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SilverBouillon
25-02-2013, 04:12 PM
This part is confusing to me.
I've read many pricing recommendations for hand made items. It usually tells to include the cost of working hours in price.
It's reasonable for skilled jewelers, but how to apply the same rules for newbies?

There are many operations which can be improved and can be done faster with experience and proper tools that newbie may not knowing about yet. I also consider the certain amount of time as an investment in education. Plus, prototypes take lots of time from the idea to testing the final result. Including work hours in prototype price will give me absolutely unrealistic numbers.

I'm a lousy jeweler, who finished one piece so far :), but I'm much skilled knitter and crocheter. I see that lots of newbies overvalue their amateur work instead of optimizing work and getting more experience first. They calculate their every knit and purl, but they don't calculate how much faster they can do it practicing and learning. Because they do follow recommendations to include their work hours in price and then are getting upset blaming customers for not buying their work.

So, how? How to start entering that pricing territory for the fist time jewelry seller and pretty much newbie ? And what pricing method can be the most effective for newbie?
Thinking toward my sales (hopefully this year) I have not idea what price policy I can adapt for beginning.

I invested about 2500 dollars to start, and I consider that I would spend more for jewelry school, so I don't count to return that money right away, or even return at all. But pretty soon I will need more metal, more materials, and I have no wish to invest "in education" :) more than I already invested. From another side, I don't want to be an amateur who overvalued own amateur work.

How to get balanced pricing for newbie jewelry maker?

caroleallen
25-02-2013, 04:25 PM
i don't think there's an easy answer to this. When I started out silver was cheap to buy and so I was able to make a reasonable profit on my work. It was also a time when craft fairs were less abundant but more profitable. Now with silver being expensive and so much cheap imported jewellery around I really wouldn't want to be starting out. Sorry to be so negative but I don't really have an answer.

SilverBouillon
25-02-2013, 04:57 PM
Sorry to be so negative but I don't really have an answer.

Please don't feel sorry! Being realistic does not mean being negative.
I was planning to start jewelry studio back in to 2006. Then crisis started, we lost a lots of investment, and it was pretty upsetting. However, I gave up not mostly because of that. One day insurance agent came to our house to do some inspections. He told me that he recently quit his job as professional jeweler, and he told me that the industry was very bad. I got scared.
Now I regret that I lost 6 years of my life giving up, and now I just need to think carefully about all aspects not to be scared again.
So, any constructive thoughts are welcome even they may sound like negative.

caroleallen
25-02-2013, 05:02 PM
I honestly think a lot of it's down to getting lucky breaks. I'd have thought Florida would be a good place to sell to tourists, especially in the expensive bits where they have those big boats moored outside.

SilverBouillon
25-02-2013, 05:19 PM
I'd have thought Florida would be a good place to sell to tourists, especially in the expensive bits where they have those big boats moored outside.
Yes, I count on that in the future. We have some expensive boutiques in upscale areas. We also have big fairs, but they are pricey to attend as a seller. I've tried small local fairs in the past when I've been doing beading-not worth it.

However, I'm not there yet. Right now I count on my friends who wait patiently :) for my new work, and I have abandoned etsy store which I plan to recover.
And here is the pricing question. Here. Newbie pricing. I'm going to face this very soon.

So far I think about simple formula as possible: calculate the materials only, amount of silver by gram by stock price and multiply the total material cost on 2.5 or maybe 3. No work hours calculation, no tools amortization, no propane, electricity, etc. cost.

I would be happy with covering my replacement of materials, and a bit more for the studio improvement as I develop to buy kiln, good quality rolling mill, expand more techniques... By the other words, I plan to receive 0 profit for a while putting everything back into jewelry making. I hope at least :)

Patstone
25-02-2013, 07:50 PM
I am in a similar situation to you really as I never know what to charge either, costing it with a minimal hourly wage puts the price up too high for people to be able to afford, at least down this way, I dont have an Etsy shop or any other outlet other than a website and a stall at a local craft fair once a month. I am retired and make jewellery as paying hobby, but Carole has pointed out that it doesnt do the professional jewellers any favours at keeping their price at a realistic living wage. So I am caught in a dilema, charge what I believe people can pay, and sell stuff, or charge what it should be and not sell anything.

caroleallen
25-02-2013, 08:39 PM
I don't personally do Etsy (I think I may have one thing on there actually but I've never had a sale) but some people who work hard on Etsy say they do quite well. I really think online is the way to go and if you're lucky enough to get your work onto a well established online shop then you could do well.

Tabby66
25-02-2013, 09:57 PM
I don't personally do Etsy (I think I may have one thing on there actually but I've never had a sale) but some people who work hard on Etsy say they do quite well. I really think online is the way to go and if you're lucky enough to get your work onto a well established online shop then you could do well.

Carole,
So sorry to hear that your cruise was a bit of a wash-out and blighted by ill-health.........it's so typical after a period of working so intensly :( You said (pre-christmas, I think) that your online sales were really busy, can I ask, was that on NOTHS or your own website? (I do bear in mind, that which ever site you use that you need to build a customer base.....it's just that these days, joining NOTHS is a big outlay and it seems I would need to spend so much time promoting myself as a newcomer, I wouldn't have time to make anything!!)
Any advice and help would be very much appreciate!!
Many thanks
Jill (aka Tabby)

SilverBouillon
25-02-2013, 10:36 PM
So I am caught in a dilema, charge what I believe people can pay, and sell stuff, or charge what it should be and not sell anything.

What "should be" price will be based on? The market price for the similar items, or it should be based on the price of materials and the price of work hour you want to be paid for?
That's the question for me. I would like at least 30 dollars per hour :)

I'm like you guessing now in between prices that I believe people will like and prices I'd like to put to return my efforts and get a bit for development, not even thinking about the profit.
And I'm not sure that both approaches are correct.

What I see is that pricing formula for mass production (including hourly payment) will not work for me as for newbie and slow producer.

SilverBouillon
25-02-2013, 11:02 PM
Here is some advice I'm talking about. (http://www.beyondhandmade.com/pricing-handmade-items-formula/) There are many of them online.


Say it takes 15 minutes for you to make a pair of earrings and you your hourly wage is $20. Your time spent to make these earrings cost $5 ($20 divide by 4). The beads and findings for the earrings cost $0.85.

$0.85 + $5 = $5.85 (Item Cost)

$5.85 x 2.2 = $12.90 (rounded up Wholesale Price)

$12.90 x 2.2 = $28.40 (Retail Price)

Well... Now I can say from the customer perspective. Personally I will never buy earrings for $28.40 if it cost 0.85 in materials and 15 minutes of making. The price expert does not tell where is the target group for sales of those earrings for almost 30 dollars.

Keia
25-02-2013, 11:07 PM
From a personal point of view, I make & sell for the enjoyment of making. Also, being a busy mum it means I can retain an identity other than "just mum".
(It also sets a good example for my children to see that mum works too.)
I don't really sell to make a profit per se. The way I work is I sell rice writing jewellery as my specialisation. The moneys earned from those sales goes to buy silver etc, so that I can indulge in my love for making with silver.
When I sell on my silver, I normally follow "warehouse rules" - 2 and half times what you bought the item in for. The idea behind it is the first half replaces your cost for materials, the second half is the profit, and the quarter is to pay tax. In reality, its first half pays the material costs, second half pays the tax and the quarter is the profit.
Everyone has their own ways of setting prices and to be fair, the seller should really know their customer base =)

Keia
25-02-2013, 11:08 PM
I'm sorry to say this, but anyone new to any kind of crafting can not honestly expect to make an hourly wage - it's hard enough for the proffessionals to make an hourly wage in reality.

SilverBouillon
25-02-2013, 11:14 PM
I'm sorry to say this, but anyone new to any kind of crafting can not honestly expect to make an hourly wage
I totally agree with you.
It seems like there is no pricing formula for newbies.
Most likely I will follow my feeling for how much I can sell my work.

Keia
25-02-2013, 11:28 PM
Experiment with your customer base. Some places people will tell you "you should be charging more for your stuff" other places, people will give you filthy looks as if you'd just tried to rob their most dearest gran and state how expensive you are.
It's a long, hard slog with no quick reward. If you do it for the love of making, then any money at the end is a bonus =)
Go to as many fares, hold as many stalls as you can - you will find your customer base. Think about, what makes you stand out from the crowd? what makes your stuff different from the guy down the road? Why should people buy from you? You need to find your niche and your style, then your customer base will follow.
From there, you can make more informed choices about your prices, and if charging a little extra will work for you =)

Didi
25-02-2013, 11:29 PM
Is agree. It's difficult to price. I think there are some golden rules. Firstly, if jewellery is bespoke it has a value higher than it's nearest mass made equivalent. Secondly, if you don't value your work, don't expect others to. I think that following your feelings is a good place to start. Good luck
Didi

SilverBouillon
26-02-2013, 01:33 AM
It's a long, hard slog with no quick reward.

