have not thought this through at all

[Truffle & Podge]

OK I've ballpein hammered out my band and got a nice texture, and I've pierced my shapes that i want to solder on. Now here is where i have messed up, i couldn't resist giving one pierced piece and the band a bit of a polish up with rouge (just to be nosy y'know? new toys an all) Now I've realized rouged surfaces don't solder :(| also the hammered textured surface needs to be flat too where i want to solder. The band needs annealing (which is prob not good when polished up with rouge either) will pickling before annealing do anything about that? or what about a brass brush mandrel? Or is good old soap and water enough?
Once I've de-rouged (don't have a sonic cleaner thingy btw) do i....
step 1 anneal & pickle the band
step 2 mark where i want to solder and sand all the texture away (bit worried about it becoming very thin, also i want to just solder it at one point so the pierced pieces stand away from the band when it's bent round & i'd rather solder it before bending)
step 3 solder
Can some one please come up with an educated solution? i'm obviously away with the fairies! but to be fair it's been nearly 20 years since i picked up a proper jewellery tool that didn't just involve beads,plated wire, headpins and crimp rings
ARGH I'M SOOOOOOO DITZY!!
OOPS P.S to strengthen up the band i probably need to rawhide hammer it into the curve it needs don't i? which i should probably do before soldering anything on at all? and i have no idea how to protect the textured side which will be on the outer side of the curve aaaaaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhh! sorry for being so clueless I've forgotten everything i learned [-o<

[Patstone]

My ideas on this may not be correct but it is what I would do. Mix up a couple tablespoons of Household Ammonia with about 2 inches of water in a jam jar and let the piece sit in it for a couple of hours, then take out carefully and wash with a soft brush and Fairy Liquid (wear glasses tho as ammonia can be horrid stuff). As for protecting the bashed bits, I normally fold up an old towel into a pad to protect the hammered side otherwise it goes flat, or I guess a piece of hard rubber, often wondered if those leather things full of sand work, and if they are worth their money. I expect others will have better ideas, as I have only been making jewellery for around three years as a hobby. I would imagine the band would be strong enough if you have hammered it, but depends on how thick the silver is. Dont forget by soldering anything on it, it will probably anneal it again and make it soft. All I do to mine is put it in the tumbler for about five or six hours, dont know if thats enough to harden but its all mine gets and I havent had any complaints yet. Hope this helps, someone more experienced will be here soon I expect, Dennis is an early riser !!!!!!

[Wallace]

A good cleaning with hot soapy water and a brass brush should work to get that layer of polish off.
If you hammer to harden and have to solder again, you will soften it all again. A rawhide mallet will work, but leave it as the last thing you do the clean up, if you have delicate work, a mallet may not be suitable. Can you tumble the finished piece, if it has extra shapes to add?

As a reminder, solder doesn't fill holes, so flat surfaces need good contact. If you are doing a butt joint, a little bit of filing to bring them together would work and then use some sort of holding system (clamps, wire etc).

You could just file the contact areas you want to solder, annealing and pickling will immediately get rid of any polish residue. On occasion, I have had to rue pickle to get the solder to flow, as it will help clean the surface. I use Alum.

If you wanted to bend the ring into shape, you will need to do that after the first solder and then add your embellishments. If you add them before, you will flatten them as you shape the ring into place. (I think I understood that you have a straight piece you are going to make into a round.). Soldering softens metal, get your shape ready. Soldering can also lead to fire scale if it is repeated and the item is not protected. The copper likes the oxygen and will be affected under the surface. Prepare everything to tie in for a swift heating process. Clean and flat and matching shaped joints that have contact, make for good results. I have patterned my metal after rounding, but on occasion have used pre-patterned work. To make sue the solder doesn't ruin things, make sure you get the pallions (or that moist paste stuff) behind the joint and use the heat to pull it through.

Oh, I hope this makes sense
Kindest
Wallace

[Dennis]

Pat and Wallace have given you all the advice you need really and in your case I too think it best to add the embellishments after forming the ring. Provided you melt on the solder to the under surface of each pierced bit and slightly bevel the lower edge of each one, the solder will tend to stay back and not flow out when reheated in place.

