Hallmarking AGAIN!

[Patstone]

Can anyone tell me if I need to get an item hallmarked please. The complete item is under the regulated weight for hallmarking silver, but I made a flower, like a big daisy and the middle bit is in gold which I dont know how heavy it is as it was a ball about 5mm across and flat at the back for the centre of the flower. Cant make another gold ball as I dont have any more gold to weigh it, so I dont know if its more than 1grm. Does gold weigh the same as silver, if so I can weigh a silver ball as I have quite a few of those.

[ps_bond]

Density of gold is 19.3, silver is 10.5. So... If you double the weight of your silver ball, you'll be slightly over the weight of a gold ball the same size.

[mizgeorge]

Isn't it the total weight of metal that is measured? So if there's more than 1g in total and some of it is gold, it needs to be hallmarked.

[Exsecratio]

A 5mm diameter Sphere has a volume of 65.44984694978734 Cubic Millimeters (0.065449847 Cubic Centimeters)

Pure Golds atomic weight is 19.32 Grms per Cubic Centimeter

0.065449847 x 19.32 = 1.2644901 Grms for a pure gold Sphere 5mm in Diameter.

best wishes

Dave

[medusa]

Isn't it the total weight of metal that is measured? So if there's more than 1g in total and some of it is gold, it needs to be hallmarked.
That was my understanding.

[SteveLAO]

Not strictly true. Take for example a silver item decorated with gold wire. The wire weighs less than a gram and the silver weighs 5g. No requirement to mark at all.
You need to look at individual weights of the metals. If the gold content weighs more than 1 gram then you'll need a mark on it. If the silver bit weighs more than 7.78g you'll need a mark on that too. In your case if I were you I'd have it all marked (and not just because I want the business!) If you have added gold then it must be to increase the value (or you would have gold plated the silver?). With a gold and silver hallmark on it the perceived value to the client increases, and so you would probably be able to charge more! (I mean even more than you would have charged plus the hallmarking charge BTW!)Plus of course no chance of infringing the act, if you're unsure how much the gold part weighed. (Note for next time - weigh the components before assembly to check the weights used :-) )

[Patstone]

I tend to have a design in mind and make the rest up as I go I'm afraid. I dont use "plated" anything, all mine is solid, whether it be silver or gold, and I didnt add it to increase the cost of it, just because in my opinion it looked better, otherwise I would have used silver. The flowers weight is under 6 grms including the gold bit as its only made from thin silver sheet ( 0.40mm), as I didn't want it to weigh too much to be uncomfortable and heavy. I didnt weigh the gold before as it was an afterthought and when I had soldered it on it just occurred to me that perhaps it was over 1g. Not quite what size 1g gold looks like, so may have a weigh-in of another gold ball when i have time. Thanks for the info, I will wait until I have a pile to send up to you.

[caroleallen]

Just out of interest, is hallmarking ever enforced with artisan jewellers? I've never heard of anyone ever being prosecuted.

[Anna Wales]

Just out of interest, is hallmarking ever enforced with artisan jewellers? I've never heard of anyone ever being prosecuted.

Good question Carole. It's crossed my mind at a few events I've attended as to whether some of the makers are as fussy about hallmarking laws as they should be and also how the rules are enforced. If they're not then it seems unfair to all of us who do things properly. I registered with London in 1981 and I still feel proud each time I stamp something I've made. How sad must I be !!

[pearlescence]

Trading Standards once came round a farmers market where I was selling and had a conversation with anothr seller. Informed and told he had to be in compliance and they would check in two months.Caroleallen

Yes, I still feel excited to see my mark on stuff, Anna.

[Patstone]

I go to one or two craft fairs every month, get quite a look of surprise when people are told that we just buy silver sheet and wire and make it from that, and also the finer silver chains, its a "craft market" for goodness sake, its not a craft if you just buy stuff and sell it on. Our stuff does comply with the law in that respect, because we weigh all the finished items before we either earmark for selling or stamping. The only bugbear I have is that the cost of the return postage from Assay Office to home. I send it up for about £4 and they send the same things back by post and charge £12, which pushes the price up if you are only sending a few items, which we do, as its a hobby not a full time job. Inevitably we try to keep the items less than the accepted weight to keep costs down, some of the items that are special we get hallmarked and any commissions are too, but on the whole although I would love to send everything up, the cost to us is prohibitive, alternative is to put the prices up and dont sell anything, which eventually would stop my hobby which I thoroughly enjoy, and of course the bonus of being able to buy nice shiny tools.