And ones again I agree. Your post has great advice, not only for newbies.

Where is the formula? (just kidding) :)

caroleallen
26-02-2013, 07:05 AM
Carole,
So sorry to hear that your cruise was a bit of a wash-out and blighted by ill-health.........it's so typical after a period of working so intensly :( You said (pre-christmas, I think) that your online sales were really busy, can I ask, was that on NOTHS or your own website? (I do bear in mind, that which ever site you use that you need to build a customer base.....it's just that these days, joining NOTHS is a big outlay and it seems I would need to spend so much time promoting myself as a newcomer, I wouldn't have time to make anything!!)
Any advice and help would be very much appreciate!!
Many thanks
Jill (aka Tabby)

I'd say that sales from Noths is about 5 times the sales on my site, taken over the year Jill. Most of what I sell on Noths is personalised though and if you can come up with something different to the offerings already on there and Noths like it, they'll do the promotion for you. I closed my shop down while I was away and since reinstating it on Sunday, I've had 17 orders as compared to 3 on my own site. It is a very big investment though and not one to take lightly as a lot of people don't do very well at all.

Keia
26-02-2013, 10:36 AM
And ones again I agree. Your post has great advice, not only for newbies.

Where is the formula? (just kidding) :)

Well, as I said in my previous post everyone tends to find their own "formula" - mine, as I'm still learning, is 2 and half times the material costs. This covers my tax, material costs and a tiny profit for me, but no hourly wage. As I get more experianced and more confident in the quality of my work I should be able to ask a little more =p

Let us know how you get on and what you find works for you =)

ps_bond
26-02-2013, 10:51 AM
One formula I've seen advised is:

(Materials + time * hourly rate) * 1.2 = wholesale price
Wholesale price * 2 = retail price

As James has said before, the wholesale multiplier varies according to who is selling... But for gallery work, that covers up to 50% commission.
If you know you aren't working as efficiently on time as you think you should be, drop the hourly rate accordingly.

SilverBouillon
26-02-2013, 11:21 AM
One formula I've seen advised is:

(Materials + time * hourly rate) * 1.2 = wholesale price
Wholesale price * 2 = retail price

Peter,
This one is good, thank you.
I'm going to adapt this when start working by time. It seems like in the beginning my hourly rate will be just 1 dollar to match with the average market prices. :)

art925
26-02-2013, 11:57 AM
For me it is simple...an employer will pay you an hourly rate when you start a new job. Over time you have the opportunity to review your skill set and abilities. Based upon those discussions you negotiate a new hourly rate. Why not use this same philosiphy with your own business. Every year since 2004 when I registered my business my hourly rate has increased it keeps a formula such as Peter has outlined above easy to continue to work with week in week out, year on year. In an XL spreadsheet you have just 2 variables with every piece you make.
Les

ShinyLauren
26-02-2013, 01:02 PM
I'm hopeless at writing down how long each thing takes me to make. I tend to price things based on how much I really don't want to make another one!

SilverBouillon
26-02-2013, 01:29 PM
For me it is simple...an employer will pay you an hourly rate when you start a new job. Over time you have the opportunity to review your skill set and abilities. Based upon those discussions you negotiate a new hourly rate.

Right now I can not comprehend this philosophy because I'm not an employer with established business. I can not hire myself as employer because I simply can not calculate how much my business worth, how it runs and what return to expect. Plus I can not hire myself to be many in one: designer, producer, trader, advertiser, accountant, etc. :)
Using the formula that Peter wrote gives the ability to know which steps to take toward hourly rate I would like to have in the future. At least it's some reasonable ground to start pricing in the beginning, or to start pricing much or less around that ground.

I tend to undervalue my work like a hobbyist, and I think lots of starters can relate. Overvalue is not good either. Both undervalue and overvalue can destroy the newbie start pretty much.

caroleallen
26-02-2013, 01:43 PM
I'm hopeless at writing down how long each thing takes me to make. I tend to price things based on how much I really don't want to make another one!

Me too Lauren. I think after a while you sort of work out what people will pay for an item.

medusa
26-02-2013, 03:53 PM
For me, when I started I was basically working on cost of materials x 2 because I knew that I couldn't quantify my labour rate as it took me forever to do even simple stuff so a collar would sell for about £80. I quickly realised that this was really stupid of me and that I should actually price my stuff at around the same price others were charging for similar things. So now my collars start at £160 and I make them much quicker, so all's good.

Where I came unstuck was with my seaweed bangles and stuff. No one else was making anything remotely like them so pricing was more tricky. It was only after a friend who does jewellery as a hobby bought one of my pearl ones at a 'mates rate' said that I needed to re-assess my pricing that I upped the prices. Now I don't really push my stuff because I'm too pressed for time with my studies and could never keep up if I was getting loads of work, but when I got a commission for a bespoke seaweed item (euphemistically termed a baby bangle to my casters!) that I pondered and thought hell, I'm charging £450. If he doesn't want it, fine, I have more time to study and if he does, then cool, cause I get the excuse to do a bit of making plus I get a wodge of cash. He was happy with the price and paid the deposit.

So moral is, charge approx what others are charging for similar and if it's something really unique or commission, then charge using the formula above but at an hourly rate commensurate with your skill level if your skill level slows you down.

SilverBouillon
26-02-2013, 04:46 PM
medusa
Your story about unique pieces gave me an idea start testing my target group on simple pieces. I can make a bunch of simple stuff starting today and put at least 5 items on etsy priced reasonably.

caroleallen
26-02-2013, 06:39 PM
I hope that "seaweed item" had all the prickly bits removed, or was that the point (no pun intended)?

medusa
26-02-2013, 07:20 PM
medusa
Your story about unique pieces gave me an idea start testing my target group on simple pieces. I can make a bunch of simple stuff starting today and put at least 5 items on etsy priced reasonably.

I think unique is the way to go if you can actually find something really niche. If no one else makes it then you can justifiably charge whatever.


I hope that "seaweed item" had all the prickly bits removed, or was that the point (no pun intended)?

it's lovely smooth baby thongweed. I was down at Nanven at low water yesterday gathering it. It will be as smooth as can be by the time I've finished processing it for casting :)

SilverBouillon
26-02-2013, 08:47 PM
If no one else makes it then you can justifiably charge whatever.
And exact at this point my "hobbyist" lowers the price! :)
I'm working on it here.

Keia
26-02-2013, 08:58 PM
Gosh, going by the replies I'm way under charging then :/ Thing is, going by todays economy if I did bring up my prices to match Peter's formula (just for example), the exact amount I would sell would be nothing =( Confused at how this works.
It would also feel alittle cheeky as I'm not professionally trained.
Thankyou for the thought provoking thread.

SilverBouillon
26-02-2013, 09:37 PM
Gosh, going by the replies I'm way under charging then :/ Thing is, going by todays economy if I did bring up my prices to match Peter's formula (just for example), the exact amount I would sell would be nothing =( Confused at how this works.
It would also feel alittle cheeky as I'm not professionally trained.
Thankyou for the thought provoking thread.


I saw you are selling lovely sterling silver ring for 7.50 pounds on your site.
Go on etsy, type "sterling silver ring", click handmade and try to find the similar ring for $11 and change! Wow!
That's the ebay price for unwanted things. Seriously.

Ones I tried to give away the tile on craigslist. For free.
Never, ever again anything for free! I was flooded with requests, but no one came, just promised. I wasted my time answering tons of questions, like do you know what year is that tile? Do you know if it will be enough for my kitchen? The tile was worth more than 100 dollars, but I thought I want to get rid of it fast and don't want to deal with sales. Huge mistake!
People acted like they are going to do me a big favor coming in. I've never had that situation selling things on craigslist!

You are giving away your silver ring almost for free in my opinion.

Keia
26-02-2013, 09:48 PM
I saw you are selling lovely sterling silver ring for 7.50 pounds on your site.
Go on etsy, type "sterling silver ring", click handmade and try to find the similar ring for $11 and change! Wow!
That's the ebay price for unwanted things. Seriously.

