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SilverBouillon
28-02-2013, 08:31 PM
What burs are needed the most for setting job? I noticed that in Young's Stone Setting book ball burs are mostly used.
So, ball bur set is in shopping list. Do I need ball burs from 5 to 8 mm also?
Cup burs are also in wish list.

What about hart burs? I definitely need some of them, but which ones? 90degrees, 70 degrees? I have mostly 5-6-8 mm gems for setting. All I found in books is information that hart burs exist, that's very helpful. :)
Setting burs? Do I need them at all?

Help please
And I promise, no more questions... for a while. :D

Wallace
28-02-2013, 09:34 PM
oh, keep on asking - it is lovely to be able to offer a tid-bit or read what someone else does. Sharing knowledge is excellent.

Burrs.... it will depend on the type of setting you want to do.

if you want to go for the flush and semi flush, Alan Revere recommends flame, stone and hart burrs. Getting hold of the burrs.... If you are near FDGTool (Orlando) you will be in a great position to get them economically and I will be very jealous! If you are thinking of tube setting with cabs, you would benefit from some inverted burrs to help create a ledge for them to sit on.


give us more of a clue to the direction. Chris, Dennis, Peter, James and several others will no doubt be more helpful. I mostly do flush, tube, or step bezels - but have only been at flush for the last year fully fledged.

look forward to more hints and tips from peeps.

SilverBouillon
28-02-2013, 09:58 PM
oh, keep on asking - it is lovely to be able to offer a tid-bit or read what someone else does. Sharing knowledge is excellent.
Thank you, Wallace

I will create a short list going into quick inventory, sizes and settings I'm interested in. Actually, all of setting, I want to try them all, it's fascinating.

I'm far from Orlando, about 5 hours of driving. Yep, all the good things are up north. Oh, but I'm close to Graves company which makes lapidary tools. :)

Dennis
28-02-2013, 10:12 PM
We all enjoy our favourite burrs, but a handy setter can tackle most jobs with only round burrs. All the others are luxuries in keeping with the definition posted by ps_bond on the other thread. Dennis.

silken
28-02-2013, 11:28 PM
It really depends what type of setting work you'll be doing. I've amassed quite a collection of burrs over the past few years but my go to burrs for setting are:

Set of lynx ball burrs in various sizes (bought from rio grande)
Set of lynx setting burrs in various sizes (again, bought from rio grande)
Set of lynx hart burrs in various sizes (you guessed it, from rio grande)
Cup burrs in a couple of different sizes (useful for lots of things especially rounding off prong tips)
Inverted cone burrs/cylinders burrs in various sizes (great for tube setting cabs, as recommended by the lovely Peter and Dennis in a thread I made the other week)

Those are my essentials. I don't often use the hart burrs as I don't always cut a bearer seat but they're handy to have in the workshop. I also don't often use the setting burrs any more. I find it quite easy to set faceted stones simply by cutting a seat with a ball burr. With setting burrs, you have to make sure that the burr is cutting at exactly the correct angle otherwise you'll end up with a wonky seat. You don't have this problem with ball burrs. As Dennis said, experienced setters can do an awful lot of work with the most basic ball burrs but not enthusiasts such as myself, I like to have the whole collection there to make my life a little bit easier ;)

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 01:05 AM
Thank you guys!

Here is a bit on stones:

oval gems (10x12, 9x8, 8x6, 7x5, and smaller, some calibrated, some not) prong, crown setting, maybe tube setting too.
small sapphires, not calibrated, from 3.5mm to 3.2mm- flush setting, tube setting.
oval cabs 8x10 - tube, prong.

That's the basic list so far.

I see that I need to concentrate on ball burs.
Emily, yes I'm going to purchase from riogrande. :) They have set of 24 from 0.4 to 3.1mm and set of 14 from 2.7 to 8mm. I think it will cover all my possible basic needs for the beginning.

As for cup burs I like Bush concave burs, but they are alone almost 40 dollars (sobbing) From another side it's better to get good ones, I think.
http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Busch-12-Piece-411T-3-in-1-Concave-Cutter-Bur-Set/346116?Pos=9

Only 3 sets of two kinds and $100 is there... :(

eta: I can get set of 12 ball burs from 0.5 to 2.5 and set of 14 from 2.7 to 8mm, and the total with cup burs will make $83.75- a bit better. :)

silken
01-03-2013, 06:36 AM
You don't really need lots of different cup burrs, I get along with just 1.2mm and 2mm, but that's just me :)

I have the sets of 23 and 14 ball burrs from rio grande and they have lasted me a loooooong time.

