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Lucie
04-01-2013, 03:22 PM
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to see if any of you had any opinions regarding PO boxes.

I make my jewellery from home and work on some relatively pricey pieces. I don't really want to use my actual address on my website or leaflets for the sake of security - just recently there was a jeweller shot dead at his home in a local town & another couple local to us were forever getting broken into - not something anyone wants, but especially not with 3 small children in the house!!!

I thought about going down the route of getting a PO Box, but have been told that this might 1) put off customers and 2) Isn't actually much more secure than a house address.
There are companies out there that offer "real street addresses", but looking at reviews of some of them, you probably wouldn't want to go near them (very expensive hidden costs / post going missing, etc).

So here's my question - Would a PO Box put any of you off, or is this an out-dated idea? Do any of you have any better suggestions?

Thanks in advance for your help with this. xx

mizgeorge
04-01-2013, 04:24 PM
I believe that distance selling regulations require that you have geographic postal address on your website, and PO boxes are not acceptable. I'm not sure what the rules are on using a handling address, but I suspect they are the same.

I have to say I would never buy from any site that didn't include a 'real' address, a telephone number and an email address (rather than just a contact form).

Whilst not trying to downplay any worries you might have, having good home security and adequate insurance (usually a separate policy for the business side of things) is the best thing you can do.

caroleallen
04-01-2013, 05:18 PM
I used to have my home address on my website until someone on here (I think it was James) suggested that was a bad idea. Since I took my address off, I haven't noticed a drop in sales.

Lucie
04-01-2013, 05:25 PM
Thank you very much for your responses :) My problem is that I need to recieve packages from customers to make my jewellery, so I need to have a postal address of some sort. Quite a few people have said that PO Boxes would put them off, but I find the idea of using my home address a bit scary!

Can you guys think of any other options? I had thought about approaching one of my local high street jewellers - I suppose I could offer to pay them something, but i'm not sure how that would work?

Thanks again. x

caroleallen
04-01-2013, 05:35 PM
Can you maybe let them have the address once they've placed the order? I've no problem with giving customers my address, I just don't want every Tom, Dick and Harry to know.

pearlescence
04-01-2013, 05:57 PM
You have to have your trading address on your website, that's the law, whether you like it or not .
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf

Lucie
04-01-2013, 06:04 PM
Thank you very much for the link - i've spent a couple of years setting up my little business & building my site. I can't believe none of the local "business advisors" ever pointed this out!! To be honest, it didn't even cross my mind :(

I might approach my stone setter about the possibility of using his address unless anyone can think of something I havn't yet?

xxx

Lucie
04-01-2013, 06:42 PM
Just reading through the info & looks like Carole might be onto something here (yay). It seems to say that geographical address / physical location only actually needs to be disclosed once a customer has decided to buy :)
Were you really established shen you dropped the address from your website Carole? As a complete start up, I wonder if people would expect to see an address up front?
x

caroleallen
04-01-2013, 07:10 PM
Yes I was established when I dropped my address. I make a big thing about my stuff being made in Cornwall, which I guess gives a bit of authenticity.

Lucie
04-01-2013, 07:13 PM
Thank you all very much for your help with this - think you might have solved my problem & given me some things to think about :) Now off to the day job. Night all x

Gold Girl
04-01-2013, 10:35 PM
I don't really want to use my actual address on my website or leaflets for the sake of security............ I thought about going down the route of getting a PO Box, but have been told that this might put off customers and Isn't actually much more secure than a house address........ There are companies out there that offer "real street addresses",............(very expensive hidden costs / post going missing, etc).

So here's my question - Would a PO Box put any of you off, or is this an out-dated idea? Do any of you have any better suggestions?

As an online cash for gold company we did a lot of research into this for security reasons, This is how we set it up :

1. Address on website and Ltd company registered address from Virtual Office in London with full mail forwarding service; Clearly show your telephone and email on contact us page.
2. PO box number to send and receive day to day business mail. Traceable to nearest main post office so secure.

Customers feel safe with full Address on website, London address also adds prestige and we fulfil distance selling rules. PO Box address is used for all standard business mail, even the bank who have all our address on file mail to our PO box. Great care must be taken to choose a virtual office who will filter junk mail before forwarding as this service costs per item, be careful to use Virtual office address only on your website. Who use's snail mail these days? if your telephone number and email address is on the same page. HMRC and a surprisingly small number of others will write.
I will happily provide contact details for Virtual office service.