Is that the Thorns ring? The first two sterling rings on the site weren't handmade =) I bought those in from a warehouse a long time before I started silverwork - those two are just run off the mill, mass produced items. I'm getting rid of all non handcrafted, and not sterling silver items from the site - hense the extra low price =D My Ankh necklace (the £24.99 one) should be atleast double that if I were to use Peter's formula. I don't have the confidence to know that someone would pay that much - I could probably bet my life I would never sell it for that much. Still, it's given me alot to think about though =)

Keia
26-02-2013, 09:57 PM
Ones I tried to give away the tile on craigslist. For free.
Never, ever again anything for free! I was flooded with requests, but no one came, just promised. I wasted my time answering tons of questions, like do you know what year is that tile? Do you know if it will be enough for my kitchen? The tile was worth more than 100 dollars, but I thought I want to get rid of it fast and don't want to deal with sales. Huge mistake!
People acted like they are going to do me a big favor coming in. I've never had that situation selling things on craigslist!

You are giving away your silver ring almost for free in my opinion.

Haha! I hate people like that - they're tiles, for free! What more do they want?? They want you to go to their house and measure their kitchen for them too? =D
This is where I get confused - people do act like they're doing you a favour when you give something away, almost grudgingly taking away something they got for free. Now, offer the same person a £150 silver necklace and they say "ohhh, bargain - I'll take two!!!" I don't get it :/

SilverBouillon
26-02-2013, 10:03 PM
Keia,
ok, your cross is 45mm. Check this out. Just an example :)

http://www.etsy.com/listing/122744712/high-quality-sideways-sterling-silver?

Keia
26-02-2013, 10:06 PM
Keia,
ok, your cross is 45mm. Check this out. Just an example :)

http://www.etsy.com/listing/122744712/high-quality-sideways-sterling-silver?

So, I'm not actually that far off with the pricing then? What's the silver exchange differance though in America compared the the UK? Might that be an extra factor to consider?

Edit - that cross is tiny in comparison, so my price should be double then! =O

SilverBouillon
26-02-2013, 10:08 PM
They want you to go to their house and measure their kitchen for them too? =D
This is where I get confused - people do act like they're doing you a favour when you give something away, almost grudgingly taking away something they got for free. Now, offer the same person a £150 silver necklace and they say "ohhh, bargain - I'll take two!!!" I don't get it :/

No kidding, I put all the size and quantity in my ad with plenty and the guy gave me the size of his kitchen and asked it will be enough. Because if it will not be enough, he is not coming!

I think we both, you and me, should do some pricing home work, should not we? :)

Keia
26-02-2013, 10:10 PM
Yep, we're really needing to sort this because right now I feel like a dog chasing it's own tail ><

SilverBouillon
26-02-2013, 10:11 PM
What's the silver exchange differance though in America compared the the UK?

Yours is hand made in Europe. It's so European. :) And it's hallmarked by certified establishment... (I start promoting you :) )

Keia
26-02-2013, 10:22 PM
Yours is hand made in Europe. It's so European. :) And it's hallmarked by certified establishment... (I start promoting you :) )

I've got alot of work to do on the website haven't I =p (and I'm not just talking about the awful photographs!)

SilverBouillon
26-02-2013, 10:38 PM
(and I'm not just talking about the awful photographs!)

I thought that your cross is small before I read it's 45mm. That picture somehow makes it looking tiny in my opinion.

Keia
26-02-2013, 10:54 PM
I thought that your cross is small before I read it's 45mm. That picture somehow makes it looking tiny in my opinion.

Aye, the website server is not very good. You have to click on the photo when you're in the description to bring up the bigger photo with extra pictures. I really need a new server to be honest. The other website skins they offer that allow bigger photos by default are far too messy looking :/ Thankyou for this convo by the way, I've really enjoyed speaking with you and you've given me so much to think about =)

medusa
27-02-2013, 01:26 PM
Gosh, going by the replies I'm way under charging then :/ Thing is, going by todays economy if I did bring up my prices to match Peter's formula (just for example), the exact amount I would sell would be nothing =( Confused at how this works.
It would also feel alittle cheeky as I'm not professionally trained.
Thankyou for the thought provoking thread.

the way I see it is if you make a silver pendant with a decent stone set in it and a professional jeweller is selling something similar for say £100, then that is roughly what you should charge. Even if it means that it's taken you 20 hours to make and the pro only 3 hours. The pro makes more profit because they work faster.

If you undercharge, say just the cost of materials and tenner on top for labour no matter how many hours because you don't think you should charge more as an amateur, then not only are you working for nothing, but you aren't actually doing the pro jewellers a favour either.

ShinyLauren
27-02-2013, 06:17 PM
^^^^^^
What Liz said!

I take far longer than proper professional jewellers to make stuff, as I only do jewellery part time and like to faff about for ages with emery paper and files getting things as perfect as I can so spend way too long on each piece. However, I'd like jewellery to be my full time business in the future and am trying to start pricing as such. I couldn't use the formula for hourly rate, as everything takes me so much longer to do than it should, but I am getting faster. So yes, I compare things I make to professional jewellers that I aspire to and try to price accordingly.

I may not sell as much as I would if I priced lower, but I feel like when I do sell something that it's worth it! Also, because I only do jewellery part time, there's a limit on how many pieces I can produce.

SilverBouillon
27-02-2013, 06:54 PM
Today I received Anastasia Young's book The Workbench Guide where she covers a bit about pricing.
The one thing I found interesting is to charge enough to be able to make two more of the same piece.

Keia
27-02-2013, 07:42 PM
Medusa - I don't really sell any of my silver. I get about one silver sale a month if that, so it's not like I'm taking business away from the pro's because I never get the sales, else I would tend to agree with that sentiment ;)

ps_bond
27-02-2013, 09:27 PM
It's not a question of taking it away from the pros, the worry is more devaluing the market. The former is healthy competition :)

Keia
27-02-2013, 10:09 PM
Yeah I don't want to do that. It hadn't even crossed my mind to be honest. I'll sort out my prices soon as ;)

solitarysmagick
27-02-2013, 10:34 PM
I tend to use a few different methods when pricing. I will work out a price based on materials x 2 or 3 depending on what it is (hard to find beads for example I would charge a bit more for) plus an hourly wage and see what comes out, but then also go by how much I'd be willing to pay for the item, and ask friends and family to get a bit of feedback. I also try to include postage and packing costs in the final price as free postage is always a good selling point.

I started making tree of life pendants before Xmas and put them up at £25 each and sold a fair number. A lot of people said I should charge more so I tried a few at £30 and had hardly any sales, so sometimes its a case of pricing a little lower than average and selling pieces, or charge more and sell less. I also tend to look at similar items on sites like etsy to get an idea of what other people charge and try to fit my pricing somewhere in the middle!

ps_bond
28-02-2013, 09:23 AM
OK, here's a worked example -

I'm currently part-way through making a forged bangle. There's £24 of silver in it, it'll probably have taken me 2 hours by the time it is fully polished (although the first bit of forming the bangle was slower than it should have been) and it'll need hallmarking and a box (call it £4 in total - I'll batch up the hallmarking).

So materials of £28 total; I'm including electricity & consumables in the hourly rate.
At minimum wage, that is £12.40 (rounded) in labour costs.

Using the formula I mentioned, this gives a wholesale price of about £49. Which then means a retail price of near enough £100.

At £10/hour, this rises to £57.60 wholesale, £115 retail.
£20/hour: £81.60 wholesale, £163 retail.

A *mass produced* bangle of a similar weight retails for around £100 - this is handmade (and not as simple as the one I found while googling). It is your (collective!) responsibility to ensure that customers understand what they're getting, that it does not compare to the mass produced stuff. If you don't, you create an expectation that you're prepared to work for nothing, and your work is valued accordingly.

This - as I keep banging on - is NOT a standard economic model, this is a luxury goods market. DO NOT drop your prices to increase sales.

Have a look at this book - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Setting-Successful-Jewellery-Business-Guides/dp/1408130440 - for some more info (and a lot of the same rant I'm afraid!)

Oh, and a quote from the recent Assay Office London newsletter - "silver is the new 9k"

bilythepink
28-02-2013, 09:46 AM
Thank you Peter for the 'rant' and, while I have to say it is really hard as a 'newbie' to have the confidence to sell at a similar price to the pro's, I agree 100% with your comments. I recently sold a pair of earrings to a lady who turned out to be a 'promoter of the arts' and, although she was delighted with her bargain purchase, she told me to double my prices and to stop insulting my fellow jewellers - talk about a backhanded compliment. Pity she didn't feel obligated to pay me double though :)

caroleallen
28-02-2013, 11:18 AM
What I've found over the years is ways to make my jewellery more quickly. Some may say my jewellery is very commercial and I'd have to agree but I make a living from it. I'd love to be making beautiful labour intensive one-off pieces all the time but it wouldn't pay the mortgage. When I do get commissioned to make a one-off piece, I charge accordingly.