Don't despair though, I don't know whether you have to pay extra sales tax but at least you don't have to pay import VAT and customs fees on them. Us poor souls in the UK usually get a nice little card through the door telling us that we need to pay some crazy amount before we can get our nice parcel full of tools delivered. That said, it still works out cheaper for me to buy the sets from rio and they have larger sizes available (sorry Cookies lol).

I would definitely recommend getting a few single inverted cone burrs or cylinder burrs for when you're tube setting cabochons, it saves so much faffing around trying to get the pesky cabs to sit still.

ps_bond
01-03-2013, 07:01 AM
For prong setting, a 3-square file & a barette file work nicely. Hart burrs & cup burrs are nice to have - although I don't actually use hart burrs much - but you can do a lot with just the two files, albeit more slowly (cf accurate).
Flush setting (and grain setting) I use bud burrs and setting burrs for round stones; fancies require graver intervention (inverted cones are handy for cutting the bearing shelf).
Bezel setting - inverted cones and either the large round burr with the bottom cut off as suggested by Chris, or a decent size wheel burr with the bottom smoothed off.

GRAVERS!!! Onglette, bullstick, flat and round as a bare minimum - although I don't use the round for much other than bead raising if I haven't pre-cut the beads. They're more versatile than any burr.

Small burrs go blunt very quickly (0.5mm ball burrs for example); the sets are OK to find what you use most, then buy them in 6s. I've mostly switched to using shanked drills in a QR handpiece these days, but for a #30 handpiece jobber drill bits work nicely.

Patstone
01-03-2013, 07:19 AM
Sounds like a trip to Florida coming on Wallace, I remember when I asked the same questions.

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 10:50 AM
GRAVERS!!! Onglette, bullstick, flat and round as a bare minimum - although I don't use the round for much other than bead raising if I haven't pre-cut the beads. They're more versatile than any burr.
Yes! I did not add those in my tight budget yet. And for grain setting I also need beading tools. I can skip grain setting for later, but gravers must have, and they must be good quality.

Goldsmith
01-03-2013, 10:51 AM
As you will read all other suggestions, I am sure that you will realize that you cannot have too many different shapes and sizes of burrs. As Peter says you will find that most setters will also use gravers for trimming settings, before and after setting the stones. A good polished face flat graver or as we Brits call them scorpers, used for bright cutting between setting claws or beads can make a setting gleam.

James

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 10:55 AM
As you will read all other suggestions, I am sure that you will realize that you cannot have too many different shapes and sizes of burrs. James

Yes. I also realized that everyone has own preferences and I don't have my own yet :)
When I entered this jewelry making territory, I had no idea that I will be pretty much on my own because everyone uses own different style, has own preferences and tools.
I need my coffee and start thinking all over what I do need:)

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 10:58 AM
Sounds like a trip to Florida coming on Wallace, I remember when I asked the same questions.

So, he came to you? I don't mind, Wallace, get the tickets before summer starts! :)

ps_bond
01-03-2013, 11:12 AM
...as we Brits call them scorpers...

Mea culpa :)
I talk to more US engravers than UK ones...

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 11:12 AM
You don't really need lots of different cup burrs, I get along with just 1.2mm and 2mm, but that's just me :)

I have the sets of 23 and 14 ball burrs from rio grande and they have lasted me a loooooong time.

Don't despair though, I don't know whether you have to pay extra sales tax but at least you don't have to pay import VAT and customs fees on them. Us poor souls in the UK usually get a nice little card through the door telling us that we need to pay some crazy amount before we can get our nice parcel full of tools delivered. That said, it still works out cheaper for me to buy the sets from rio and they have larger sizes available (sorry Cookies lol).

I would definitely recommend getting a few single inverted cone burrs or cylinder burrs for when you're tube setting cabochons, it saves so much faffing around trying to get the pesky cabs to sit still.

What size of inverted cone burs do you use, and for what stone sizes?

