
Jackie

Sandra
15-03-2014, 11:26 PM
Thank you Summer! :)

I don't have my live webcam installed yet so I have some comments and questions about today's jewellery making adventures.

First, I bought what was supposed to be copper rod from Ebay. After trying to anneal, hammer and forge this copper rod into a pendant and having it shatter I discovered it wasn't copper after all but a mystery metal with copper plating.......

More soldering issues - had a pendant with jump ring that I wanted to solder shut held in a "Third hand". The jump ring was nicely snug with ends touching tightly. Everything clean and fluxed. Well the piece of easy solder wouldn't even melt! My third hand however looked like it was about to. I came to the conclusion the third hand was drawing too much of the heat away from my jump ring & solder. So, took the jump ring with attached pendant and placed it on a charcoal block and proceeded to solder. This time the solder beaded up into a lovely silver ball and then dropped off. Filed the jump ring and tried again, same thing happened. Tossed it in pickling solution and tried again. Same thing.

Conclusion: add jump ring to my salvage heap and make a new one & try again tomorrow.

And this was a fairly good day for me compared to most :-O

Dennis
16-03-2014, 09:40 AM
Hi Sandra.

If your easy solder won't melt under the circumstances described, then:

1. It might not be easy solder at all, but a piece of sterling that has got into your solder box.
2.Alternatively the solder is not clean enough, and needs rubbing all over with sandpaper, or a rough green washing up pad.

The easiest way to attach a jump ring is to solder it shut first, flat on your block with a little more solder than necessary. Putting the solder under the join and resting the jump ring on it stops it escaping.

Now rest the solder join on the pendant, or whatever and re-heat the piece. The solder will re-melt and attach. Dennis.

medusa
16-03-2014, 09:42 AM
I loathe soldering jump rings on stuff. I have a scarab which was beautifully enamelled sitting reproachfully on my bench because my attempt to replace a bust chain ring simply resulted in molten silver and solder and ruined enamel :(

Sandra
16-03-2014, 10:46 AM
Dennis I shall try that technique. Somehow though the solder join opening and reattaching sounds almost too magical. (Oh Medusa I thought those sorts of things only happened to me!). It was definitely solder as I clipped it off the strip just prior to soldering, also hammered it a bit and used steel wool on it. Maybe it was the jump ring itself not clean enough with built up flux and maybe firescale? I don't know, I'm headed into the workshop now to give it another go.

Wait a second, I think we are talking about two different things. I'm just trying to solder the jump ring shut with my pendant already looped through the jump ring. I think though I can still use the first part of that technique.

medusa
16-03-2014, 11:38 AM
For soldering jump rings shut I hold the jump ring with soldering tweesers and if its anything delicate, I either clag with thermogel or balance the tweezers over a small shot glass of water with the stones submerged. This is the one time I use solder paste.

Sandra
16-03-2014, 12:19 PM
Soldering tweezers? I shall have to look into that!

Well....if this hadn't happened to me I'm not sure I'd believe it. I took a new piece of wire to create a jump ring and annealed it on my charcoal block. Unbeknownst to me was a small bit of solder left on the block which then adhered to the end of my wire. I just filed it a bit to smooth it and continued on bending it into a circle. I had to anneal it again because it had hardened too much - and then it soldered shut from the bit of solder that had attached previously! To think all times I tried and failed yesterday then to have it happen accidentally. I am pretty sure the jewellery gods are having a laugh at me.

Then I had to reheat to open it back up and loop my pendant pieces on and resoldered using Dennis' advice of laying the ring onto the solder and it worked perfectly.

Goldsmith
16-03-2014, 12:40 PM
Sandra, have you tried making and using a soldering clamp to hold the jumprings while soldering? I am sure you could come up with a shape that suits the job.
For those who have not seen them here are a couple of pics.
58025803

James

Sandra
16-03-2014, 03:23 PM
Somehow I didn't think to use those for this project. I will have some ready for next time.