SilverBouillon
28-02-2013, 11:58 AM
This - as I keep banging on - is NOT a standard economic model, this is a luxury goods market. DO NOT drop your prices to increase sales.
Luxury means perfection in my vocabulary (perhaps I'm wrong). That model is not for newbie. So, I ended up with the importance of entering market when ready, and I'm not ready.

Etsy, however, gives an advice for successful selling there to enter when you have something to sell, no matter what. I disagree.

I found one seller on etsy yesterday who makes simple things, but they are priced well, and she makes 3-4 sales per day! On etsy, where sales are pretty slow in average. This is something I'm trying to understand: how? There are plenty of sellers on the same site with better work in my opinion, with the same etsy years (since 2006), but they don't do so much sales. Where is the catch?
I check her every word, every picture :)

I can sell anything I successfully, except my own work. When it comes to my creations I lower the price because I'm intimidated by others and have low self-esteem. My background in business tells me that it's a failure right here, the weakest link. I also believe that customers can "smell" low self-esteem. :)

Your advice helps to put all things together.

Keia
28-02-2013, 12:17 PM
I've just spent the morning changing my prices. Everything that is sterling silver and handmade by me now accounts for an £8 per hour wage. Some things took me an hour, some 2, or two & half etc. But, the butterfly armcuff took me the best part of two weeks to make, so I only really accounted for around 5 hours work within the price of that keep it fair. The new prices seem to be ok to me - might look still on the low side to some though. I'm also trying to get rid of alot of junk from the site, as I'm wanting to take it in a new direction of having zero component work there. The prices should look more balanced when it's sorted =)

In future, I'll definatly be using Peter's formula to price up everything that's made from now on. Everything that's been said has absolutley rung true, especially where perceived value is concerned.

Thankyou again for this great thread & great advice within it =)

SilverBouillon
28-02-2013, 12:40 PM
Keia
You go girl! :)

It also may be beneficial not to change the prices alone, but something else, so the customers will have the feeling of total improvement. Pictures, descriptions, promotions, make price room for holiday sales, free shipping on few items, etc.

Keia
28-02-2013, 12:52 PM
Yep definatly. I've alot of work still to do on the website, but this has been a good starting point I think =)

ps_bond
28-02-2013, 01:00 PM
Luxury means perfection in my vocabulary (perhaps I'm wrong). That model is not for newbie.

No. Luxury goods are one that are not needed for day-to-day living. So jewellery, yachts, expensive wines, etc...

I agree it *should* be as perfect as possible, but then you're into what is sometimes called "last scratch" syndrome - as your skill level improves, your observation of imperfections changes. So a scratch you thought was OK a year before is no longer so, and you're spotting even finer scratches that you strive to remove. There's also the persian rug tale about perfection to bear in mind...!

If you become known for selling cheap jewellery, trying to sell more expensive jewellery will be an uphill struggle. I'm not suggesting hiking prices or being unrealistic, but don't sell yourself - and others - short. If it took longer than you wanted, take a slight hit on the time (*), but understand that you are giving your time away. Price your time according to your abilities.

I'd far rather put the work into selling a single £200 piece than 10 £20 pieces.


* Added - put it down to training and justify it that way if you need to.

SilverBouillon
28-02-2013, 01:19 PM
I'd far rather put the work into selling a single £200 piece than 10 £20 pieces.

This! I got it, thanks! I used to work on opposite model in sales: lower a price a bit and you get more profit on volume sales, and it was beneficial for trading.
I have to drop this mentality ones and for all selling handmade.



* Added - put it down to training and justify it that way if you need to.
Yep, I just have a break for one more week since I'm raising my PayPal now to purchase everything I discovered is needed to move forward: right patina, burs, good pickling, etc. You know, as you go, you learn what you exactly need. I bought lots of things I don't use, and did not buy what I need right now and ended up with unfinished pieces :)

Did not waste time anyway getting sooooo much from this forum, and I'm really thankful for it. Less and less missing links.

Keia
28-02-2013, 01:36 PM
This! I got it, thanks! I used to work on opposite model in sales: lower a price a bit and you get more profit on volume sales, and it was beneficial for trading.
I have to drop this mentality ones and for all selling handmade.



Yep, I just have a break for one more week since I'm raising my PayPal now to purchase everything I discovered is needed to move forward: right patina, burs, good pickling, etc. You know, as you go, you learn what you exactly need. I bought lots of things I don't use, and did not buy what I need right now and ended up with unfinished pieces :)

Did not waste time anyway getting sooooo much from this forum, and I'm really thankful for it. Less and less missing links.

Ditto to all of this. It's totally changed my way of thinking just within the two days or so this thread was started. bottom line, if you're putting your heart, soul & time into a peice, damn right you should get paid properly for it.

ps_bond
28-02-2013, 01:37 PM
This! I got it, thanks! I used to work on opposite model in sales: lower a price a bit and you get more profit on volume sales, and it was beneficial for trading.
I have to drop this mentality ones and for all selling handmade.

Works for some areas, economically luxury goods don't fit that. Pile 'em high & sell 'em cheap is not what we should be doing; that market is sewn up by mass produced items with economies of scale we cannot compete with.

ps_bond
28-02-2013, 01:39 PM
if you're putting your heart, soul & time into a peice, damn right you should get paid properly for it.

And have the confidence to stick to your guns on it. If someone complains about a piece being too expensive, *don't* offer to discount it!!! Perhaps show them something lower priced - if there's anything that fits the bill.

(It should be added - I do not haggle. If that's the advertised price, that's it - whether I'm buying or selling)

Keia
28-02-2013, 01:39 PM
Lol, Peter you should go into politics - I find myself nodding away in agreement with everything you're saying on this subject.

ps_bond
28-02-2013, 01:44 PM
Politics? Pah. I'd rather do something useful...

All of what I've harped on about doesn't diminish the fact that it can be difficult - and downright disheartening at times. I don't regard myself as good at sales, but get me started talking about a piece and the enthusiasm seems infectious. I've even done that for other jewellers at the recent exhibition where it's been a piece I've discussed with them and picked up their enthusiasm.

medusa
28-02-2013, 01:53 PM
Price your time according to your abilities.


I think this needs to be the jeweller's motto whether pro or amateur.

Because at the moment I can only snatch the odd afternoon in my workshop, the ideal order for me is one of the easy to make (well they are now after so much practice!) collars which also give me a fair profit even with one off hallmarking. In two years time though, I aim to make it more commercial and produce more ready made and fewer made to order items and work on a proper part-time (as in half the working week) basis. I'm hoping that this will mean that profit increases as my ability grows. At the moment my self-promotion is scaled right back because of study, so most orders are via the fluke of being on the first page of the relevant google search.

I swear, if I had the capital, I could probably get a proper full time business out of it!

SilverBouillon
28-02-2013, 03:01 PM
Politics? Pah. I'd rather do something useful...

Religion? I believe you :)

ShinyLauren
28-02-2013, 08:12 PM
I think this needs to be the jeweller's motto whether pro or amateur.

Because at the moment I can only snatch the odd afternoon in my workshop, the ideal order for me is one of the easy to make (well they are now after so much practice!) collars which also give me a fair profit even with one off hallmarking. In two years time though, I aim to make it more commercial and produce more ready made and fewer made to order items and work on a proper part-time (as in half the working week) basis. I'm hoping that this will mean that profit increases as my ability grows. At the moment my self-promotion is scaled right back because of study, so most orders are via the fluke of being on the first page of the relevant google search.

I swear, if I had the capital, I could probably get a proper full time business out of it!

I feel EXACTLY like this. I can only be in my workshop (spare room!) Fridays to Sundays, as I work for a law firm Mondays to Thursdays. This leaves me with exactly zero time off and I can only just keep up with the orders that I have. I'm also not doing any kind of promotion or advertising and just get random orders through the website.

But how will I ever know if I can do it as a full time business, as I need to keep my regular job to pay my (alarmingly expensive London) rent? And until I quit my job I won't have the time to make enough things to advertise/sell through third party websites so won't know if I can make enough money. Arrrgghhhhh!!!!

Sorry for the whinge. Just feel very stuck at the moment, doing a job I hate and makes me want to cry on a daily basis in the folorn hope that one day I can find a way to make enough money from the jewellery to at least just work proper part time somewhere nice. Like a cake shop. A cake shop would be lovely...

caroleallen
28-02-2013, 08:57 PM
Someone with your talent should be able to make a success of it Lauren but I know how difficult it is to make a living out of jewellery making. It wasn't until I gave up my part time job that things really started to take off for me. That was about 6 years ago and things are a lot harder now.