[ps_bond]

I've a few issues with the charging for assay, TBH - the pricing structure isn't terribly transparent and I feel the minimum packet charge should include the sponsors mark where needed as well as laser marking - if I send in 4 pieces for marking, I don't really think it is reasonable to charge £15 plus a charge for sponsors mark PLUS a charge for laser. It still isn't clear from the price list where packet handling & packet logistics come into play either. Return postage... Well, Royal Mail seems to be doing everything it can to make sure it is uncompetitive.

It also doesn't help much when someone misreads the hallnote and concludes that *everything* should be lasered...

If you send 5 silver rings for assay & laser, I'd expect a bill of about £38 - so including postage there, that adds about £10 onto the costs to make the ring - which, using my usual formula, adds about £23 onto the retail price of each. Send in 10 and it adds around £14 onto each. Once you get to sending 50, the hallmark adds £5 onto the retail price. It's cheaper if you don't have to rely on Royal Mail, admittedly, but for low value stuff that's adding quite a proportion onto the price. When the ring is in the order of £600 it's less of an issue.

[Patstone]

Quite agree, most of my plain/unadorned rings and pendants sell for around £25 ish, and the last time I sent up a small packet to them the stamping and sponsors marking came to around £10 and with the VAT etc and post and packing the parcel ended up costing £32. Bearing in mind that I sent the parcel up in a fairly substantial box, and the postage cost less than £4 from home to the Assay Office, I have never had anything lasered so I cant compare costs for that.

[SteveLAO]

Pricing is always an issue with all the assay offices, I think because there are hundreds of different variables that we have to deal with! We always charge the sponsors mark as an extra rather than including it in the minimum charge as we have many customers who like to apply their own sponsor's mark themselves and trying to extract that out of a minimum charge would be more complicated than adding it on at the end.

[SteveLAO]

Caroleallan - re your question if anyone ever gets "done" for breaching the hallmarking act....oh yes they certainly do! We had one case where a shop was closed down and £200K of unhallmarked jewellery was seized by trading standards! Usually though a warning with 21 days to comply is sufficient for most to get on the right side of the law :)

[pearlescence]

The statement you get back, with the long list of additions, is so complicated I took the last one to my accountant, who in turn took several minutes to understand it. And then frowned a lot.
The London office does need to sort out better shipping. As they do it now they are charging far too much extra for Special delivery (and special delivery isn't so special that before I left them they lost two packages in three weeks. Then made me feel like some sort of fraudster when I claimed.)
I suspect any courier company would be cheaper and better.

[Wallace]

I have had experience of BAO using courier.... Seriously, I would for the PO 'special delivery' every time. The cost is much higher with couriers. My last BAO experience was the final straw. I love being at LAO.

However, I do agree about postage being disproportionate. I sent my goodies up in a roll of popping plastic and padded envelope.... It cost me just over £6.00 to send via 'special delivery'. It was returned in the same packaging, with a Post Office supplied 'special delivery' envelope. The fee to wrap my bundle back up in my plastic roll, not single bags and put Sellotape on it, raised it to almost £10. So I am a little miffed only at that really.

The pricing for laser is a little higher than BAO, but it is set out in the freely available tariff, so I know what is coming.

'Special delivery', if there is no signature from you or your business members, you are able to take it up with the post office who are responsible. Going back to couriers, and my last packet there...BAO were given a specific address where I currently work (counting down the weeks). They took it to another building, not directly linked to mine and I had to chase it up to find it (took me the better part of a day)... So beware of couriers too.

Overall, I am happy having switched offices, very happy. Steve and Sascha are brilliant in supporting and helping with even the smallest enquiry, and you can even track it all on line. I am, for the most part, a happy jeweller.

[ps_bond]

In the May newsletter, AOL described their Special Delivery Response Service - you ask for pre-labelled bags, use them to send the packet in & the cost of shipping gets added to your fee. Has anyone tried that yet?

I do appreciate that there are admin costs associated with sending stuff out - I also appreciate the assay offices handle packets of wildly varying size & value (hence expansion into Heathrow, for example). We're very small volume by comparison and there aren't many opportunities for economies of scale as such.

Steve - later this morning I'll be sending a packet in. It's all 925, there's 3 bracelets, 1 pair of cufflinks, 2 rings and a bowl; all of them need sponsors marks, the bowl I'd like lasered with 4mm high 3d marks (which I've just remembered to add to the hallnote). Going on the current pricelist, that is £19.95 minimum charge, plus £1.60 for the sponsors mark (plus laser?), plus shipping at whatever RM charge, plus £3.25 packet handling - oh yes, and as I forgot last time - PLUS VAT! Oops. Did I miss anything? Everything is loosely wrapped in tissue, then placed in a box with bubble wrap, which is in a jiffy bag.