More lessons learned - same project. Never assume you can bend a bail around a jump ring once it's soldered shut. And, make sure your pendant pieces are on the right way before you solder the jump ring shut for the 4th time!

Sandra
16-03-2014, 06:50 PM
*Update*
I've finished this project and since I've written so much about it I thought I'd post a picture. It's not amazing or anything I realise but I rather like it anyway. I may do another one similar right away while all the new lessons I've learned are fresh on my mind!
5805

medusa
16-03-2014, 07:41 PM
I really like it. Well worth the effort!

josef1
16-03-2014, 11:07 PM
Looks great

Nick martin
17-03-2014, 05:21 PM
I always solder my jump rings closed on chains, bracelets and necklaces for durability. Using the Titanium strips that James refers too definitely makes a big difference and is always how I do it.

Nick

mizgeorge
17-03-2014, 05:58 PM
I never solder all the rings closed on chains - I always leave those at the clasp unsoldered, firstly to provide a break point, but also because if there is a tug, it's a lot easier to replace a jump ring than a chain.

However, I do solder hundreds of rings a week, and wouldn't every use anything other than paste solder for these, simply because it's so much easier.

Sandra - the end result looks great!

Tabby66
17-03-2014, 07:20 PM
Looks great Sandra!! I think your idea of doing another one whilst all your 'lessons learned' are fresh in your mind is a great way of mastering skills, it helps making future pieces with more confidence!!

Tabby xx

ShinyLauren
18-03-2014, 08:11 PM
I solder jump rings shut on pendants and chains, and like George I always use solder paste for this - it's so much easier!

Sandra
10-04-2014, 08:25 AM
I solder jump rings shut on pendants and chains, and like George I always use solder paste for this - it's so much easier!

I'm not sure why but I've yet to succeed using solder paste. I don't know if I torch it too little or too long, but it never holds. I have the greatest success using easy solder though getting those little pieces to stay where you want can be a challenge! I've been using my titanium clamps for holding soldering pieces and they are really helpful. Soldering still is my weakest point though, this is what I need to find a course in. I haven't given up though!

I am concocting another design and hoping for a bit of advice (again!). I want to use one element I saw in another design, not copying, but using this particular idea to create something new. This is how I learn! I've been trying to work out the best way to do it. I first curved a piece of wire then cut into small pieces and thought to solder them individually on a silver base. But I'm wondering if it would be better to first solder longer lengths of wire together and then cut what I need and solder this to the silver back? I'm not sure if I am explaining this very well!
5958

caroleallen
10-04-2014, 10:22 AM
I'd say it's as broad as its long Sandra. The most important thing is that they're all completely flat and in contact with the sheet all the way along. It's definitely a job for James' clamps.

Dennis
10-04-2014, 10:34 AM
Which ever way round you do it Sandra, it will not be easy because you have to judge the amount of solder needed to avoid a flood. Also you seem to be using D-shaped wire, which is difficult to bend sideways and match up. All in all, I think you are doing very well, but I would make a bit extra and then discard the part that is not so good.

Your main constraint is that you are making an ambitious design with sheet and wire, while others might use etching, roll texturing, or even chasing. You will change your methods as you gather more tools and adopt other techniques.

As for paste solder, the problem is that it can decompose if heated directly. Ideally you get the whole piece up to a temperature at which the solder flows and don't play the flame on the paste at all.
In this case it would be best to heat it from underneath. So you could support a square of steel gauze between to bricks to raise it up and get your flame under it. A mini torch will probably not be hot enough for this though. Dennis.

Sandra
10-04-2014, 12:36 PM
Thanks guys. I wasn't concerned about this idea until the part about my torch. I think I'll put this idea on hold until I get a better one. I probably am overheating the paste, it never seems to get that liquid metal flow as regular silver strip solder so I assume it's not hot enough and aim the flame directly on the paste.