Wallace
28-02-2013, 09:44 PM
It feels like one is between a rock and a hard place - for me, I although I don't get paid a wage, how many self representing artists do? I consider the need to look at the on-costs, wear and tear on the tools, clothing, environment, utitilty bills, new tools, time, web work, networking, research and creativity for a piece, assay costs, postage, petrol (gas)... oh the list could be endless.

I have, after several years, found that customers are coming back for more things, and Etsy has been a good opportunity for me as I do have a day job. (Yeah, it helps offset my tool and stone purchasing habit - must go to rehab, but think that may cost more than the tools and stones!) lol

solitarysmagick
28-02-2013, 10:30 PM
I feel EXACTLY like this. I can only be in my workshop (spare room!) Fridays to Sundays, as I work for a law firm Mondays to Thursdays. This leaves me with exactly zero time off and I can only just keep up with the orders that I have. I'm also not doing any kind of promotion or advertising and just get random orders through the website.

But how will I ever know if I can do it as a full time business, as I need to keep my regular job to pay my (alarmingly expensive London) rent? And until I quit my job I won't have the time to make enough things to advertise/sell through third party websites so won't know if I can make enough money. Arrrgghhhhh!!!!

Sorry for the whinge. Just feel very stuck at the moment, doing a job I hate and makes me want to cry on a daily basis in the folorn hope that one day I can find a way to make enough money from the jewellery to at least just work proper part time somewhere nice. Like a cake shop. A cake shop would be lovely...

Know the feeling :) I work full time at the moment so can only do jewellery in the evenings and Sundays (we have my finances son on Saturdays). I have just taken a mini-plunge and asked to go part time so that I can spend more time on my jewellery and eventually the goal is to make it a full time business. It's a scary thought though when you know you now 'HAVE' to make and sell things to get by as opposed to just doing it as a hobby.

medusa
01-03-2013, 10:47 AM
I feel EXACTLY like this. I can only be in my workshop (spare room!) Fridays to Sundays, as I work for a law firm Mondays to Thursdays. This leaves me with exactly zero time off and I can only just keep up with the orders that I have. I'm also not doing any kind of promotion or advertising and just get random orders through the website.

But how will I ever know if I can do it as a full time business, as I need to keep my regular job to pay my (alarmingly expensive London) rent? And until I quit my job I won't have the time to make enough things to advertise/sell through third party websites so won't know if I can make enough money. Arrrgghhhhh!!!!

Sorry for the whinge. Just feel very stuck at the moment, doing a job I hate and makes me want to cry on a daily basis in the folorn hope that one day I can find a way to make enough money from the jewellery to at least just work proper part time somewhere nice. Like a cake shop. A cake shop would be lovely...

I'm actually shocked to find you don't do this on a more full time basis, like Carole I would have thought that your work would sell well. But again as Carole says, times are hard. I'm only able to think of pushing it more in 2015 because I know when I finish my PhD there will be very little work for me, I hope to get a part time academic post, but if I don't then it's either signing on (shudder) or going self employed. The thought of once again hitting the drudge of unemployment, especially down here fills me with horror. I've been there, done that and nearly lost my sanity because of it. I'm also lucky that I don't have a huge mortgage or major overheads and having lived in what is considered 'official poverty' for the last 15 years, I'm not too fussed about the kind of stuff most people consider to be part of regular life such as socialising in pubs (I think I went to the pub last time about a year ago) cinema visits (the last film I went to see was the new 2nd harry potter film with the kids!) or eating out.

The point of this whinge is that for me, going at it more seriously is less risky than for many as I have very little to lose. I feel pretty confident that I could really push what I'm doing, especially if I can get my skills improved.

snow_imp
01-03-2013, 12:58 PM
I'll add my tuppence worth - not sure how useful it will be but there you go.

I have two rates for my labour charge. If I'm making something I've made a number of times before and is going to be relatively quick to make, I use my "standard" rate of pay. If I am playing around and trying something new, I use my "learning" rate which is half my "standard" rate - that way if it takes twice as many hours to be "right" then the cost isn't too bad. There have been a few things I've made where I've made so many changes that even on the "learning" rate I've felt that the resulting price is much too high - then I've taken a hit on the "hours" used to make it to produce what I consider a reasonable price.

So far no arguments on prices when selling face to face. Never sold anything online so far - had a couple of queries to which I've responded and then heard nothing. I have an Etsy shop set up now and my own site is linked to it but that is a very recent situation.

When I'm feeling confident I'll ask people to have a look at my Etsy shop and give feedback. :o

SilverBouillon
01-03-2013, 06:29 PM
I'll add my tuppence worth - not sure how useful it will be but there you go.
I have two rates for my labour charge. If I'm making something I've made a number of times before and is going to be relatively quick to make, I use my "standard" rate of pay. If I am playing around and trying something new, I use my "learning" rate which is half my "standard" rate - that way if it takes twice as many hours to be "right" then the cost isn't too bad.

That's interesting perspective, thanks. I will keep it in mind later on if I can come with some "collection" and it will sell (I hope). Designing prototype - one rate, making a few similar- another.

Anna Wales
01-03-2013, 08:38 PM
I have 2 types of work. I have a number of patterns that I know are good sellers and I have these cast and so there is only assaying and finishing to be done on them, giving a good profit margin. As Carole said maybe commercial but bills need to be paid, okay not artistically satisfying to some people but I am still as pleased to sell something taken from old patterns now as I was back in the dark ages.

I also make other pieces that do take a lot longer and the profit margin is not as high, mainly because of the metal prices having gone through the roof.

I agree with you Peter that generally prices should not be negotiated but if somebody is buying a couple of items or making up a set then I am prepared to move slightly and I've found that this brings repeated custom. I have no problem with 10 £20 sales as opposed to a £200 sale, as long as it keeps me making I don't mind how it comes in.

I think the most important part of selling at events or online is to explain and show customers what's involved in the making of a piece, make them appreciate the work and skill involved in what you make.

ps_bond
02-03-2013, 06:56 AM
I have no problem with 10 £20 sales as opposed to a £200 sale, as long as it keeps me making I don't mind how it comes in.


Here's why I do not believe any jeweller should be selling handmade items at £20:

Working backwards through the formula I quoted -
£20 retail
£10 wholesale
£8.33 materials & labour.

At £20/hour, you can spend a maximum of 25 minutes on it (but no materials!)
£10/hour pushes that to 50 minutes.

At minimum wage, you could spend a whole hour on it AND have £2 for materials (including packaging, promotion and everything else).
Minimum wage is not appropriate for skilled work.

Then there's the issue that my personal preference is to make items which have far more of my abilities focussed on them. I've got to have buy-in on making a piece.

caroleallen
02-03-2013, 07:10 AM
I have a couple of designs that I turn out for £12 at shows. They're made from aluminium, so cost pennies, and I can make 10 in an hour. They sell like hot cakes.

At over £100 for an hour's work, I don't think that's a bad return.

ps_bond
02-03-2013, 07:23 AM
OK, but how much time do you have to spend at the show to sell 10?

Patstone
02-03-2013, 08:49 AM
Your formula Peter is a good one if you are quick at making stuff. After a couple of years of a hobby jeweller, I am unable to make anything in 25 minutes except perhaps a plain ring. For us that are in the stage that I am, retired etc, there is no hurry to finish, especially as getting paid for it is a bonus, but you guys that do it for a living I know it must be tough. If I charged even minimum rates per hour, it would take me a day to make a ring with a cab set in a bezel setting, so if you said 7 hours at just for instance the minimum wage (for the sake of argument I will say £8, as I am not sure what it is now) that would make the labour on the ring to be £56, then just say the stone was another £5, and the silver on top was another £5 and of course the gas, solder etc another £1. That makes a total of £67, then to incorporate travel costs or table costs for a show, we normally pay £20 a table for the day, just to cover costs would make £97, and my opinion is that things wouldnt sell. Like it or not, you can only sell things if people are prepared to spend the money. If it is for a keepsake or for someone special, yes people will pay a bit more for it. I understand that to make a living at it you have to charge more, but do people pay £180 ish for a ring, for themselves. Have a look at my website and see the prices I charge, things havent sold from my website but they sell at craft fairs. www.iscasilver.co.uk have a look and see the prices, should they be put up, we just add the cost of the material and judge how much to add on, judging how much we would pay for it if we were to be buying it.

ShinyLauren
02-03-2013, 09:52 AM
Someone with your talent should be able to make a success of it Lauren but I know how difficult it is to make a living out of jewellery making. It wasn't until I gave up my part time job that things really started to take off for me. That was about 6 years ago and things are a lot harder now.


I'm actually shocked to find you don't do this on a more full time basis, like Carole I would have thought that your work would sell well.

Thanks guys, that's really sweet of you. I'm hoping that once people know I exist I might sell more stuff!

