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bustagasket
21-08-2009, 11:54 AM
Ok i bought some solder paste cos you guys raved about it and i knew i had a lot of jump rings to solder so i have just tried it but i must be doing something very wrong cos it doesnt seem to run into the join it just stays in the glob that was put on there.

Could someone please tell me what i am not doing, i made sure the joinft was clean and dry and the applied the paste, and then evenly heated up the jump ring. So what bit did i do wrong, cos i now got some filing to do lol and this is on my little bracelet with the double links and i wanted to get on today :(

MuranoSilver
21-08-2009, 11:54 AM
It does flow eventually - honest :)

julie
21-08-2009, 11:56 AM
sorry can't help you but someone will be along shortly to give advice ...

bustagasket
21-08-2009, 11:57 AM
lol i am terrified of keeping the heat on too long and the jump rings shivelling does it normally take several minutes before it moves? and i do mean several lol and should i use the tip of the blue flame waving back oand forth or a soft orange flame?

The Bijou Dragon
21-08-2009, 11:59 AM
I honestly find that the tip of the blue flame about 1cm in front (into the orange bit) usually works best for me :)

Sometimes my stuff looks like it's on the verge of melting as well, maybe you just didn't heat it enough perhaps?

I'm scared of melting stuff too so I know how you feel!

bustagasket
21-08-2009, 12:00 PM
ok i will go and heat it again :) thanks

mizgeorge
21-08-2009, 12:54 PM
sounds like you're not getting nearly hot enough. Depending on your torch, the hottest spot is usually just after the tip of the blue cone. In terms of how long, I reckon on soldering jump rings made with 0.8mm wire and medium or easy solder in a matter of seconds - no more than five (and as little as two) depending on which torch I'm using and how careful I'm being.

caroleallen
21-08-2009, 12:57 PM
Yeah, don't be a scaredy cat. Get it nice and hot. You'll soon get the hang of it and if you melt a couple, it won't be the end of the world. Good luck.

bustagasket
21-08-2009, 01:12 PM
lol i am resorting back to the old fashioned method for the rest of this bracelet and then i will practice on some scraps. I even find it hard to make the paste actually sit on the join it prefers being attached to the syringe rather than sitting on the link!!!

julie
21-08-2009, 01:25 PM
lol i am resorting back to the old fashioned method for the rest of this bracelet and then i will practice on some scraps. I even find it hard to make the paste actually sit on the join it prefers being attached to the syringe rather than sitting on the link!!!

i've never used paste do you still have to flux ???

Solunar Silver Studio
21-08-2009, 01:34 PM
lol i am resorting back to the old fashioned method for the rest of this bracelet and then i will practice on some scraps. I even find it hard to make the paste actually sit on the join it prefers being attached to the syringe rather than sitting on the link!!!

I agree Su' - I bought some of this stuff back in the winter and could hardly get it out of the syringe....oooo me arthritic thumbs!! When I moaned on the forum a couple of weeks ago Nic suggested that it squeezes out better if it is warm. Now I know it has not been a very warm summer and all that....but - are you keeping it in the fridge or something (clutching at straws here!! hee hee!) Anyway - you are not alone with having rigid paste that won't lie down!! I'd love to know if you eventually manage to tame it!!

OOO, sorry - meant to add that I agree with bijou and george about the hottest bit being well in front of the blue cone. I know they say at the tip of the cone at college but I've always found it hotter considerably further on down the flame...and the fiercer you have the torch turned on the further away you need to hold it!

Charlotte
21-08-2009, 01:43 PM
Did you get the easy paste? (680 degrees melting point?) I melt fine wire (0.4mm) quite easily without the wire melting (the technique that I use is to hold the flame near but not on the link, and as soon as it gets a bit of heat up (the paste smokes) then I flash the flame over it (the end of the blue bit of the flame).

You only need a tiny bit of paste, so as tough as it is to squeeze it it shouldn't take much to get it out. It does sound like its a bit dry though if its sticking to the syringe.

Julie - You done need to flux, the paste is solder and flux mixed together... clever stuff... I use both methods depending on what I'm doing... I ALWAYS use paste for links though!

julie
21-08-2009, 01:52 PM
Did you get the easy paste? (680 degrees melting point?) I melt fine wire (0.4mm) quite easily without the wire melting (the technique that I use is to hold the flame near but not on the link, and as soon as it gets a bit of heat up (the paste smokes) then I flash the flame over it (the end of the blue bit of the flame).

You only need a tiny bit of paste, so as tough as it is to squeeze it it shouldn't take much to get it out. It does sound like its a bit dry though if its sticking to the syringe.