Hope that helps

Patstone
05-01-2013, 06:44 AM
I have my email address and home phone number (albeit ex-directory) and mobile number. People can buy from the website if they want to, but after two years nobody has, so in my write up on the "About Me" part I say that we both live and work in Exeter, Devon. I have had people contact me by phone to ask about certain things, mostly people that saw us at a show and either didnt have enough money on them (we can now take card payments, but only person to person) or wanted to buy it as a present for people they were with. My address isnt on the website for the same reason, I work from home, although all of my work is silver jewellery, there is only semi-precious stones nothing expensive, and I have two dogs, so they would get licked to death if they broke in.

surfergirl
05-01-2013, 09:41 AM
Just reading through the info & looks like Carole might be onto something here (yay). It seems to say that geographical address / physical location only actually needs to be disclosed once a customer has decided to buy :)
Were you really established shen you dropped the address from your website Carole?


I've just read the the guidance that pearlescence linked to which states
You must give your consumers certain information before they agree to buy from you. We refer to this as pre-contractual information which includes the following: if payment is required in advance, you must supply your full geographic address

I guess there may be two scenarios.

1. You have a website with items that are ready to be sold so the customer would just add the item to their basket and then pay. (Is payment required in advance (of the contract)? Yes, because the customer can just 'click and buy'. At the point of sale they are 'agreeing to buy from you').

2. You have a gallery of items that may or may not be ready to sell and the customer needs to make an enquiry to perhaps find out the price of the item. There is no facility to purchase directly from the website. (Is payment required in advance (of the contract)? No, because the customer is just making an enquiry (and is not able to purchase anything anyway). At this stage the customer has not agreed anything).

Scenario 1 - The address should be on the website. How else could the business reveal the address before the customer makes the purchase?
Scenario 2 - The address should be revealed when a response is sent via email. This still gives the customer the necessary information 'before they agree to buy'.

This is how I interpreted it anyhow.

Regards removing an address once becoming an established business, I don't think this is really relevant - a business still needs to fulfil its pre-contractual obligations.

I'm not too keen on having my address on a website but am more than happy to have it as part of my signature in emails but if I want to sell pieces as in scenario 1, unfortunately, I'd need to display an address (or so it seems?).

Lucie
05-01-2013, 11:59 AM
Hi everyone. Thanks for the comments :) Goldgirl - Is it the virtual office address on your website or your actual geographical address? I'd be really interested in the details of the virtual office as I've been having trouble locating one that has good reviews at a reasonable price!!
Is a virtual office address acceptable as it isn't actually where I operate the business from?

Patstone - My entire business will be online (once I actually get it going :) as I have no means of having a physical shop and to be honest, I do't live in the kind of area where folk buy a lot of jewellery! I was hoping that it might be acceptable to provide an address once an order has been placed? I think buying a big dog might actually be a plan though :).

Surfergirl - The way the website works is that items available to buy are all viewed in galleries, but people don't buy from the website using a shopping cart. All items are bespoke, so customers decide on a design they like, then it's tailored to them once they decide to order. Payment is taken in advance, but only once a customer has decided to go ahead and place an order.
I only put "average" prices on my website because I work in silver, gold and sometimes platinum - prices vary so much on a daily basis that i'd be shooting myself in the foot to put exact prices on the site - I could end up losing a lot of money! Prices are again agreed when an item is ordered.
Does that make any sense?
I have no problem providing an address once an order has been placed, but thought that missing the address off the website completely might make me look like i'm not legit.
I'm worried that it might 1. Not be legal and 2. might lose me customers.

xx

Gold Girl
06-01-2013, 10:42 AM
Goldgirl - Is it the virtual office address on your website or your actual geographical address? I'd be really interested in the details of the virtual office as I've been having trouble locating one that has good reviews at a reasonable price!!
Is a virtual office address acceptable as it isn't actually where I operate the business from?

The company we use for our Virtual Office in London is London Office ltd telephone 0208 417 1452 I dealt with Robert he's completely up to speed with the legality, and I found him most helpful; please do tell him you were referred by 247 Cash for Gold Ltd.

We are a ltd company and use our VO as Registered office as well as (Geographic) London Address. Don’t be mislead by ‘virtual’ they have offices to rent for meetings, a boardroom to rent by the hour, telephone answering service etc.