Feeling a bit better about things today, just been having a really bad week at work. In any other circumstances, I would just quit and look for something three days a week, but the boy and I are trying to save for a deposit to buy a house so we can stop paying crazy London rent (a mortgage would be cheaper monthly!) So, yeah, can't really be earning less money right now.

I'll get there eventually!

SilverBouillon
02-03-2013, 11:57 AM
Yesterday I realized the most intimidating thing for me- jewelry TV sales.
2.5 cm wide ss woven bracelet, big multiplied links for 63 dollars. Made in Turkey. I can not compete with Turkey, or with China. I better ignore those shows. At least for now.

ps_bond
02-03-2013, 12:48 PM
Read between the lines on these shows - they're very good marketing, but... "Diamonique" - cubic zirconia. 18 carat gold (plating over silver). Platineve - sounds a bit like platinum, but it's just another plating. Clever stuff, very well hyped, but as with everything - at the end of the day, if it sounds too good to be true it probably is.

SilverBouillon
02-03-2013, 01:31 PM
Read between the lines on these shows - they're very good marketing, but... "Diamonique" - cubic zirconia. 18 carat gold (plating over silver). Platineve - sounds a bit like platinum, but it's just another plating. Clever stuff, very well hyped, but as with everything - at the end of the day, if it sounds too good to be true it probably is.

Peter, I know! But it's still intimidating. Perhaps, the most amazing is how they push this stuff, and how it goes. Video is powerful thing.
Oh! I can include video presentations in future site. :)

caroleallen
02-03-2013, 06:32 PM
OK, but how much time do you have to spend at the show to sell 10?

Well usually at a show I sell 20-30 of my aluminium things which usually covers the cost of the stand and considering they've cost me next to nothing to produce is fine by me, particularly as I'm there anyway. Obviously I make more by selling my more expensive stuff but I'm just happy to be selling anything.

Anna Wales
02-03-2013, 08:14 PM
I am confident with the range and prices of work that I am selling. Having been to an event today, sales covered a good range of pieces from 2 of the £20 items in question to the lovespoon entered in the February competition.

We'll have to agree to disagree Peter but thank you for your thoughts anyway.

Claire
17-03-2013, 11:01 PM
Thanks guys, that's really sweet of you. I'm hoping that once people know I exist I might sell more stuff!

Feeling a bit better about things today, just been having a really bad week at work. In any other circumstances, I would just quit and look for something three days a week, but the boy and I are trying to save for a deposit to buy a house so we can stop paying crazy London rent (a mortgage would be cheaper monthly!) So, yeah, can't really be earning less money right now.

I'll get there eventually!

Have just dropped in to the forum tonight after a big absence and have found this discussion really interesting. Lauren, like Carole and Medusa I was really surprised that you're not doing this full time but totally get why. (Your stuff is lovely by the way) There's always a market out there for things that are different, I believe, with the right marketing, but that takes time too - that old enemy - when you have to keep trying to bring the cash in to live! I've been designing and making for years, on off. More off than on because of the need for the mortgage paying job! I totally agree with Peter's thinking (and get why he rants - I don't get any pleasure in selling something I've spent hours designing and making for a song - I feel resentful, so what's the point?). I think Carole, you sound like you've got a good balance. We want to do what we love ultimately, right? Compromises, acceptable ones, are a fact of life. Some good, bread and butter, quickly produced cheaper items alongside higher end stuff and special commissions is where I'd like to go. And there will always be people who bawk at your prices - even when you go in cheap (and some of them will be friends). They're not our target. I was a buyer long before I was a maker. I never wanted the mass produced, what-everyone-else-had stuff. And there's plenty more people out there like me, I'm sure - it's getting to them that's the challenge, and that can take as much time as designing and making initially! I'm kind of stuck in the same place at moment Lauren, and am currently giving serious thought (yikes) to taking the plunge in the full time job and asking to go four days! I can't really afford to drop my salary so it's about freeing up time to make - and begin to shift that balance. I'm currently trying to coach myself into not over thinking it and just doing it! Watch this space... :-)

Patstone
25-05-2013, 08:15 AM
Went back to this again as I thought about re-pricing our jewellery to a price in line with your calculations just to see how much we are undercharging. A simple pair of earrings took say 1 hour to make, materials cost was £5, Overheads, i.e craft fair table (which is the only place we are selling at the moment) and cost of card machine rental comes to around £2 a day -- so total costing labour at £6 an hour comes to £13 = total to customer is £30ish. If my calculations are correct, that seems a lot for a pair of earrings especially as there are no stones etc in it. Further to that the profit you make is only £2.50 and the gallery gets a whopping £15. My calculations must be wrong.
I wouldnt pay £30 for a pair of earrings, so how can I expect others to, even if they are designer and unique. Maybe in a shop they would sell them at that price because of their overheads but not at a craft fair unless it was a big prestigeous one.



One formula I've seen advised is:

(Materials + time * hourly rate) * 1.2 = wholesale price
Wholesale price * 2 = retail price

As James has said before, the wholesale multiplier varies according to who is selling... But for gallery work, that covers up to 50% commission.
If you know you aren't working as efficiently on time as you think you should be, drop the hourly rate accordingly.

ps_bond
25-05-2013, 09:11 AM
What sort of earrings would you get on the high street for that price? And they won't be handmade, they'll be mass-cast rubbish that's not a patch on yours.

The price you charge at a fair should be the same as a gallery would charge - otherwise you're undercutting the gallery and jeapordising your relationship with them.

The biggest problem I've seen with the craft fairs is when you've got imported rubbish on adjacent tables, it's a much harder sell when you have to convince customers that you aren't in competition with that. Saw that particularly in the craft tents at Badminton this year - but the genuinely hand-made stuff was head & shoulders above the rest of it.

BTW - on adding stones to items... A £3 stone + shipping + VAT + setting charge should be adding around £15 to the retail price.

caroleallen
25-05-2013, 10:56 AM
I agree with Peter. Apart from my cheap aluminium rings and earrings (which literally take seconds to make and the materials cost peanuts) I never charge less than £30 for a pair of silver earrings at a craft fair. More complex earrings are more expensive. Where I slightly disagree is that I do charge less at a craft fair than online, where I match gallery prices. At shows people do expect to pay a little less I think.

Patstone
25-05-2013, 12:45 PM
Have a look at our website, we are re-doing the pictures and the prices are what we charge at the craft shows. We havent got any of our jewellery in any galleries, there are only a couple in Exeter, but we are going to get a bit more active soon, at the moment we are selling well at the craft fair, we make a couple of hundred between us every month, and the website is still being built.

www.iscasilver.co.uk

medusa
25-05-2013, 01:57 PM
I just had a quick look and I think you are undercharging. Your designs are, I think, classic and they look well made so they should be priced as artisan made not sweatshop products. I suspect you just need to have a bit more faith in your stuff. It's good.

Patstone
25-05-2013, 02:19 PM
I just had a quick look and I think you are undercharging. Your designs are, I think, classic and they look well made so they should be priced as artisan made not sweatshop products. I suspect you just need to have a bit more faith in your stuff. It's good.

Thank you, trouble is that if I can't sell stuff I won't be able to carry on making as I am retired, even now I have had people remark that the items are too pricey. Some of the early stuff on the website was when we were still learning the basics and isn't very well finished, but most of it has sold now, but its there really to show what we can do.

Truffle & Podge
25-05-2013, 02:27 PM
I agree with Medusa, Pat! I did think that when we were discussing naming the products.
We have a big craft fair a couple of times a year here at Sudeley Castle & Cheltenham Racecourse. Sudeley has become a bit of an annual outing with my parents and i was commenting this year to my dad about how a lot of the items were mass produced esp the jewelry but beautifully presented and the people were flocking round them. The mass produced earrings were selling for at least £30. The sellers have this trick of only displaying one pair of a design and keeping more stock under the counter, they sell the counter pair (again beautifully presented and packaged) and then after a suitable period of time whip out another pair from the crunchy plastic they bought them in and make them look great with packaging that really costs pence. Customers lap it up as the stall looks classy.
I think if you give serious thought to presentation and an obvious display that your product is handmade it makes the world of difference. I saw a few stalls that offered what was obviously (to a creative minded person) handmade items at a fraction of the price these mass produced stalls were charging and customers just passed them by as the seller had not given the marketing or presentation much thought, so customers assumed that the cheaper better quality items were the tat and "importing Irene" across the way was coining it in.
Have also seen places like M&S charging quite a whack for jewelry and the customers seem happy to pay it
X

pearlescence
25-05-2013, 02:29 PM
Pricing is probably the hardest part of a jewellery business. I think my prices are just about right (of course I would think that!) but I see lots of cheaper pearls on ebay etc, both loose and finished jewellery, and also massively more expensive with either big brand names like Mikimoto or Europearl, where I know the pearls are no better in quality than mine but the price might be ten times mine or more.
same goes for 'designer' stuff. Some designer stuff is jaw droppingly priced.
It's a balance between valuing yourself and your work and actually pricing to sell.
You can value yourself super high and not sell anything or too cheap and sell it all , lots of turnover but no profit.