Julie - You done need to flux, the paste is solder and flux mixed together... clever stuff... I use both methods depending on what I'm doing... I ALWAYS use paste for links though!

thank you charlotte does sound good might have to give it ago :Y:

Charlotte
21-08-2009, 01:58 PM
Its quite expensive, but it seems to last a very long time, and you can change from strip to paste whenever it suits. I would recommend it, it can be SOOOOoooooo helpful sometimes when you just can't balance a piece of strip or cut a piece small enough.

Charlotte
21-08-2009, 02:00 PM
Su,

Do not panic.....Make sure your little torch is absolutely full of gas

OMG, YES! This can make a huge difference, the amount of times I've seen no difference in the flame but couldn't get something hot enough then topped it up with gas its like a whole new torch again!#-o

bustagasket
21-08-2009, 02:15 PM
the torch dam near went out of the window just now. roll on 30 mins time when the pain killers kick in. it wont stop hurting but i will be a lot happier about it lol

Charlotte
21-08-2009, 02:19 PM
Lol, you've got to love pain relief pills... I had to come off mine when I started seeing chickens and clowns though[-X

Hope you feel better quickly... go have a hot bath and a glass of wine (its Friday afterall;)) and go back to the jewellery after:Y:

MuranoSilver
21-08-2009, 02:38 PM
Su have you melted a few things on purpose yet?
If not then it would be a really really useful thing to do....
Assemble a jump ring like you normally would, squidge a bit of paste solder out
(I normally scoop a bit on a toothpick and apply it in a blob on the join)
lie it on your solder block and heat it until the solder melts...

Then deliberately keep heating, keep heating until the silver jump ring melts observe the way the silver goes
extra shiny & fluid looking. You'll find soldering a lot easier once you've done that a few times :D
Nic xx

Charlotte
21-08-2009, 02:44 PM
Lol, yeah... a planned mistake is better than messing up your actual work... I wish I'd done it that way;)

bustagasket
21-08-2009, 02:56 PM
Su have you melted a few things on purpose yet?
If not then it would be a really really useful thing to do....
Assemble a jump ring like you normally would, squidge a bit of paste solder out
(I normally scoop a bit on a toothpick and apply it in a blob on the join)
lie it on your solder block and heat it until the solder melts...

Then deliberately keep heating, keep heating until the silver jump ring melts observe the way the silver goes
extra shiny & fluid looking. You'll find soldering a lot easier once you've done that a few times :D
Nic xx

oo thanks nic, i will have a go at that when i regain control of my legs again :D

mizgeorge
21-08-2009, 03:56 PM
deliberate melting is really important to help understand what the metals you're working with will do, and when.
Back to soldering jump rings though, if you're not finding paste easy, you might want to try the pick method, which is definitely easier than using a pallion. I prefer this method for filligree and other multiply joined pieces as well.

Set up the jump ring as usual, making sure the ends are really well butted together.
Flux well (I prefer auflux for this as you can see what's going on far better than borax(
Cut a tiny pallion of solder and place it nearby, but not close enough to be affected by the flame onthe join
start heating the ring (or whatever) and get it really hot. When you feel it's reached soldering temperature (and this is where having deliberately melted stuff helps), pick up the pallion with your titanium pick and 'feed' it to the joint, where it will be just drawn in with the usual 'flash'.

I know it sounds slightly long winded, but is actually far quicker for most small stuff if you're not using paste, and isn't dependent on drying the flux off and hoping the pallions stay in place!

Ominicci
21-08-2009, 04:02 PM
Can't comment as I haven't used it but am absorbing all this information again!

bustagasket
21-08-2009, 04:09 PM
deliberate melting is really important to help understand what the metals you're working with will do, and when.
Back to soldering jump rings though, if you're not finding paste easy, you might want to try the pick method, which is definitely easier than using a pallion. I prefer this method for filligree and other multiply joined pieces as well.

Set up the jump ring as usual, making sure the ends are really well butted together.
Flux well (I prefer auflux for this as you can see what's going on far better than borax(
Cut a tiny pallion of solder and place it nearby, but not close enough to be affected by the flame onthe join
start heating the ring (or whatever) and get it really hot. When you feel it's reached soldering temperature (and this is where having deliberately melted stuff helps), pick up the pallion with your titanium pick and 'feed' it to the joint, where it will be just drawn in with the usual 'flash'.

I know it sounds slightly long winded, but is actually far quicker for most small stuff if you're not using paste, and isn't dependent on drying the flux off and hoping the pallions stay in place!

thats pretty much what i do although i use borax which i admit i find a pain to see thru

Matp85
21-08-2009, 07:30 PM
lol i cheat i have a laser machine so for jump rings i usually use that. but for my soldering i use wire solder depending on the carat.

bustagasket
21-08-2009, 07:40 PM
think that sounds way to clever for me lol

Charlotte
21-08-2009, 07:44 PM
Lol, the laser machine is like the fanciest thing you can get, I'd love to have a go with one but I don't think its something you buy for a small business or hobby;) Where did you study jewellery Mat? Or did you know nothing until you got your apprenticeship?