[SteveLAO]

pearlescence - I'm really sorry to hear about your losses, but as they went by royal mail special delivery and were subsequently lost by them then I think that would be down to royal mail? We would handle your claim for you as we are "the sender", but we can't be held responsible for RM's logistics. Customers are always welcome to arrange shipping by any method including couriers, and parcels are sent in by a wide variety of methods.
Wallace - The reason we charge £3.25 packet handling is that despite my best efforts, the guy in the post room stubbornly refuses to work for nothing lol!! Seriously as most of our work is done on a "time" basis we do need to charge out for re-wrapping and getting your parcel to the postman.
ps bond - you would be charged out at the minimum charge for 5 or more items, which is £19.95, plus 8 sponsor's marks at 20p, so a further £1.60. Then there's the £3.25 packet handling and then of course the dreaded VAT. I can't see you being charged a handling charge judging by how you're sending the items in.

[medusa]

pearlescence - I'm really sorry to hear about your losses, but as they went by royal mail special delivery and were subsequently lost by them then I think that would be down to royal mail? We would handle your claim for you as we are "the sender", but we can't be held responsible for RM's logistics. Customers are always welcome to arrange shipping by any method including couriers, and parcels are sent in by a wide variety of methods.

I think she was complaining about RM not you guys for loosing the packets. Have to say I've never ever had anything go missing via SD, so twice in a month must be horrendous luck.


Wallace - The reason we charge £3.25 packet handling is that despite my best efforts, the guy in the post room stubbornly refuses to work for nothing lol!! Seriously as most of our work is done on a "time" basis we do need to charge out for re-wrapping and getting your parcel to the postman.

I recall this reasoning before. Given it takes a maximum of five minutes to stuff stuff into an envelope and address it, can I please have a job at £39 per hour?:)

[SteveLAO]

hahahahahahaha:) The goods need to be checked against the hallnote, and weighed to confirm the total weight of the goods are the same as when they arrived. This is another of our many security checks to make sure everything is there and nothing is missing. Goods then repacked, addressed and reweighed with all the original packaging again to ensure the weights correspond to the original weight when the goods arrived as a final check before they go out to the post. What a fiddly job!! You wouldn't want the job Medusa :).

[Wallace]

hahahahahahaha:) The goods need to be checked against the hallnote, and weighed to confirm the total weight of the goods are the same as when they arrived. This is another of our many security checks to make sure everything is there and nothing is missing. Goods then repacked, addressed and reweighed with all the original packaging again to ensure the weights correspond to the original weight when the goods arrived as a final check before they go out to the post. What a fiddly job!! You wouldn't want the job Medusa :).

Well, given the very tidy and neat job, I am happy with the result...and would like to ask for some help with birthday and Christmas pressie wrapping too *-:). Really, really cannot fault LAO, wish I had gone years ago!

[SteveLAO]

Thank you Wallace, that's very kind of you to say so. :) Present wrapping masterclasses to follow later in the year LOL :)

[art925]

hahahahahahaha:) The goods need to be checked against the hallnote, and weighed to confirm the total weight of the goods are the same as when they arrived. This is another of our many security checks to make sure everything is there and nothing is missing. Goods then repacked, addressed and reweighed with all the original packaging again to ensure the weights correspond to the original weight when the goods arrived as a final check before they go out to the post. What a fiddly job!! You wouldn't want the job Medusa :).

With my hallmarking office, we have the chance to purchase 15.00 Euro, a hardened solid plastic box with foam padding inside. This provides a secure box that secures the jewellery inside when the lid is closed, it is sealed for transportation, easy to unpack and repack, reducing costs. I actually never post to my assay office I have two boxes and take and pickup every Friday. Everything being barcoded, it makes it easier for me and my assay office.
Les

[Patstone]

That is a good idea, in fact if they did different sized ones perhaps three, one small, one medium, and one large it would cover everyones needs and also help the customer by having something secure to post the items in.



With my hallmarking office, we have the chance to purchase 15.00 Euro, a hardened solid plastic box with foam padding inside. This provides a secure box that secures the jewellery inside when the lid is closed, it is sealed for transportation, easy to unpack and repack, reducing costs. I actually never post to my assay office I have two boxes and take and pickup every Friday. Everything being barcoded, it makes it easier for me and my assay office.
Les

[SteveLAO]

Well funny you should say that.......Last year we trialed exactly that. Plastic corrugated boxes with foam inserts in three different sizes. The concept was if we could get all our customers to use them then it would make our life very easy in terms of packet handling and marking and the customer's life easier as they wouldn't have to scratch around for an old tobacco tin to send in their goods nor would they be charged handling. We sent them out to do a field trial with a number of our customers both big and small and the major problem we came across was the foam inserts! No matter what variations we used we couldn't satisfy everyone! Essentially, they worked well if all you made were rigid items such as rings or bangles. Flexible items such as chain or earrings were a nightmare as they all ended up in a ball in the corner of the box as there was no effective way of keeping them in place during postal transit. I notice from "925" that his goods are hand delivered and collected, which may be fine, but for goods sent in the post, whichever way we trialled them, they didn't work well, so we never took it further. If anyone is in London and passing by the office, if they come in and ask for me, I'd happily let them have a box to try out free of charge, as we had to have a minimum order of "quite a few" (you can imagine the quantities involved I'm sure!) and we still have some left over.