I do have local supplier here, so I can skip postage, but I have to pay 7% state sales tax. So, it pretty much depends which supplier has an assortment I need and the weight of the package. Riogrande usually wins on small things. And the local supplier was good on heavy things (like rolling mill), and the opportunity to look at tools in person, not only online.

Your taxes are crazy, I heard you even pay tax for having TV. So far it's cheaper to start jewelry making here for sure. And I can hallmark my pieces myself.

medusa
01-03-2013, 11:23 AM
And I can hallmark my pieces myself.

tempted to just pop corn at this!

Hallmarking isn't something you can do yourself, it's an official independent process which proves that say 18ct gold is in fact 18ct gold. I know in the US it's a different system and you can put 'responsibility' marks on items, but they shouldn't be confused with hallmarks.

and yes, our taxes probably do seem crazy to an American citizen, but if you factor in what you have to pay for decent health insurance, then it's probably on a par.

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 11:27 AM
What do you think about this stone setting system? Must have or don't really need?

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Stone-Setting-System/113221?Pos=10

And gravers! They are not only in different shapes, but different sizes! How to choose one of each shape?

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 11:30 AM
if you factor in what you have to pay for decent health insurance, then it's probably on a par.

Yep, we better not start about health insurance...I would gladly exchange our health care system for your TV tax :)
There is no perfect country in the world.

Goldsmith
01-03-2013, 11:33 AM
Your taxes are crazy, I heard you even pay tax for having TV. So far it's cheaper to start jewelry making here for sure. And I can hallmark my pieces myself.[/QUOTE]

Oh yes our taxes are crazy, most things are cheaper for you in the USA and your tool suppliers are also stocking more items than most of ours. One thing I must correct you on, if you don't mind. You can mark your pieces, the term Hallmark refers to an official mark of metal purity given by the Goldsmith's Hall's Assay Offices. The rest of the world has just adopted the term Hallmark, which really means the Mark of the Hall, referring to the Goldsmith's Hall which has been going since 1327. Us London goldsmiths here in the UK refer to The Goldsmith's Hall as the Hall. See;http://www.thegoldsmiths.co.uk/goldsmiths'-hall/
and; http://www.thegoldsmiths.co.uk/welcome-to-the-assay-office/

Cheers, James

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 11:37 AM
Thanks James,
I meant that I can stamp my jewelry with metal purity mark myself, but I'm legally responsible if I stamp higher karats on lower karat alloy or fake precious alloys.
Thank you for interesting history tour.

Patstone
01-03-2013, 12:44 PM
Wallace is a "she" actually, very helpful girl, learnt a lot from her.

silken
01-03-2013, 12:48 PM
I have a couple of inverted cone burrs in 1.2mm - 2.1mm sizes. I also have cylinder burrs in the usual calibrated cabochon sizes and they work great for tube setting my cabs.

That setting punch set (stone setting system) that you listed is quite useful, in my opinion. It isn't necessary and you can definitely do without it but the bezel closing punches do speed things up a little if you're setting lots of standard round stones. I own the set and I do use it all the time just to finish setting my round stones. It's more of a luxury than a necessity though :)

Ah yes, the US health care system...well...I won't even get started on that! I'm not a fan of having to pay the TV license but I'm proud of our little old NHS, even if it does have serious flaws. I wouldn't be here without it.

silken
01-03-2013, 12:53 PM
Wallace is a "she" actually, very helpful girl, learnt a lot from her.


I agree, Wallace is a star :D

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 01:48 PM
Wallace is a "she" actually, very helpful girl, learnt a lot from her.

Ooops...
Wallace, your professional image looks so masculine :)

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 02:05 PM
I have a couple of inverted cone burrs in 1.2mm - 2.1mm sizes. I also have cylinder burrs in the usual calibrated cabochon sizes and they work great for tube setting my cabs.
Thank you, I will check inverted and cylinder burs.


That setting punch set (stone setting system) that you listed is quite useful, in my opinion. It isn't necessary and you can definitely do without it but the bezel closing punches do speed things up a little if you're setting lots of standard round stones. I own the set and I do use it all the time just to finish setting my round stones. It's more of a luxury than a necessity though :)
Got it. I'm not going to set lots of round stones, at least for now. Nice tool to have one day.