You are 100% correct a website without an address does not look legit. Easily found and easily verified contact details are essential for a successful website. Potential customers are very quickly lost. My advice is build your website with a personnel touch and feel, allow your customers to understand who you are, build a relationship by writing (talking) to your customers rather than selling. Personalise you website shopping experience as you would your high street shop. If you had a shop you would not give out you home address, even if you created all your jewellery and did the admin from home.

medusa
06-01-2013, 01:09 PM
I don't have an address on my site at all, never have. I also don't have a shopping cart system. If someone wants something, they email me and depending on what it is, they either get a papypal invoice for full payment or deposit. The paypal invoices have my address on them, so the only people who have my address are those who are requesting an item.

Lucie
06-01-2013, 08:47 PM
Thanks for the feedback folks!
I like the idea of a virtal office & will contact them tomorrow for price details - Thank you very much for these Goldgirl :)

I have looked around at a few other "similar" sites to mine & have noted with interest that many of them don't reveal an address until after an order is placed - like you have suggested Medusa. They seem to have been running for a number of years successfully without it affecting their business.

Still sitting on the fence with this one, but really really appreciate all the help and advice! x

pearlescence
07-01-2013, 10:49 AM
Lots of businesses online are in breach of the Distance Selling Regulations.
You can see what the law is here
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf

medusa
07-01-2013, 02:11 PM
Thanks for the feedback folks!
I like the idea of a virtal office & will contact them tomorrow for price details - Thank you very much for these Goldgirl :)

I have looked around at a few other "similar" sites to mine & have noted with interest that many of them don't reveal an address until after an order is placed - like you have suggested Medusa. They seem to have been running for a number of years successfully without it affecting their business.

Still sitting on the fence with this one, but really really appreciate all the help and advice! x

technically my customers have the address and full name etc information before an order is placed because all that info is on the paypal invoice. I don't consider an order placed until either a deposit (in the case of custom orders, which make up the bulk of my sales) or full payment is made.

Very occasionally I get people wanting to pay by bank transfer in which case I email my name and address details along with bank details beforehand. Despite the fees I do prefer paypal though, because it makes it easier to keep track of sales.

pearlescence
07-01-2013, 05:13 PM
While you can consider there is no contract made between you and a customer before they pay a deposit or in full, the law does not see it that way. A contract is formed when both sides agree a deal, not when one side performs their part of the deal.
You need to study the DSRs

Tabby66
07-01-2013, 07:38 PM
While you can consider there is no contract made between you and a customer before they pay a deposit or in full, the law does not see it that way. A contract is formed when both sides agree a deal, not when one side performs their part of the deal.
You need to study the DSRs

I'm trying really hard to get my head around this.....but isn't the point of contract when a deposit and thus confirmed agreement is made between you..........until that point nothing is definate...confirmed?? No contract made......??

medusa
07-01-2013, 08:02 PM
While you can consider there is no contract made between you and a customer before they pay a deposit or in full, the law does not see it that way. A contract is formed when both sides agree a deal, not when one side performs their part of the deal.
You need to study the DSRs

I think you misunderstand me. The customer does not get my geographical location AFTER they have performed thier part of the deal, but before they do so. I send out deposit invoices all the time and about 30% of the time they remain unpaid, therefore no contract to provide goods has been made.

To quote the leaflet linked:


When must I supply this information?
Before the conclusion of the contract or in ‘good time’, this means that the consumer has sufficient time to act on it when they receive it, for example, to cancel the contract if needed.

They have all the information from the invoice and can act on it or not as they choose. If they pay, then we are in a contract, if they don't, we aren't.

pearlescence
08-01-2013, 09:32 AM
That is not so in contract law. The contract is formed when terms are agreed in law not when one side does (performs in the parlance) what they should do. So a contract may be formed a long time before anyone pays over a deposit. If you and your customer have agreed that you will make a necklace -so - and they have agreed to pay x with an immediate deposit of y% then that is when the contract is formed.
While in practice you don't do anything until you see their money, in theory if they don't then pay that deposit you could sue on the contract.
A contract is formed when both sides are in agreement on what the contract involves, NOT when one side or the other performs some of it.

medusa
08-01-2013, 12:13 PM
When I send an invoice for a deposit following discussion of what the client wants, the invoice has the detailed information about the item I'm making (all my stuff is made to commission, so people can't just buy off the shelf so to speak), price, timescales etc as well as the geographic location. For me, ~that~ is the contract; a written statement of what I will do, how long it will take and what it costs. The client can then think about that for up to two weeks and decide whether or not to agree to the contract.