You might just curve each piece slightly to match the ring, but a light hammer texture wold normally not inhibit the join, provided there is enough solder. I don't know how many additions you have, but I would probably only add one or two at a time, using easy solder throughout. Dennis

[Truffle & Podge]

i should probably have mentioned that i'm making a head circlet so it's a lot larger than a ring, the main piece (band) is about 25.5 cm in length but is curved into shapes in the centre it is made with 2mm hammered down wire there are 4 pierced shapes, 2 are leaves about 4.5 cm long (pierced inside with veins as well so very delicate) 2.5 cm at widest point made with 0.5 thickness sheet they are to be positioned towards each end of the band about 4.5 cm from the ends. the final two pierced sections are small hearts about 1.5cm by 1cm which will be closer to the centre of the band. There is then some more elaborately curved and scrolled 1mm wire which will be left round ( not hammered ) which will sit behind the bands main design and i will then finally add some swarovski crystal sprigs and a teardrop pendant in the centre by wire wrapping with 0.4 wire but that's right at the end after everything else is polished up and finished. There is a chain which will complete the circlet attached to small drill holes at the ends of the band which teardrop out and i will need to solder the jump rings on that.
I have the very basic equipment so no barrel tumbler etc
I'm a little worried about annealing the band it being so long and everything but i have heard that as long as each part of the metal is heated to the required temp it doesn't have to be all at exactly the same time so you can move slowly along the length annealing as you go is that right?
On a last note it's only the band which is textured the rest will be polished up to mirror, thinking about it it would prob help to bring the non textured pieces on the sides that are not going to be soldered to as high a finish as poss before soldering (with out compounds) so finishing is easier on the delicate parts?
Just had a thought, could i flat hammer the solder points on the band to remove the texture? it will be covered by the pierced pieces.

[Truffle & Podge]

A good cleaning with hot soapy water and a brass brush should work to get that layer of polish off.
If you hammer to harden and have to solder again, you will soften it all again. A rawhide mallet will work, but leave it as the last thing you do the clean up, if you have delicate work, a mallet may not be suitable. Can you tumble the finished piece, if it has extra shapes to add?

As a reminder, solder doesn't fill holes, so flat surfaces need good contact. If you are doing a butt joint, a little bit of filing to bring them together would work and then use some sort of holding system (clamps, wire etc).

You could just file the contact areas you want to solder, annealing and pickling will immediately get rid of any polish residue. On occasion, I have had to rue pickle to get the solder to flow, as it will help clean the surface. I use Alum.

If you wanted to bend the ring into shape, you will need to do that after the first solder and then add your embellishments. If you add them before, you will flatten them as you shape the ring into place. (I think I understood that you have a straight piece you are going to make into a round.). Soldering softens metal, get your shape ready. Soldering can also lead to fire scale if it is repeated and the item is not protected. The copper likes the oxygen and will be affected under the surface. Prepare everything to tie in for a swift heating process. Clean and flat and matching shaped joints that have contact, make for good results. I have patterned my metal after rounding, but on occasion have used pre-patterned work. To make sue the solder doesn't ruin things, make sure you get the pallions (or that moist paste stuff) behind the joint and use the heat to pull it through.

Oh, I hope this makes sense
Kindest
Wallace

Sorry to be a ditz but whats rue pickling?

Thanks so much for all your help guys X

[Goldsmith]

A few simple tips, buy yourself a fibre glass pencil like one of these; http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Glass-Pencil-Brush-prcode-999-183
Then all you need to do is use this fibre glass pencil to clean the two surfaces that you wish to solder together. I would also use a clamp to hold the piece you wish to solder to the head band in place while soldering. In simple terms I would clean both solder surfaces with the fibre brush, add flux to both surfaces and clamp the two pieces together with a small piece of solder held between them, then I would heat until I see the solder flush. I make my own soldering clamps from pierced strips of 0.90mm. thick stainless steel , bent with a pair of pliers to any shape required.
I have shown them before but you may not have seen them so here is a re posting of my soldering clamp explanation photo sheet.

James
4709

[Truffle & Podge]

those clamps look so clever! would reverse action tweezers work as well? my father in law ( to be ) made me a pair with thick ends

[Goldsmith]

those clamps look so clever! would reverse action tweezers work as well? my father in law ( to be ) made me a pair with thick ends

yes reverse action tweezers work on some jobs, but they can sometimes take the heat away from what you are soldering, I have been in this trade for 52 years now and have used clamps of various types, but these clamps I show have been the best option. When I first showed these clamps, someone asked how difficult they were to make, I did a timed test run and made this clamp in under 4 minutes from my stock of Stainless steel sheet, bought off eBay, see; http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/stainless-steel-sheet-600-x300-x-9mm-304-grade-brushed-/300405442045 this is enough for a lifetime of clamps and such like and all for under £18 including postage.