Patstone
25-05-2013, 02:44 PM
I agree with you totally but the proof comes with the selling. There is one stand in the craft show that buys all the components and just puts them together, one in every colour, his stand looks very colourful but its gold plated tat. We have mid grey satin tablecloth with biggish flat stones in the middle to show off special items, the rest is on black stands and some items like rings are just loose on the table and the stand looks classy. We have spotlights rigged up too which shows off the things better. We have one tomorrow, I will try and get a photo of the stand to see how we can improve it, any ideas would be welcome.

pearlescence
25-05-2013, 02:53 PM
How are fairs, fayres, etc going so far this year? I've booked into only a couple and am not excited at all (in fact I had booked one for two weeks ago and forgot about it completely until yesterday....(!) Are people spending? or is the decline still going?

Patstone
25-05-2013, 03:38 PM
We do a craft fair every month apart from Jan and Feb, same place and the last one was on the Sunday of the early Bank Holiday and it went well, between the two of us (my daughter and I both make silver jewellery as a hobby) we sold about £200 which isnt bad for a small seaside town. We do other ones as well but they havent started yet, not really the weather to be stuck in a tent amid a mudbath. I should think the one tomorrow would be quite good as its predicted sun, but the wind is too cold to sit on the beach. One thing I will say, it has definately made a difference having a card machine.

caroleallen
25-05-2013, 07:23 PM
It's a very difficult time to sell jewellery at craft fairs. I'm giving most of them up next year and certainly don't plan to travel to the S East any more. The shows are quite expensive (£500 plus) and the old rule of expecting to take 5 times the table cost has gone out the window, particularly if I also add in the travelling, hotels, meals out etc. I'll still be doing a couple of local ones at Christmas, but that's it.

I think your prices are way too low Pat. If you concentrate your efforts on making more expensive items you'll find that people will be prepared to pay more. People don't value items that don't cost much.

Exsecratio
25-05-2013, 09:22 PM
May I offer my humble opinion?


People don't value items that don't cost much.

very true, My dear old Grandfather had a market stall many many years ago that sold vegetables, he had runner beans on it that were fresh picked at the usual price and some that were not quite so perfect at half price. The normal priced ones all sold but the half price didn't. My Gran told him to increase the price of the cheap beans to a little above what was normal price the next day and not to mention the fact they were "seconds"

They all sold....

It's human nature to expect the best to cost...when it doesn't, most of us (including me) will be asking ourselves "What's wrong with it" and "why are they so cheap" or even "that's too cheap to be any good".

best wishes

Dave

medusa
26-05-2013, 09:19 AM
Thank you, trouble is that if I can't sell stuff I won't be able to carry on making as I am retired, even now I have had people remark that the items are too pricey. Some of the early stuff on the website was when we were still learning the basics and isn't very well finished, but most of it has sold now, but its there really to show what we can do.

I think you are maybe selling in the wrong place. if you are adjacent to mass produced crap selling at low prices it is not going to be easy to sell anyway and your stuff will look pricey next to that. Plus people saying stuff is pricy are usually people who buy in Claire's Accessories. Next time someone tells you it's too expensive, remind them that they are hand made by you out of precious metals and not some child in an Asian sweatshop who hasn't seen daylight for a week.



I think your prices are way too low Pat. If you concentrate your efforts on making more expensive items you'll find that people will be prepared to pay more. People don't value items that don't cost much.

This: A friend of mine who does repro enamel was not selling so she kept lowering her prices to the point that her profit (including labour) on each pendant or whatever was around £5. Eventually after lots of badgering she tripled the prices and they now sell much better. Dave's granny knew exactly why this works. If your stuff is priced at sweatshop labour prices, then that's what people will think it is.

Maybe you could try selling on Etsy or Folksy?

caroleallen
26-05-2013, 10:20 AM
I'd also suggest that you concentrate on a small range of exquisite and unusual pieces that complement each other, rather than a large range of one-off pieces. (you may say that's good coming from me who has the biggest range in the world!)

Patstone
27-05-2013, 02:48 PM
Wow, thats quite a voice you got there. All seem to think we are selling too low, the craftfair that we go to is well regulated as far as other jewellers. Nobody does the handmade, designer stuff, so we are one of a kind, but yesterday we had coachloads of people come into the hall, and most of them were in the pensioner age range, (not being nasty as I am also a pensioner), they were picking things up and commenting how nice they were and putting them down again and leaving, and all the stands were the same not just ours. One chap who always seems to sell a lot is a painter (if you can call him that), he sploshes coloured paint on canvas and sells them for £300 plus, and they are literally just paint flicked on, just like when I was painting the outside of our house once and I flunk the paintbrush to get the meths out and the paintbrush had blue in from before and not washed out properly, whoops, guess whose white walls had blue splashes on them.

caroleallen
27-05-2013, 04:05 PM
Ah yes, pensioners! People who come on coaches never buy as they're just having a day out. I'm always amazed too at how people who sell daubs seem to do so well.

I've also gone down the route of making my jewellery as cheap as possible and it really doesn't work in the long run. A few years ago people had money in their pockets and would often treat themselves. Now they keep their money in their pockets unless it's something they really need like a present for someone else. The only time craft fairs really work now is at Christmas. Sorry to be so gloomy.

Patstone
27-05-2013, 04:34 PM
Most of the stuff on our stall is over £25 so its not mega cheap. but I still feel that we are learning, and I know that mine in particular arent perfect, not for the want of trying but saying that I have sold stuff that wasnt perfect and the buyer has been delighted with it. Peters pricing worked out if I understood him correctly, to be the price of the silver, labour and other overheads x 1.2 as a wholesale price and x 2 on the top for retail. So if you had silver worth say £5 and overheads, which in our case is only the rental of the stall and card machine, just for arguments sake we will say another £5, labour say another £6 an hour assuming you make it in an hour, item so far is £16 x 1.2 = £19.20 = £38.40 which as I said before I think is too much and it is bound to cost more as you (or at least I) wouldnt be able to make it in an hour.

Exsecratio
27-05-2013, 04:36 PM
money in their pockets unless it's something they really need

Very much so, in the industry I'm in pricing is the hardest consideration on any job.

New customers tend to fall into several categories for non essential retail items,

Don't like it, (no sale here, they simply don't like your stuff)
Like it but can't afford it & wouldn't buy it, (window shoppers mainly)
Like it but wouldn't actually buy it, (holds their interest for a few minutes to maybe hours)
Like it but would buy if it was cheaper, (probably can't really afford to spend that much on something they don't need and will be telling you next week they found the same cheaper if they do buy)
Like it and will convince themselves to buy it but begrudge the actual price, (whole can of problems, if so much as one reflection isn't perfect down to sub micron level they will be on the phone complaining to balance the fact they overspent)
Love it and don't care about the price. (they are probably coming back next week with a pile more money to buy from you)
Buying because it's YOU they are buying from (The Holy Grail of customers!!)

There are a few sub categories but pretty much most buyers fall into the above.

Of course this only applies to non-essentials, (luxuries) it's human nature to try and save money on what we "must" buy but to ignore the same considerations when it's items we "want" to buy.

I'm as guilty of confusing the two as anybody :) I "needed" a Nissan GTR.....I didn't, but I convinced myself I did in part to justify the cost.

It seems to be the way if the first question you get asked is "how much is it" then you should prepare for the sale to take some work.

Just my humble thoughts on it really.

best wishes

Dave

caroleallen
27-05-2013, 04:43 PM
That's why selling online is so great, cos you don't know who's looking at your work until they actually buy it. You don't have to sit around for hours while people paw your work and mess up your display.

Exsecratio
27-05-2013, 05:01 PM
Most of the stuff on our stall is over £25 so its not mega cheap

Rightly so, all of you Ladies & Gents have a skill, if a Plumber want's to charge me £60 an hour for doing a job the average person can learn then how much is the time of a skilled craftsperson worth in comparison?

Anybody who puts their mind to it can be a Plumber (no offence to plumbers) but not all of us (non jeweller types) could hope to have the skill sets most people here have.

best wishes

Dave

Keia
27-05-2013, 06:39 PM
There's also the two very valid points that have already been mentioned in this thread:
If you are asked to re-make an item at the current price you have it on for, would your heart sink at the prospect or would you skip off happily to your bench?
That's how to gauge if you're undercharging.
And secondly, as Peter quite rightly pointed out, you don't want to be creating a hole in the market for everyone else.