[ps_bond]

Out of interest Steve, what's the current turnaround time on packets?

[art925]

Well funny you should say that.......! Essentially, they worked well if all you made were rigid items such as rings or bangles. Flexible items such as chain or earrings were a nightmare as they all ended up in a ball in the corner of the box as there was no effective way of keeping them in place during postal transit. I notice from "925" that his goods are hand delivered and collected, which may be fine, but for goods sent in the post, whichever way we trialled them, they didn't work well, so we never took it further. If anyone is in London and passing by the office, if they come in and ask for me, I'd happily let them have a box to try out free of charge, as we had to have a minimum order of "quite a few" (you can imagine the quantities involved I'm sure!) and we still have some left over.
Mine has that egg crate packing foam that interlocks top and bottom, no matter how much I shake it (as if the postal service), everything stays in it's original place.

[Patstone]

Well Steve I am in Devon but I would love one. I can never find anything to put my stuff in apart from a Chinese takeaway box and quite often that is too large. The interlocking eggbox type foam is a good idea, I can probably find a bit of that lying around somewhere, for my stuff a small one would probably be big enough, if you give me the sizes I will send the money for posting it to me as a trial run.

[Anna Wales]

Same as Pat says Steve. I would be more than happy to buy a box/boxes and try it.

[SteveLAO]

ps bond - standard turnaround time is 3-5 working days, but we do an overnight service, a same day service and a one hour service as well.

Patstone and Anna Wales, if you'd like to pm me your details I'll send them out to you.

[ps_bond]

Anything more than overnight seems overkill when you have to face the vagaries of RM as well.

[Anna Wales]

ps bond - standard turnaround time is 3-5 working days, but we do an overnight service, a same day service and a one hour service as well.

Patstone and Anna Wales, if you'd like to pm me your details I'll send them out to you.

Thanks Steve.Pm sent.

[Anna Wales]

I've received the boxes as promised from Steve, so I thought I'd give an update. I assume I've had a small and a large box ( white corrugated plastic). Large is 39 x 25 x 17cms so way too big for me. Small one is 25 x 13 x 11cms and 200g. I've sent off my hallmarking today and I have to say I like the box. I always scratch around for something to put the parcel in but the items have been wrapped in kitchen roll then tucked in the foam (enclosed with box) and that's it. I put the box in a snug-fitting grey plastic mail bag. Thanks, Steve.

[ps_bond]

Likewise, thank you; the small is great for most things, although the bowl I sent in wouldn't have fitted in that. Quite pleased that I can *just* get the small into the prepay (ish) bags.
Should be good to see how they work going back & forth.

[SteveLAO]

do let me know how you get on then :)

[Truffle & Podge]

ooh are you sending out boxes? would love some that would fit the circlets i need to send once i get registered with you :)

[SteveLAO]

Let me know when you register and I'll send you some out to trial :)

[Christinewalsh]

Not strictly true. Take for example a silver item decorated with gold wire. The wire weighs less than a gram and the silver weighs 5g. No requirement to mark at all.
You need to look at individual weights of the metals. If the gold content weighs more than 1 gram then you'll need a mark on it. If the silver bit weighs more than 7.78g you'll need a mark on that too. In your case if I were you I'd have it all marked (and not just because I want the business!) If you have added gold then it must be to increase the value (or you would have gold plated the silver?). With a gold and silver hallmark on it the perceived value to the client increases, and so you would probably be able to charge more! (I mean even more than you would have charged plus the hallmarking charge BTW!)Plus of course no chance of infringing the act, if you're unsure how much the gold part weighed. (Note for next time - weigh the components before assembly to check the weights used :-) )

Does anyone know if this is still the case for items where both the individual gold and silver elements are under the legal weights? I was told recently that its not and am a little confused.

[Dennis]

Steve LAO posted that in 2013 and he is long retired. When it gets tricky, it's always best to check with your assay office. They will be open tomorrow.
Dennis.

[NickD]

a 5mm diameter sphere has a volume of 65.44984694978734 cubic millimeters (0.065449847 cubic centimeters)

pure golds atomic weight is 19.32 grms per cubic centimeter

0.065449847 x 19.32 = 1.2644901 grms for a pure gold sphere 5mm in diameter.

Best wishes

dave

o-m-g !!!!