Matp85
21-08-2009, 07:46 PM
well the laser machine uses the a beam to bond the gold to gold so there is no need for solder and theirs no fire skin. carbonation happens but most times that can be steamed off or lightly buffed. also the reaction is very quick so heat can be managed to perfection.

i didnt know anything about jewellery until i started the job but with stern bosses and beatings when needed the knowledge and passion has grown on me. although i dont own a single piece of jewellery :P

bustagasket
21-08-2009, 07:47 PM
wow very high tech wayyyyyyyyyyy outta my league lol

corrinasmith
24-08-2009, 09:05 PM
I love working with the pastes! :"> I do use a bit of flux cos I like to make sure..... You will soon acquire the knack of nudging the paste of the nozzle over time. I find it much easier than trying to balance a snip of solder.

corrinasmith
24-08-2009, 09:11 PM
I must try the pick method but to date I have been too scaredy cat.

bustagasket
24-08-2009, 09:17 PM
I actually found that once i had warmed the paste up it seems to flow better and stuck to the links instead of sliding off when i removed the syringe lol so i dunno if they work better at a certain temp?

EmmaRose
25-08-2009, 12:08 PM
need more heat and less solder? (only takes weeeny amount for jump ring)
Julie the solder paste has flux in it and easy solder, ready to go!
Em

Maddie106
28-08-2009, 02:29 PM
lol i am resorting back to the old fashioned method for the rest of this bracelet and then i will practice on some scraps. I even find it hard to make the paste actually sit on the join it prefers being attached to the syringe rather than sitting on the link!!!

I find cocktail sticks an invaluable addition to my workshop for that very reason!
They are also brilliant for mixing up and application of small quantities of epoxy resin too..

Chris Hannett
Daisy Lee Jewellery

caroleallen
28-08-2009, 08:22 PM
I always use a pin to take a little bit of solder from the syringe (after taking off the needle) and direct the heat above the solder joint and gradually work down to the joint. If you direct the heat under the joint the solder just runs down the piece. Not sure if that makes sense but it's clear to me! :confused:

Boo
18-09-2009, 04:50 PM
I'm thinking of trying paste - I struggle cutting pallions small enough for many applications. I had already thought that scraping a little off the syringe with a scalpel blade and positioning it that way would be a better method, I've read many times on forums that getting the paste off the syringe onto your piece is hard work and wondered why people didn't try using something like their pick.

I have a pot of assorted cocktail sticks and wood skewers on my bench that get used for many things. I like polishing with one too - a bit of polish on the tip gets into crannies and corners a treat.

What I wanted to ask was if paste might be suitable for one task I'd doing at the moment where the solder is unpredictable. I'm making several pieces with nuggets of melted scrap silver on (some photos in my album) - would paste be suitable to spread on the back of the nugget before positioning, then heat to solder. I've never been trained to solder and whilst I think I understand the principles, I'm not sure if it's a good practice to put solder between pieces to be joined flatly like that.

For soldered joins, I normally get a good really flush join with no daylight visible and try and draw the solder between the two parts, from adjacent. But if I butt some solder next to the nugget and try and draw it underneath, it often flows over the domed outer surface instead. I sand both surfaces first to be nice and flat. But wondered if this might be a good application for paste?

agent_44
18-09-2009, 04:56 PM
I think it probably would be Boo, and from my experience definitely better than pallions. I find with applications like you are describing, the paste can actually help hold the pieces together until the solder flows. I'd guess that you'd have a much better chance of the solder flowing where you wanted if nothing else.

mizgeorge
18-09-2009, 05:05 PM
Paste would be OK, but I think I'd sweat solder something like this. Apply the solder to just one surface, heat until it flows, and then sand back to flat so only a thin layer remains on where you need to add the next bit. Flux again, position the next piece on top and then heat the whole lot until the solder flows and makes the join. That's a really bad description, but there's probably a video around somewhere to help!

Boo
18-09-2009, 05:39 PM
Ah thanks, that sounds more like it George. I did actually do that last night, more by chance than good judgement and it worked well. I wasn't sure if putting the solder between flat surfaces would give rise to a solid enough join and was considered good practice, as your surfaces aren't flush when you apply the heat. I hoped that the nuggets are heavy enough that as the solder flows, they close the gap by gravity.

Many thanks, I'll try that, as you described - it made perfect sense.

I will try some paste solder though for small rings etc. If you make a good joint, you actually need less solder than you can reasonably cut from strip.