Ah yes, the US health care system...well...I won't even get started on that! I'm not a fan of having to pay the TV license but I'm proud of our little old NHS, even if it does have serious flaws. I wouldn't be here without it.
Don't make envious :) Our health insurance keeps getting more expensive, and the conditions are worse.
I know people who go abroad for serious diagnoses and treatment, it's better and cheaper. It's better stay healthy here.

Dennis
01-03-2013, 02:32 PM
What do you think about this stone setting system? Must have or don't really need?http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Stone-Setting-System/113221?Pos=10


These cups come in two shapes and as you can see they are only meant for round stones:

The shallow variety will only close prongs, or the collets around faceted stones.

The deeper variety will close and perfect the roundness of collets for cabochons as well, but the amount of pressure required means that most persons simply do not have the strength for lager stones, say above 4.0mm and you risk distorting delicate work if you try.

Another problem is that without great care the rims of these cups will descend onto the work and cut unintended curved grooves in the surface.

I have occasionally mounted one in a motor and used it to burnish a collet at speed, but that is a fairly risky business. Dennis

ps_bond
01-03-2013, 02:35 PM
I have a set of bezel closers. I have never used them to close a bezel... I *do* use them as an aid for stone layout on plates though - as Dennis says, they'll cut a groove.

Patstone
01-03-2013, 03:37 PM
I have some of those too, can you explain what you mean please "stone layout on plates", and what do you cut a groove in. I have used them on small tube settings, they work ok, and for me seem to make the finish a bit smoother. I set the stone first, then rub over after I have made sure the stone is secure.



I have a set of bezel closers. I have never used them to close a bezel... I *do* use them as an aid for stone layout on plates though - as Dennis says, they'll cut a groove.

ps_bond
01-03-2013, 03:51 PM
If I'm laying out e.g. 2mm stones on a piece for pave setting, I'll use the 2mm bezel closer to rock lines onto the plate (as opposed to the method of sticking all your stones on with beeswax to get the layout right).

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 05:02 PM
These cups come in two shapes and as you can see they are only meant for round stones:
The shallow variety will only close prongs, or the collets around faceted stones.


Thank you, Dennis. Maybe I will get it one day.

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 05:11 PM
Now I feel like an idiot. Can I come into your studios to take a look? :)

How about to check particular project, it may be easy.
The first setting I'd like to do is to set 6mm round zircon into tube.
What do I need for that? What setting tools and sizes?

The second is flush setting of 3.5 to 3mm round sapphires. What do I need?

medusa
01-03-2013, 06:13 PM
Your taxes are crazy, I heard you even pay tax for having TV. So far it's cheaper to start jewelry making here for sure. And I can hallmark my pieces myself.

Oh yes our taxes are crazy, most things are cheaper for you in the USA and your tool suppliers are also stocking more items than most of ours. One thing I must correct you on, if you don't mind. You can mark your pieces, the term Hallmark refers to an official mark of metal purity given by the Goldsmith's Hall's Assay Offices. The rest of the world has just adopted the term Hallmark, which really means the Mark of the Hall, referring to the Goldsmith's Hall which has been going since 1327. Us London goldsmiths here in the UK refer to The Goldsmith's Hall as the Hall. See;http://www.thegoldsmiths.co.uk/goldsmiths'-hall/
and; http://www.thegoldsmiths.co.uk/welcome-to-the-assay-office/

Cheers, James[/QUOTE]
I said that! sort of!

Ooops...
Wallace, your professional image looks so masculine :)

here in Cornwall we have a saying, "keep digging and you might hit tin".

Goldsmith
01-03-2013, 07:59 PM
Sorry Medusa, I started writing my posting and was interrupted by a phone call, and when I finished writing and posted it, I didn't notice that you had already told the person about Hallmarking. Forgive me I am having a bad day.

James

Wallace
01-03-2013, 10:30 PM
Wallace is a "she" actually, very helpful girl, learnt a lot from her. thank you xx we all try to help


I agree, Wallace is a star :D awwwww, thank you - but you sparkle too xx


Ooops...
Wallace, your professional image looks so masculine :) I have a professional image? lol - there is one on my profile page, does my chin hair look that obvious in it? :P

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 11:45 PM
I have a professional image? lol - there is one on my profile page, does my chin hair look that obvious in it? :P

Shame on me, I have not checked you profile. You are pretty lady with masculine jeweller impression (how about that? :))