This was the clamp I made in under 4 minutes.

James

4710

[Wallace]

Lol.... That is my iPad, it likes to retype things to keep me alert, but it was early and caught me out!.... It should have said, "use pickle" Lolololololol...

[Truffle & Podge]

4 MINS!!!!! experience definitely showing there! 52 years wow can you send me all that knowledge telepathically? lol
Tasha x

[Truffle & Podge]

Lol.... That is my iPad, it likes to retype things to keep me alert, but it was early and caught me out!.... It should have said, "use pickle" Lolololololol...
roflol :rofl: ooh the amount of times that's happened to me on my phone, then i wonder why i get funny looks from people i've text!
Tasha x

[Goldsmith]

4 MINS!!!!! experience definitely showing there! 52 years wow can you send me all that knowledge telepathically? lol
Tasha x

I started an apprentiship when I was 15 back in 1961, I have made most things in my career and am quite happy to help with advice when asked. If you are interested just click on my tag name ,Goldsmith and view my profile,there you can see an album of a small selection of my work.

James
James Miller FIPG.

[Truffle & Podge]

I started an apprentiship when I was 15 back in 1961, I have made most things in my career and am quite happy to help with advice when asked. If you are interested just click on my tag name ,Goldsmith and view my profile,there you can see an album of a small selection of my work.

James
James Miller FIPG.
just had a look WOWSERS! OMG I give up already lol, those are truly incredible pieces :worthy:
Would you mind looking back at my previous posts in this thread about annealing longish pieces and whether to polish up without compound the pierced pieces before soldering to get rid of scratches etc and tell me if the process is correct?, if i'm soldering in small places on a 25.5 cm length surely the soldering won't anneal the full length will it? so should i anneal the length bend into shape then solder? i'm still petrified of over heating ( & to be honest scared of the torch itself lol)
Tasha x

[Truffle & Podge]

Sorry James just googled you and you are a total legend!
Tasha x

[Goldsmith]

Glad that you like my work Tasha, it's difficult for anyone to give advice without seeing photos of what you are making, if I was making a headpiece with items that needed texturing and soldering this would be my method. Usually the silver comes in an annealed state, so I would have first shaped the headband and just textured the areas that will have items soldered onto, then I would have pierced the items, filed them where needed, and used fine emory papers to remove any scratches before soldering them in place and then pickling them clean. Then I would have hammer textured the whole headband, which would harden the metal before finally polishing with a Tripoli or similar compound to remove any marks, and then a final rouge compound to make the surface shine. Then as you have no cleaning machinery, I would fill a bowl with hot soap[y water, Fairy liquid will do, and use a soft brush to wash any polishing compound off, just dabb the soapy brush onto any pierced areas that may have polish lodged inside. Dry the piece when finished, and if there are any areas that do not shine, just polish with a clean soft polishing mop. If you have used a polishing mop with rouge, just run the mop over an old knife blade and this will remove any polishing compound.
I hope this makes sense, I am sorry but I have no idea of your tool or workshop facilities.
I also meant to ask what type of soldering torch you use? and do you know about using a rouge paste mixture to protect earlier solder joins when doing multiple solderings on the same piece. This is just rouge powder mixed with water into a thick paste and when painted onto earlier solder joints it solidifys when heated and protects the earlier solder joins, then after soldering it is washed off under a running tap before pickling, otherwise you will end up with red pickle.

James

[Truffle & Podge]

James you are an angel! That rouge paste tip is fantastic! :ta: i will try and post some pics of what i have already done (new to forum so will have to work that one out ) at the moment the head band is flat and the texturing has hardened it to a point where i really need to anneal it, do i have to bring the entire length to annealing temp at precisely the exact time? The torch i'm using is a butane cooks torch ( i know i know but it's a hobby & i'm poor lol ) i also have a calor gas blow torch with a wide head but it scares the life out of me tbh, I've practiced annealing with both on short lengths using the permanent marker method and even on a billowy or neutral flame the calor gas was far too hot, the cooks torch seemed to give me more control and still worked very quickly but i'm sure there is no way i can heat the entire length so it's the same temp all along it
Tasha x

[Goldsmith]

Tasha, to anneal a length just gently start at one end, heat a few inches at a time working along the strip. Do this in the dark and you will be able to see that you don't overheat the silver. You do not need to heat the whole length to the same temperature at the same time to anneal it.

To post photos, press the Go Advanced button and you can then post photos from computer files.