Di Sandland
18-09-2009, 05:53 PM
I use paste solder for jump rings Boo. I couldn't manage them with pallions as it was all a bit fiddly but with the paste I don't seem to have any problems I do use the pick and (ssshhh) I sort of push it into the almost non-existent space with my fingers.

caroleallen
18-09-2009, 06:27 PM
When I solder a small gold ball into the middle of a flower I use paste under the ball and it works very well.

Boo
19-09-2009, 02:49 PM
I think I'd sweat solder something like this.
I just did a pair of hammered rings with a nugget each, to match the circular nugget pendant in my albums and your technique worked a treat thanks - much more controllable solder this way. I did one that way yesterday by accident - in that the solder flowed but the nugget jumped out of position and didn't adhere properly, so I broke it apart and sanded the surfaces and re-fluxed and heated, hence asking about the soundness of putting solder between the surfaces and if paste was suitable for this sort of application.

I did it deliberately this time and when I came to join them I fluxed both surfaces and applied a little modest heat until the flux went gummy and stuck the pieces together enough to move them and removed the heat. I flipped them over so that the ring was on top of the nugget and the other side resting on a tuppence (I saw someone else make that suggestion here, so thanks) to keep it level and I could then apply the heat from the ring side which is much thinner and the solder flowed without risk of melting the thinner of the surfaces.

Worked a treat, nice neat join and no solder over the outer surface of the nugget.

Many thanks for sharing your knowledge, it's appreciated.

Di Sandland
19-09-2009, 02:50 PM
Great when things work, innit ;)

Green Monster
19-09-2009, 08:32 PM
for what its worth. This works for me.
I only use the pastes, they can set into a hard ball if you heat the ball of paste to rapidly ( it oxidizes in some way and sets) as others have said once the paste is applied, warm the ring away from the joint, using reflected heat of your solder block if possible,, the heat working through the metal to the join allows a slower warm up of the paste allowing the moisture in the flux to evaporate off safely, it seems to be the rapid boil of moisture that causes the "setting effect", you will see the past then start to soften and flow and at the point swiftly move the heat towards the joint and the paste solder should "flash" over and into the joint, remove the heat as soon as it does, prolonged heating after flashing will weaken the solder.

hope that makes sense.

Boo
20-09-2009, 12:22 PM
Great when things work, innit ;)
Indeed. Felt like another rung up the ladder yesterday - still a long, long way to go though.

The finished earrings are in my album - the Sterling silver round nugget earrings on the maple leaf that should show first. Polished them up and finished them late last night.

I will definitely get some paste for rings, I find it impossible to cut a pallion small enough when you get a really good flush join, then you have to file all the excess off. So thanks for the various tips on it. We're going on holiday next weekend, so this is something I'll address when we're back.

Di Sandland
20-09-2009, 05:27 PM
They're beautiful, Boo, and worth the small amount of anguish they caused. :Y:

mizgeorge
20-09-2009, 05:52 PM
They're lovely Boo :)

Emerald
20-09-2009, 06:07 PM
beautiful, very classy :Y:

Boo
21-09-2009, 07:40 AM
Thank you kindly. The round earrings worked like a charm, everything went just right, it was a previous pendant I was making for me that I'd been unhappy with my solder control on. I was only even working on that because I'd made a mess of something else and was trying to rescue the materials and using it as an experiment. Testing with scrap never works for me as I know it doesn't matter, so I do my learning on proper pieces, if only for me to wear.

Emerald
21-09-2009, 11:11 AM
you can also hammer (or if you are lucky enough put it through the roller) the strip solder to make it flatter and easier to cut into small pieces (this also helps to make it go further)

Boo
21-09-2009, 11:48 AM
I do already hammer it, but find that cutting it is a bit of a hazardous experience. They either fly all over the place never to be seen again, or if you try and cup it with your hand, the blade-like slivers of solder tend to embed themselves into your flesh - unless anyone has any tips for doing a better job of it - it's possible that I'm missing a technique that they cover on day 1 at jewellery school *-:) And then I'll be all embarrassed in my incompetence.

ps_bond
21-09-2009, 11:50 AM
The thinner it is, the easier it is to cut. I usually place a fingertip (my own!) against the solder where it pokes out from the shears & let it fall into a film canister.

lorraineflee
22-09-2009, 03:56 PM
The thinner it is, the easier it is to cut. I usually place a fingertip (my own!) against the solder where it pokes out from the shears & let it fall into a film canister.

Is that the solder falling or the fingertip?

My OH chopped the tip off his finger with a pair of secateurs over the summer -not to be recommended!

Lorraine

ps_bond
22-09-2009, 05:38 PM
Is that the solder falling or the fingertip?

Well, I usually try for the solder.


My OH chopped the tip off his finger with a pair of secateurs over the summer -not to be recommended!

Did mine with a mandolin a couple of months ago. Glanced away as I was slicing apples... They were red before too.