In other words, the client gets all the information in a 'durable medium' which it specific to them: http://www.pearne.co.uk/?p=1234

further, the OFT says that such information on a website is not considered durable:
http://www.morrlaw.com/news/cooling-off-rights

So it looks like as long as those of us who don't have a geographic address on our sites make sure the customer gets the information via email or letter, then we aren't in breach.

But even if I were still in breach, given my neighbours propensity for googling local addresses, I'd still not have my address up on the website. If the OFT want to close me down as a result, so be it.

ps_bond
08-01-2013, 01:03 PM
For interest, I've asked for a legal opinion on the subject. It'll take a couple of days.
I am not a lawyer, but I do know one :)

pearlescence
08-01-2013, 01:05 PM
Well, thanks for that goldsmith. I have no problems with complying with the law. My address has been online on my website for some years with no problems at all and as for your comment
'I assume that Pearlescence knows the dangers of adding their home/business address on their website as anyone can check out the address online, finding this photo took me a few minutes.'
You are soooooooooo clever. what a warm feeling posting that pic must have given you

ps_bond
08-01-2013, 01:08 PM
I've posted about this before, but here's someone who *didn't* have his address online -
http://www.thisishampshire.net/news/romseyadvertisernews/5005739.Goldsmith_beaten_up_and_bound_by_raiders/

pearlescence
08-01-2013, 01:11 PM
The issue comes down to when the contract is formed. To discover that would require an examination of the process you go through in negotiations from invitation to treat to offer and then acceptance. It depends on who makes the final offer and who accepts it - do you with your letter detailing what you will do or does the client when they send money? It may be that in your case you are negotiating outside the website altogether in which case the DSRs may not apply.
(Note that the two websites are not official OFT websites, they are solicitors', and generalised and not legally in any way authoritative (dangers of googling law stuff without legal training)
I used to teach contract and European law at university

caroleallen
08-01-2013, 01:40 PM
Having read your post Peter, I don't intend to add my address to my website. It's only ever a problem when people want to visit my studio but as I don't want people coming without an appointment, that's fine. I've never had any customers complaining about the lack of an address and I get loads of orders.

Myosotis
08-01-2013, 02:00 PM
Lots of businesses online are in breach of the Distance Selling Regulations.


Including you it would seem.

Your website states "You can cancel your contract to buy any item selected from this website within 7 days of purchase. I will return your money once you have returned the goods in the condition in which they were supplied to you"

Yet the Distance Selling Regulations that you keep posting says with regards to cancellation rights "Seven working days (not including weekends or bank holidays) after the day on which they receive the goods". Purchase date is surely the date you paid for the goods ie "purchased" rather than when you physically received the goods - your statement is misleading to the consumer

It also states that "the retailer must refund the full amount including the delivery costs as soon as possible after the consumer cancels, and in any case within 30 days at the latest. You cannot insist on the goods being received by you before you make a refund" Yet you state that you will not return the money until you have recieved the goods which surely is a breach of the regulations?

Also you say that you do not offer refunds on earrings yet in the full guide (link below) rather than the brief one you linked to http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf on page 24 3.41-3.44 it clearly states that you have to

medusa
08-01-2013, 03:28 PM
The issue comes down to when the contract is formed. To discover that would require an examination of the process you go through in negotiations from invitation to treat to offer and then acceptance. It depends on who makes the final offer and who accepts it - do you with your letter detailing what you will do or does the client when they send money? It may be that in your case you are negotiating outside the website altogether in which case the DSRs may not apply.
(Note that the two websites are not official OFT websites, they are solicitors', and generalised and not legally in any way authoritative (dangers of googling law stuff without legal training)
I used to teach contract and European law at university

they are generalised of course, but they paraphrase the regs and in relation to having to list a geographic address the regulations are very clear that the 'pre-contractual information' which a geographic address forms part of, must be in a durable form and be given "before goods or services are received by the consumer" (3.1 (vi) in the document myosotis linked, my emphasis).

As information on a website, according to the same doc, is not considered 'durable' then those of us who include our geographic addresses as part of the pre-contractual information via an email or paypal invoice, are not in breach.

In my case, as I only sell online, but even if the negotiations are done via email as is usually my case, I would have thought DSR would actually still apply?

I think it's really useful that this issue has been raised and it's been educational. It's certainly made me look into my returns policy (or more precisely the fact that I don't currently have an official returns policy!) because that is one area where I am in breach due to lack of information. I am now confident that with regard to not displaying a geographic address on my website at least, I'm OK.

medusa
08-01-2013, 04:36 PM
why has pearlescence been banned? She raised some really important points for many of us.

ps_bond
08-01-2013, 04:42 PM
To prevent her from deleting all her posts after one of hers was put in the moderation queue for being snide to another member.
Yes, some very useful points have been raised - not least of which is the OFT's text is guidance, not chapter and verse.