James

[Truffle & Podge]

Ok here goes i took these on my phone so they aren't very good also the sketch is really bad and is just a rough draft sorry

[Goldsmith]

Tasha, looking at what you are making, I think that when you solder the leaves in place the heat that you use will anneal the areas that you will want to bend, so I would not worry about annealling the main frame just yet. If you can make yourself some clamps, they would be perfect for this job. To solder the leaves to the textured frame, I would clean both soldering surfaces where you intend soldering, either with a fibre glass brush or just a file or scraper. Then I would gently melt a piece of fluxed solder on the fluxed leaf end you wish to solder, just melted enough to stick the solder to the leaf end, then clamp the leaf in place on the fluxed wire frame and heat again to run the solder. Then I would repeat the process with the assumed mirror image leaf, pickle the solder joints, clean them up if needed, then just rouge paste the solder joints when soldering the next pieces.
I hope this all makes sense.
James

[Truffle & Podge]

Ok so it's basically sweat soldering, can you allow the leaf (or whatever) to cool sufficiently enough to pick it up with your fingers to position it? Been practicing with tweezers positioning the bits to clamp together (without soldering) and its sooooo fiddly i just can't do it :'(

[Wallace]

yes of course, best way if you want to keep your fingers in tact too. lol

Cool set them together, clamp or bind and reheat - should warm up but they will still act independently and heat at different rates, make sure you heat the bigger piece first. When you get a nice orange glow, you might see them 'sigh' into each other as the solder spreads through.

try on some scrap first. Even if it is copper, it will help. Practice will lead to getting it right as you will learn as you are applying what you do.

[Truffle & Podge]

Thanks Wallace! had a practice, sounds silly but i get all panicky when i see the oxidization happening and keep thinking I've over heated it all and it's going to go brittle and snap and then i would cry and cry and throw a big tantrum, chuck my bench out the window and squash a pedestrian. Then i would get arrested and have to go to prison and never ever ever see daylight again! argh!............................................. ....................:'( ummmm think i went a little over the top there PANIC PANTS!!!! lol X

[Wallace]

Thanks Wallace! had a practice, sounds silly but i get all panicky when i see the oxidization happening and keep thinking I've over heated it all and it's going to go brittle and snap and then i would cry and cry and throw a big tantrum, chuck my bench out the window and squash a pedestrian. Then i would get arrested and have to go to prison and never ever ever see daylight again! argh!............................................. ....................:'( ummmm think i went a little over the top there PANIC PANTS!!!! lol X

the first piece I ever heated, I thought I had ruined as it turned black and I didn't know what to do! I had to find an amazing book by Carls Codena to put me on the straight and narrow. I have since purchased many more books by an amazing amount of artists, I dream to have 1/100 of their skill!! Tried and failed, laughed and cried, nearly lost my left and right finger tips (ambidextrous is twice as risky, trust me!) lol

Panic Pants works for me! I ended up throwing a hissy fit after I melted all my pieces once, as I was trying to short cut without using any sort of heat resist. (rouge, as Jim mentioned is the bees knees, well not really bees, otherwise the rouge wouldn't be red and we might get done for cruelty to the humble bumble) :D

It is practice. Off cuts make for the best tests on solders, shapes that match, trial hinges - and sometimes that unique piece of metal art from all that experimentation.

to reduce oxidization, you can use another flux. Prips solution (I did a little write up sometime ago on it - solved the issue with crystallisation - old school trick of syphoning... if you get to read it) Only heat what you must and if it takes too long or has too many heating sessions it will start to grey up. You can also do some surface 'depletion' a method favoured by Jenson. Polishing needs to be minimal if you do that.

Depletion is bringing the pure silver to the top without it reticulating.... oh, I can see circles here.... Depletion happens when you see that nice shiny bit of silver when you heat your metal. It happens in a flash, and you need to do it four or five times (ish).

Reticulation is bringing the silver to the surface with attitude! The silver makes ripples and texture. Les won a comp this year with his lovely reticulated pendant. Worth a look-see.

essentially, don't beat yourself up - refreshing skills will take its time and you need to get your brain to learn new things and new results. It will work and you will restore your former skills. I have only been at this very part time over the last 8 or nine years as I do this after my day job, parent and dutiful daughter roles. (Notice I didn't say housekeeping role... pah, who needs to clean the house when the mess is at the bench!).

sorry have rambled on. Love your experiments, enjoy your challenges and if it isn't quite right, turn it into something else, if you can. You will get there.