I've since re-done all my prices (using Peters formula) but I don't feel bad for it anymore because I made them, I sat for hours labouring away, I buy my tools, I pay my tax and damned right I will not give my stuff away.
You make your jewellery Pat and it's amazing what you do - if anyone could just do it then everyone would just be doing it, right?
You have skills that you should be appreciated a bit more for - your not running a charity Pat, you're trying to make a living. If you get any snidey customers that moan about your prices, show them your hallmarks and your portfolio of your *handcrafted* jewellery. Maybe, a little step-by-step poster on how things were made so they can visulise all the work you put into every piece.
Your jewellery is very beautiful Pat and you should have the confidence to ask a wee bit more ;) All the best xx

Summer
12-01-2014, 01:40 AM
Very interesting read, I usually flap at my prices, but do believe I deserve better than pennies, but i'm still learning so worried as I don't want to over charge.
You are welcome to have a look at my site and pass judgement lol (I know i need to get my own domain and will).
Could do with a thread for passing on constructive comments :-)
Would help if i put the url in, Hmm must be time for bed.

http://jacquelineojewelry.weebly.com

Patstone
12-01-2014, 07:49 AM
Well to make you feel better, everyone is still learning. There are a few on this website who learned the hard way, spending years of their young lives polishing and learning, they are better equipped than me to criticise or praise as I have only been making myself for four years. I have found out the hard way that the "finish" is very important. If you take photo's of everything you make, then zoom in, urgh it sometimes leaves a lot to be desired and in a couple of years you can look back and see how you have improved. I shudder at some of the early things I made, just to think I made it was good enough then, but now I ask myself If I would buy it and pay that price. One thing you are right about is the website, it doesn't do you justice, the pics are too small for starters. I know you can make them bigger but at a glance, and people tend to scan quickly. I have had my website for quite a few years now, and not done any active advertising apart from handing out business cards by the thousand and so far not sold a thing from the website, so don't expect it to make huge difference to sales. I hope this is constructive criticism, try going to a few local craft shows, test the water. Just don't get disheartened, what one person hates, another loves.

caroleallen
12-01-2014, 09:27 AM
I like some of your designs Jacqueline, particularly the wave pendant. The main thing that I would change on your website is to take out the apostrophes in "pendant's". Some really pedantic people (like me) will be put off by that!

Myosotis
12-01-2014, 11:20 AM
Are you UK based Jacqueline? Only saying because you're using the American spelling of "jewelry" rather than jewellery

ps_bond
12-01-2014, 11:47 AM
I've been *far* too quiet on this thread recently :)

Something of relevance from the recent Winter Jewels exhibition on cost of selling:

Cost of cabinet + furniture + lighting + lock (basically a one-off, so can be written off against multiple exhibitions).
Cost of business cards.
Cost of travel to and from venue - in this case, setup, teardown and 3 days (minimum) stewarding.
Cost of food, tea, coffee while at venue (OK, not everyone ate there, but).
Cost of time for 3 days stewarding - 7.5 hours per day.

In order to break even on exhibiting, the level of sales needed cover that, the wholesale cost of the items sold and the commission to the venue. If you assume a 100% retail markup and a 25% commission (makes the numbers easy), you have to have 4* the total above to cover your costs.

Of course, that doesn't factor in marketing, awareness and everything else that arises from the exhibition.

Nick martin
12-01-2014, 01:25 PM
I too have found this an interesting read.

Just to add my comments, for what they're worth, this is how I'm doing it.

My website isn't yet built, but I'm talking to a few outlets locally that want to stock and sell the pieces I'm making, albeit they'll be taking a fixed commission for doing so.

However.. As all my pieces I make are one-offs, I'm charging a premium as such as I honestly believe it makes them a bit exclusive and special. So my formula is basically the cost of the metal to me, plus chain and box, then I'm adding on a 100% markup.

As I'm still very much learning new skills and trying to become more advanced, then I'm not factoring in my labour as of yet, and admittedly it's also because jewellery making is not my full time occupation.

I'm regularly selling items via word of mouth which is satisfying, so my basic formula as such is working for me.

One thing I feel VERY strongly about, is not to undersell anything as in my case they've taken hours to make and prepare. If someone likes it enough then they'll pay for it.. Me included!

Nick

caroleallen
12-01-2014, 01:26 PM
The thing you can't put a price on though is publicity from being at the event and sales after the event. That said, there are very few events I would bother with these days as I have to travel a long way to a good event and then have to add in hotel costs and all meals etc. It's getting harder and harder to make a living from doing shows and galleries. If I didn't have online presence, I'd have given up long ago.

caroleallen
12-01-2014, 01:29 PM
I think the salient point here is that you're not factoring in labour. That makes it harder for people for whom it is their full time job to charge a reasonable amount.




I too have found this an interesting read.

Just to add my comments, for what they're worth, this is how I'm doing it.

My website isn't yet built, but I'm talking to a few outlets locally that want to stock and sell the pieces I'm making, albeit they'll be taking a fixed commission for doing so.

However.. As all my pieces I make are one-offs, I'm charging a premium as such as I honestly believe it makes them a bit exclusive and special. So my formula is basically the cost of the metal to me, plus chain and box, then I'm adding on a 100% markup.

As I'm still very much learning new skills and trying to become more advanced, then I'm not factoring in my labour as of yet, and admittedly it's also because jewellery making is not my full time occupation.

I'm regularly selling items via word of mouth which is satisfying, so my basic formula as such is working for me.

One thing I feel VERY strongly about, is not to undersell anything as in my case they've taken hours to make and prepare. If someone likes it enough then they'll pay for it.. Me included!

Nick

Summer
12-01-2014, 01:42 PM
Afternoon :-) Thanks for taking a look and pointing out some issues that need addressing.

Pat, I know what you mean especially with the "in the twist with heart pendant" must be honest, was in a rush to get them on, all the heart pendants you see on the site are waiting to be hallmarked, so thought i'd wait till after that before giving them a good going over, my mistake and one I shall learn from. :-)

Carol, I get confuddled with the blinking things, If it was down to me there wouldn't be any lol. Thank you for liking some of my designs :-)

Myosotis, thanks, yep UK :-) confusing, why can't we all spell it the same lol, I used to spell it Jewellery, then someone on a UK selling site said it was wrong so I changed it, then I had an e-mail on Friday from a gent who also said it should be Jewellery, so it is down on my to do list. :-)

Peter, I know there is an awful lot to take into account when doing events, I learned that in December, it included an overnight stay too, and agree they need to be covered in the costs somewhere. :-)

Nick martin
12-01-2014, 01:51 PM
Fair comment Carol, but the problem I have is that I'm still very much a novice therefore I'm not as proficient or as quick at making pieces as I'd ideally like to be. If I factored in my labour then I dare say I'd be too expensive at what I'm selling.

Also if you're like me, and I believe that lots of people are, then as long as I can afford it then I'll happily pay good money for something I like / need. Ie not necessarily looking at price as being the defining factor.

I'm also trying to create a bit of a USP. for me its the unique route, but I try other methods too. An example would be a pendant a lady asked me to create with a historical link and that signified affection. After lots of head scratching, I melted down several 17th century silver 'love token' coins ( that I found.. Hence zero cost ) as well as providing her with provenance, a brief history, and photos of the process.

As a result she was very pleased with the outcome. Now I'm not saying the finished piece was a work of art, but I was pleased with it too and my customer happily paid a premium for it ( £500 ).

Nick

art925
13-01-2014, 10:19 AM
I think the salient point here is that you're not factoring in labour. That makes it harder for people for whom it is their full time job to charge a reasonable amount.

This is an important point Carole. But more importantly for you Nick, is that in the future it makes it harder for you to factor in labour because your customers become accustomed to paying a price for your work. In 2 or 3 years when you want to start factoring in your labour costs it will become difficult for yourself.

medusa
13-01-2014, 03:59 PM
Fair comment Carol, but the problem I have is that I'm still very much a novice therefore I'm not as proficient or as quick at making pieces as I'd ideally like to be. If I factored in my labour then I dare say I'd be too expensive at what I'm selling.



well, it depends how much you charge for labour. When I started I charged about 50p per hour for labour. Nowadays, on most things I'm charging around £7 ph. There are one or two things which are still in the 50p ph rate but those are counterbalanced by another product which works out at about £15 ph.

It is really tricky deciding what the hourly rate is for me, so I tend to see what others are charging for similar and then charge roughly the same.