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Jazzy
24-01-2013, 08:53 AM
Hi,

I have been asked to make a Byzantine bracelet with either 2mm or 1.8mm round wire, has any one used this size wire previously (it seems very big to me).
I have looked at the ar and arrived at (by multiplying 1.8x3.5=6.3 and 2.0x3.5=7)however I am unable to trial run as I don't have 6.3 or 7mm wire in copper or brass and am reluctant to use silver only to find after cutting the rings they are slightly to loose or to tight,any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you,



John

mizgeorge
24-01-2013, 10:31 AM
I've done both 2mm and 1.75, and yes, it makes a big chain! I have to admit that I find Byzantine a bit clunky at these sorts of sizes - the spiral based weaves like JPL look much nicer in this kind of gauge.

You shouldn't have any problem finding a 7mm mandrel - think knitting needle or transfer punch, and if you want to go for the slightly thinner wire and have problems finding the right size, it's very easy to sand a bamboo needle down a little (they're usually a bit under anyway). Bear in mind that at these sizes, the weave will be quite forgiving, so the AR can come down just a little.

Your biggest problem will be springback, so you may need to anneal the wire before coiling to try to avoid the rings growing too much!

Jazzy
24-01-2013, 02:28 PM
Hi miz George

Thanks for your advice, am I right in assuming springback occurs after winding but before cutting,before reading your reply I was under the impression springback was caused by cutting as the wire being under tension sprung apart,would I be better adjusting the mandrel size ie maybe 9.50/975 to compensate for any expansion in ring size.

Would this result in a nice tight weave which I would prefer to a loose weave.
Your help is very much appreciated.



Thank you


John

mizgeorge
24-01-2013, 03:22 PM
You're right John, springback happens when you release the tension that builds up whilst you coil. The whole coil relaxes a little, increasing the inner diameter by, in some cases, quite a lot. It's more of a problem with harder temper sterling (HH or more) and with metals like brass and bronze, which are harder to work to start with. Copper is softer, so it's less of an issue, but it will still open up a little.

I would probably coil the 2mm on a 6.75mm mandrel rather than a 7 to keep the weave nice and tight, and for 1.8mm wire, I think I'd risk a 6mm mandrel.

hope that helps!

Jazzy
24-01-2013, 03:47 PM
Thanks mizgeorge you're a genius really appreciate your help.


Thank you

John

DGFerguson
24-01-2013, 05:12 PM
4250 Just to put my two pennorth in, I often use 1.2 mm wire to make byzantine chains and the best ID I've found is 5 mm, this picture was using ringlord rings and their AR is 4.1
I personally find this a really nice proportion for chunky bracelets

mizgeorge
24-01-2013, 06:39 PM
4250 Just to put my two pennorth in, I often use 1.2 mm wire to make byzantine chains and the best ID I've found is 5 mm, this picture was using ringlord rings and their AR is 4.1
I personally find this a really nice proportion for chunky bracelets

The one in the picture looks nice, but I think it's being helped a lot by the neoprene / silicone rings, which grip the metal slightly and stop it moving around so much. In all metal, an AR of 4 is very floppy and doesn't hold its square profile well. The AR 3.4 version of the same rings from the Ringlord hold the shape of the chain much better IMO.

trialuser
24-01-2013, 09:01 PM
OK put me out of my misery.
What is the AR number?
Apologies for being dim.

DGFerguson
24-01-2013, 09:56 PM
its the Aspect Ratio - the inner diameter of the ring divided by the thickness of the wire. CGMaille has a good article as does maillartisans.org.

Mizgeorge - I usually use 20g 1/8th rings, 4 AR from the ringlord and that makes a nice tight proportion as well, very close AR to the ones above (18g 3/16th 4.1 AR) I can't say I've every seen it as floppy, although I do always use 3 connecters for that AR or it would be.

mizgeorge
24-01-2013, 11:48 PM
Mizgeorge - I usually use 20g 1/8th rings, 4 AR from the ringlord and that makes a nice tight proportion as well, very close AR to the ones above (18g 3/16th 4.1 AR) I can't say I've every seen it as floppy, although I do always use 3 connecters for that AR or it would be.

So you aren't making a traditional byzantine. There is a reason why it's ideal AR is set at 3.5...

Trialuser, Aspect Ratio is the relationship between wire gauge and inner diameter (ID) of a jump ring. So as above, you can divide the ID by the wire gauge to get the AR, or use a known AR to calculate the correct size ring for any given chain maille weave.

It's much easier to work out in metric measurements, both for wire gauge and ID, especially given that different suppliers use different imperial gauges for their wire measurements, which can lead to quite a lot of confusion.

For example, the Byzantine weave works best with an AR of 3.5.

So for 1mm wire, you would cut rings with a 3.5mm diameter
and for 1.5mm wire, you would work to a 4.5mm diameter

Every weave has an AR (or sometimes more than one if multiple ring sizes are involved) and some are more forgiving than others in terms of how far you can deviate before the weave will either not hold together properly, or be so tight as to be impossible to add new rings.

trialuser
25-01-2013, 12:49 AM
Thanks for the replies.
I'm familiar with aspect ratio in the context of photography / images / screens 16:9 - 3:2 etc.
Aspect ration is a new one on me :)
I hadn't appreciated chainmail was so involved.

mizgeorge
25-01-2013, 09:41 AM
Oops, apologies for the typo! We seem to have lost the edit facility so I can't correct it!

Moon Willow
25-01-2013, 09:55 PM
4259
The large bracelet is made as follows...... ring spit....4.3 mm (ID) with silver wire 1.2 mm I don't think you can get tighter than this, correct me if I'm wrong, and the smaller one is made of 1 mm wire and methinks 3.5 mm ring spit..

Carlton