Even the chapter & verse is open to interpretation, more's the pity.

Georgia
08-01-2013, 04:48 PM
Hi Medusa,

There have been posts within this thread that have been reported, the two members have been banned temporarily whilst we look into the incident, they will both be reinstated shortly.

Kind Regards

medusa
08-01-2013, 04:51 PM
Oh, shame. I hope it's not permanent.

Gold Girl
08-01-2013, 05:29 PM
I've posted about this before, but here's someone who *didn't* have his address online -


This Link to the hampshire article proves how important it is to keep your address private - This chap DID NOT have his address online but the theives still found his home.

Another point of interest is they stripped him naked tied him up and beat him, I presume they did this so he would give the combination to his safe. Makes me shudder thinking about the poor man. Security firms all advise a time lock safe set to open after your staff arrive. I think this should be a new post.

Thank you Peter for the info.

Kwant
08-01-2013, 06:22 PM
I leave the children for five minutes and it seems they have near burned the house down :0)

surfergirl
08-01-2013, 06:43 PM
I would agree that some great points have been raised here. It certainly is a minefield especially when, as Peter says, it's open to interpretation.

I also would have thought the DSR's would apply regardless of whether the purchase is from a website. The selling regulations apply to any kind of distance selling which would include home shopping channels (not checked legally though, this is just what I think to be true).


This Link to the hampshire article proves how important it is to keep your address private - This chap DID NOT have his address online but the theives still found his home.

Forget about the baseball bat....maybe I should set up the torch (when I get one!) by the front door....

ps_bond
09-01-2013, 07:56 AM
Right, I have (access to) some practice notes on the subject. These are essentially "what to tell your client" for lawyers.

If you're a registered company, you *must* have your full details on the site - registered name, number & office address.
There are specific requirements for members of regulated professions.

There's one part where "all providers of online services" must provide a geographical address; there's also an ECJ ruling that requires a provider of online services to, before the contract is concluded, give information allowing consumers to contact it via other than email. Not quite sure how that differs from providing a geographical address at the moment.

Note that these are part of the e-commerce regulations, not the DSR.

DSR dictates how goods or services sold remotely shall be handled - it doesn't relate to the mechanism. So this covers shopping carts, phone orders, email orders, letters, presumably carrier pigeon... It applies to contracts conducted *exclusively* by distance communications; so someone who picks something up from you e.g. at a show technically isn't covered by them.

DSR does dictate that you have to supply identity and where the contract requires payment in advance, the address. There's more on the contract terms - cooling off periods etc. but I'm sticking to the address issue here.

If selling stuff online, the information *can* (their wording) be provided on the website, but it isn't considered durable as it can be changed - so it needs to be provided in e.g. an email that can be saved.
Regulation 7(1) of the DSR gets a bit weird though - this information must be given over "in good time prior to the conclusion of the contract" - except that the confirmation of the information can be supplied 3 month after the goods are received (although the information could be on the website to fulfil the preconditions).

Still trying to glean how PO boxes fit in.

I did come up with another spanner to throw into things - the right to privacy, under the Human Rights Act, isn't trumped by the DSR... The idea/ideal is that nothing can trump the HRA (unless it happens to be inconvenient).

If you can show you have sought legal advice over the issue, then you've got some cover & comeback if the OFT says you've got it wrong. Think of it as insurance.

I shall get this proof read soon to make sure I haven't misinterpreted!

caroleallen
09-01-2013, 08:40 AM
Well I've sought legal advice from you Peter, so I'm covered! :)

Lucie
09-01-2013, 09:04 AM
Wow, looks like things got a bit heated whilst I was away. Thank you all so much for your input on this - I hope it didn't cause too much trouble! To be honest, I think i'd be far too nervous to put my geographical address on my site - it's my home & I have 3 little ones here. A couple of jewellers working from home just up the road from here took early retirement as they were absolutely sick and tired of the break-ins.

