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mizgeorge
19-06-2013, 02:34 PM
I just ordered some tube. Needing a fair bit, I ordered 4 x 300 lengths (the maximum stocked size) and was surprised to find a cutting charge added.

If I were ordering lots of little 10mm lengths, or wanted an odd total length, I could understand the charge, but all I want is four complete pieces - rather like ordering multiples of the inconveniently packed 30g coils of hh or hard wire.

In the end, I added four separate lengths to my basket and phoned the order in to say I wasn't trying to in some way cheat the system and avoid a charge.

But there must surely be a better way?

Wallace
19-06-2013, 02:44 PM
I just ordered some tube. Needing a fair bit, I ordered 4 x 300 lengths (the maximum stocked size) and was surprised to find a cutting charge added.

If I were ordering lots of little 10mm lengths, or wanted an odd total length, I could understand the charge, but all I want is four complete pieces - rather like ordering multiples of the inconveniently packed 30g coils of hh or hard wire.

In the end, I added four separate lengths to my basket and phoned the order in to say I wasn't trying to in some way cheat the system and avoid a charge.

But there must surely be a better way?

is it me, or is it nonsense to charge for cutting if you offer a bespoke service for them anyway? Full lengths, why would they need any charge, as you point it is surprising.

Surely the fact we are being charged more because they have been 'fashioned' should be enough. Customers pay a lot as it is for 'fashioned' metals. Would be great if this was taken off by such an award winning company, you would think? Like I said, maybe it is just me. I perhaps don't really have a good business acumen... but this makes the difference to where I shop if I am going to come across it. For the smaller business this will have larger implications.

mizgeorge
19-06-2013, 03:39 PM
The cutting charge has always irritated me beyond reason - but I can understand that there are people who would take the mickey if it weren't there. I can understand it if it's for large numbers of small pieces, but when you just want a couple of good size bits for ease of storage as well as use, it seems very petty. However this one really annoyed me as it wasn't my choice.

Exsecratio
19-06-2013, 04:14 PM
Cutting charges usually depend on the full size of a given material, I use a lot of perspex and order in 3m x 2m sheets, if I wanted say 2m x 2m then the supplier may be stuck with a 1m x 2m offcut with nowhere to sell it.

In those cases I find they charge a "cutting" charge that in reality is a way to cover offcut costs. Another consideration in cutting is the number of bits, if they buy in say 300mm lengths and each buyer want's that cut into 5 pieces then that's a net cost that has to be covered, if they didn't then imagine 100 orders a day with 5 cuts on each, 500 cuts take time and time costs somebody somewhere along the line, it would either lead to higher all round pricing or cutting charges being added.


it seems very petty possibly but then again none of us are working for fun, if polishing a finished ring for example adds 20 minutes to the job and everybody asks for it, you will soon find profits taking a dive when every job has a free 20 minutes added to it.

If they are using full length tube and charging for cutting when no cutting is done then that's just taking the michael and gouging prices (similar to adding extra 20 to postage for no real reason)

best wishes

Dave

Wallace
19-06-2013, 07:10 PM
I am still puzzled why there is a cutting cost if a cutting service is offered. Still makes me double think about my options.

I get what you are saying Dave, I do, but seriously the cost of the metal has already been enhanced even by the time it comes to the point of looking at the options. The metal price and the selling price are quite far apart - these are partly the reasons our prices need to be higher.

But time to get off my soap box. Moving my purchasing to another source will be an option, and there are several good choices available when it comes to it.

Dennis
19-06-2013, 07:42 PM
Times are hard and companies have to keep their shareholders on-side. If they can get away with adding a 'Cutting Charge' for their standard lengths, why not charge for assembling the order under 'Computer Search', or a 'Tweezer Charge' for small items?

Exsecratio
19-06-2013, 11:31 PM
why not charge for assembling the order under 'Computer Search', or a 'Tweezer Charge' for small items

They already do Dennis, they just don't call it by name :) Take business to business sales, they can quote prices without VAT but retail sales are required to show the full price. A fair few companies hide under the "business to business" banner as a way of making their advertised prices look cheaper.


The metal price and the selling price are quite far apart - these are partly the reasons our prices need to be higher.