[Truffle & Podge]

Thank you Wallace that was a beautiful post, you are very kind and don't worry about rambling it's great!:Y: it's really good to hear about all these different things you can try, gonna have a look through see if i can find that write up you did.
just had a quick check on a very small double ended solder practice that was black and yellow and looked like hell IT'S SHINY!!!! cept the solder seems to still be yellowy coloured ? i'm sure it's silver solder can that be right????

[Truffle & Podge]

oh forgot to mention i "liked" ur FB page couple weeks back :D

[Wallace]

Thank you Wallace that was a beautiful post, you are very kind and don't worry about rambling it's great!:Y: it's really good to hear about all these different things you can try, gonna have a look through see if i can find that write up you did.
just had a quick check on a very small double ended solder practice that was black and yellow and looked like hell IT'S SHINY!!!! cept the solder seems to still be yellowy coloured ? i'm sure it's silver solder can that be right????

thank you , I should come here a little more often, but work has had me worried for a couple of months and nobody really wants to hear me grizzle. Even the cat gives up and walks out!

Can I ask, was it solder paste? That has a tendency to spontaneously add an unusual colour when heated to particular temperatures? Yellow coloured does sound more on the need to pickle to get the oxides off. Sometimes the flux will give a pretty colour to the solder. If it is still yellow after that, best check your supply. Oooo, errrr.


oh forgot to mention i "liked" ur FB page couple weeks back :D

thank you - love to chat there, do stop and ask questions or just come for a giggle - love to challenge the grey matter, goes with the grey hair and laughing is great medicine for the soul.

(G knows that one)

[Truffle & Podge]

no it was strip solder and it's just fallen apart so don't know if i've got some bits mixed up? or if the reverse tweezers are getting hot and adding some chemical into the mix that i dont know of, tbh i was given the solder by the father in law to be and he swears its silver it's quite old i think and so hard to cut even when hammered right down which takes a lot of pounding but other practice joins are fine X

[Wallace]

no it was strip solder and it's just fallen apart so don't know if i've got some bits mixed up? or if the reverse tweezers are getting hot and adding some chemical into the mix that i dont know of, tbh i was given the solder by the father in law to be and he swears its silver it's quite old i think and so hard to cut even when hammered right down which takes a lot of pounding but other practice joins are fine X

hmm, I would take a risky shot and say that it might be old nickel silver solder. May be best to get some fresh stock. I can send a little bit to you if you are adding the leaves, some soft solder would be best as you won't need to over heat or make it heat up too long.

[Truffle & Podge]

hmm, I would take a risky shot and say that it might be old nickel silver solder. May be best to get some fresh stock. I can send a little bit to you if you are adding the leaves, some soft solder would be best as you won't need to over heat or make it heat up too long.
that would be fab but i'm soldering 4 pieces to the headband and was told to use hard (do you know the cheapest seller other than cookies? palmers is good for pricing but they take several days to ship :( X

[Wallace]

that would be fab but i'm soldering 4 pieces to the headband and was told to use hard (do you know the cheapest seller other than cookies? palmers is good for pricing but they take several days to ship :( X

if you contact Palmers, they will send it out the same day - but as it is freepost - the postal system may be part of the delay as I think it might be second class delivery.

cousins are a good stand by

Rashbels too - they have sped up their processing times. I got mine the next day after ordering from them, so I think they may have been a little positive on the change following some feedback.

Cookies, as we know strive to give customer excellence

[pearlescence]

EBay

...........

[Dennis]

Reams have been written about this now Tasha and there is probably enough for a book. But given your aversion to large torches, I would go for extra easy solder. It is still of hallmarking quality but has a lower melting point.

I am quite confident it will be strong enough, because more than a year ago I re-soldered a wire oven shelf with it and it is still working well. Dennis.

http://www.cooksongold.com/category_select.jsp?query=Silver+solder

[Truffle & Podge]

Reams have been written about this now Tasha and there is probably enough for a book. But given your aversion to large torches, I would go for extra easy solder. It is still of hallmarking quality but has a lower melting point.

I am quite confident it will be strong enough, because more than a year ago I re-soldered a wire oven shelf with it and it is still working well. Dennis.

http://www.cooksongold.com/category_select.jsp?query=Silver+solder

Thanks Dennis, my local jeweler jumped in with an inch long piece to save me. To be honest I think my little torch is quite powerful, so a bit more worried it would run too quickly but will def keep all the advice in mind when i come to purchase some.
My fear is a bit weird i'm sort of more afraid of holding a gas canister and the big hissy sound..I really need to get over it lol X