Yup I agree,no matter which way a company wraps up their surcharges to make the advertised price look cheaper we all end up paying the cost in the end.Some are honest and say it's a surcharge, some just try to hide it and hope we are all too daft to spot it.

I see it in my industry every day, companies charging "set up" surcharges...what for?!, if I take a job then all that is factored into the quote and not hidden in the small print at the bottom of the order. Setting up a laser is a requirement to do the job so why charge extra if not to just add cost for the customer....If one company does it, they lose business, if all of them in that sales area do it, we end up getting no other choice.

Take George's tube, next week they could make a big hoo-ha about "no more cutting charges" then bump postage by 60 pence and full tube length by 2, it's actually quite likely nobody would pay much attention past the "Free cutting service" they are suddenly being offered.

All a bit underhanded really but I doubt it's going to stop anytime soon :(

best wishes

Dave

pearlescence
20-06-2013, 07:28 AM
That sort of price bump-up is so mid 20th C. Companies that do that just aren't getting the realities of how customers think in C21. It looks both greedy and petty.

AuSmith
20-06-2013, 12:39 PM
I too have been quite aggravated by this issue with suppliers all over the world- From Cookson's, to Rio Grande, Roseco to Karl Fischer- How can a co. sell a mill product if they don't cut it? and why then do we, the consumers have to pay a " fabrication charge " when its first, already fabricated and moreover, to sell it it can either be supplied strictly as fabricated ( which in the case of seamless tubing is generally in 12" lengths ( universally),? I don't know of a single wholesaler to the trade that mills it in longer lengths, and that's in over 35 years of dealings with companies when sterling was at $4.20 per tr oz., and gold around $125.00 if that! Some industrial suppliers make a light walled tubing in silvers ( .999 and .925) - so good for hinges and things other than tube settings,but I usuually have to organise a group buy to meet the minimum- as I don't use much sterling and don't need three years worth of fine silver light tubing at a go!
I think part of the problem is that many vendors aren't wholesalers and even the wholesalers have seen that they can get away with this ridiculous method of selling mill products.After all who needs an inch square of any mental? or wants to buy pre-cut lengths of sheet/plate..I want to order what I can't make or need in a hurry for a class or students to have the same thing to work with ( so the results are consistent in the group)- I certainly do not.
Problem is the many jewellery supply vendors that have sprung up in the past 10-12 years have begun selling to hobbyists without business licenses, so they aren't buying the quantities large firms do that offset the 'fabrication' charges with semi-annual orders, and don't have a retail store selling the usual triple key tree cast same-old-same-old diamond stuff and bridal lines with a guarantee that begins once one's firm has met the 20,000 a year mark on bridal or say, a true-set line of semi-mounts paired with a huge amount of scrap recycling from flooring to upholstery to sticky mats at the door, particle collection systems and other trappings with high yield returns.We aren't talking about these businesses being geared to Independent Jewellers like us ( for the most) that do one off art jewellery and small runs if production commissions are garnered. Industry related organisations won't fight for the elimination of redundancy in charges .We as a group - even worldwide- have not organised to fight them in any of the ways possible- that may or may not do anything to get the costs of their doing business changed ( as a cutting charge is what they have to do to sell their wares- or in the case of solder, reselling other's pre-clipped packets of solder in many cases). The only respite there is is writing off the charges if one pays taxes on your business then you can tally up the totals and use them as expenses deductions for other than supplies costs: much like having to buy a scale that interfaces with UPS Global Shipping to use their services as a shipping concern.
i do check around the world before ordering and find the suppliers that have the lowest prices, if any on fabrication of mill products.I myself sell mill products in custom coloured golds and alloys that aren't standard (for the most part) and only add a charge when the client wants some bizarre packaging option as I have figured in my time and consumables and best method of getting the items to the client into the costs of my mill work.If I get an order for a length of stepped bezel i make that length, not a thousand feet of it ( unless that's the order! ) and in colours no one buys regularly.I don't make channel in sizes almost useless to art jewelers setting stones one would like to see as they set them with ordinary magnification! It's all about US , as a consumer bank, standing up to these companies either as a group or individually in some reasonably organised or timed way to make the point that we see the redundancy and it's their costs of doing business that we don't want to have to pay for - particularly in sizes we find practically useless...Other than that, buying a rolling mill and amassing all the recipes and equipment necessary to produce your own mill products, including drawing,3D printing or extruding tubing is the most cost effective and time conscious way to go about it if you do this as a livelihood .If however, money is no object, then the charges seem mere to wealthy hobbyists and novices and well commissioned Independents...So being good consumers is the first step all of us should consider IMO, and then plan based on our decisions...should there become an "Our"...It is my main complaint with vendors and I would love to do something about it involving trade organisations and schools, and large consumers as well across the board- The producing manufacturers have gotten away with this for too long and it's time someone stand up for the Independents which represent perhaps a 30% market share, though that is growing and when one looks, many that were quite active jewellery makers/metalsmiths a few years ago disappear suddenly in many instances, nonetheless the trend is up as the crafting trend of 'participants' branching out beyond beading expands . I thought the metal clay fad would be over and done 2 years ago ( we did witness the PMC guild's collapse!!!) whilst as its cost is ridiculous compared to the "real" metals , it has taken on a new life including coloured karated gold clays and base metal clays that make it affordable enough for one to get hooked as they improve their skill sets ( in some cases_ and marketing it becomes less and less challenging ( when the work is first class) as designer mainstream names are using alloys as well in their collections- so there is a slow trend towards the appearance of being an Independent..If we could harness that niche and use it, I'm betting the ridiculous charges manufacturers add-on and/or international competition becomes more prevalent and trade organisations would realise they aren't going to loose advertising dollars if they assist we would see redundant and duplicitous charges eliminated at least, to a degree...AuSmith

trialuser
20-06-2013, 01:59 PM
It's good you got that off your chest :)

medusa
20-06-2013, 02:44 PM
Dear AuSmith,

Please can you use an eye friendly font, font size and colour. I'm sure there is something interesting in what you are saying but the formatting makes it impossible to read.

Thanks.

susieq
20-06-2013, 05:46 PM
Dear AuSmith,

Please can you use an eye friendly font, font size and colour. I'm sure there is something interesting in what you are saying but the formatting makes it impossible to read.

Thanks.

I second that. I gave up reading too. The screen of my little netbook and varifocals just couldn't cope.

Exsecratio
20-06-2013, 07:31 PM
It looks both greedy and petty.

Correct on both, sadly I don't see it changing anytime soon.

An example

Price of 3mm Clear Cast Acrylic sheet 3020mm x 2040mm from Perspex UK

71.86 + VAT + Delivery

Price of 3mm Clear Cast Acrylic sheet from "Popular Online Supplier" 3020mm x 2040mm

191.50 + VAT + Delivery

If you want the full sheet cut down by "Popular Online Supplier" they do the first 5 straight cuts for free, after that it's 50p per cut (On something that already has a 100+ markup)

Normal buyers without Perspex UK accounts rave about the fantastic value they are getting from the vendor and have little realisation what they are getting for free is really costing them through the nose but they aren't being told. As of the start of this financial year that "popular online supplier" is top of the UK suppliers of "Trade" plastics.....

Argg my eyes


We aren't talking about these businesses being geared to Independent Jewellers like us I need better glasses ;)

No they won't be, they are far more interested in somebody who comes along and asks for 1,000 tubes per order.


..Other than that, buying a rolling mill and amassing all the recipes and equipment necessary to produce your own mill products,

oooerrrr that's going to cost

best wishes

Dave

Dennis
20-06-2013, 09:57 PM
The bottom line is that we have to shop around to find the best price. But jewellers can always add a surcharge for 'cost management'. :-"

Dennis.

Exsecratio
20-06-2013, 10:42 PM
I think it's down to expectation as well Dennis, I'm going to be having a ring made for my wife and I'm fully expecting that to cost me plenty. I'm not just buying a ring the way I see it, I'm buying decades of experience and professionalism and that comes at a price. (as soon as time permits I'll be asking Peter if he can help as he's only 15 miles away).

I'll always maintain much of the work I've seen advertised by people here is a LOT cheaper than I would expect, if only I had the skills I have seen demonstrated here :(

best wishes

Dave