I send packs out to clients once they have ordered but before I actully make anything, so they can always change their mind even once I have sent them their information. I'm hoping that as long as I send out the full address with the packs I "should" be covered.
I've noticed that other companies seem to operate this way. I'm registered with inland revenue and have to produce tax returns, but am not limited (i'm only just starting out).
Peter, do you think that covers my legal obligations?
Thank you.

ps_bond
09-01-2013, 09:47 AM
Well I've sought legal advice from you Peter, so I'm covered! :)

:D

Doesn't work like that - I've already disclaimed being a lawyer and I've no insurance on it, so I'm afraid it devolves to "I read it on the internet it must be true"...

medusa
09-01-2013, 03:56 PM
hmmmm... I'm not sure how or if that is different from my interpretation of DSR, but I'm not going to shift. If the OFT don't like what I'm doing, I'll just focus everything on etsy.

MeadMoon
09-01-2013, 05:06 PM
Being on Etsy does not negate legal requirements. Have a look at the Etsy help pages, specifically here under "Seller Information":

http://www.etsy.com/help/article/171

medusa
09-01-2013, 06:28 PM
Being on Etsy does not negate legal requirements. Have a look at the Etsy help pages, specifically here under "Seller Information":

http://www.etsy.com/help/article/171

burger! Oddly, I never had to put that info when I joined up and they haven't demanded it from me since. None of the brits I know on etsy have their geographical addresses on there. But I'm still not sticking my address on the site!

MeadMoon
10-01-2013, 10:42 AM
Ummm... I'm a brit and have my address on the site. But it did only get added after I read the above mentioned help page and someone said about the DSRs. I don't think that Etsy themselves check.

Goldsmith
10-01-2013, 01:23 PM
I would agree with Medusa,as I would never post my home or workshop addresses on a website, whatever the rules are.
Worse is that if you are a home worker and the address you post online is your home and workshop and if you advertise that you are a worker in precious metals and precious stones, then there is nothing stopping anyone from looking on Google/Streetview to seek out a photo of your house and it's security, surely this would make you a good target for burglary. Check out your own address and see what I am saying.

James

ps_bond
10-01-2013, 01:50 PM
The other thing to remember is that once information is online, it is to all intents and purposes impossible to remove it. So removing your address at a later point is less helpful than might be liked.

On the privacy/Streetview thing - there isn't any. If your address is online, you've surrendered your privacy.
(although Streetview often gets addresses a bit wrong)

caroleallen
10-01-2013, 01:57 PM
I'm planning on putting up high gates and fences around my property, which hopefully will make it less easy for unwelcome visitors to access the back where my studio is. Luckily our back garden borders a school playing field so there's already a high fence there. My front door is always locked as well, following someone walking in and nicking my bag and cameras last year. I also have a burglar alarm in my studio, so I think I'm covered.

mizgeorge
10-01-2013, 02:39 PM
Not having the address published on your website (if you have one) doesn't mean it's not there. As you have to provide it for your domain registration, it's not difficult to look it up if you want to.

I actually don't think any of us are any more at risk than any other householder - most burglars are more interested in consumer electricals and cash, and whilst they'll take a box of jewellery if they see it, I don't think we're a big target group. I think applying the same sensible security measures that anyone should and having good insurance in place is about the best we can do. As well as keeping fingers crossed from time to time of course.

ps_bond
10-01-2013, 02:50 PM
Not having the address published on your website (if you have one) doesn't mean it's not there. As you have to provide it for your domain registration, it's not difficult to look it up if you want to.

Yup. Domain registration rules allow the hiding of addresses for personal sites, but not for commercial ones.

silken
10-01-2013, 11:25 PM
I wrote a pretty lengthy forum post on Etsy regarding the distance selling regulations as so many people are either not aware of them or unwilling to follow the legislation. As a business, you MUST provide your address. You can use a virtual office address if you are concerned about security, although this is pricey and most often cost prohibitive. Either way, it is a legal obligation. Etsy have no powers to enforce this (nor would they even try to) but they do provide UK sellers with the 'seller information' box at the bottom of the policies page to input your details. It is your responsibility to input the details to comply with the regulations. The distance selling regs as a whole are a bit of a minefield but if you want to read some Etsy related info, my forum post is here:

http://www.etsy.com/teams/7332/etsys-uk-ireland-seller-support-team/discuss/11139774/

ps_bond
11-01-2013, 06:39 AM
Still tap dancing through the minefield...

If someone buys something on Etsy, then Etsy handles the funds, informs the seller, takes a cut... Surely the contract between consumer & vendor is with Etsy, fulfilled by the individual or business advertising the goods? Similarly, with Ebay you are not required to provide address information up front - although a quick scan of a couple of registered business sellers shows that they do provide their address, but is it universal? I must have a look at some of the Amazon marketplace sellers as well.

It's a well-meaning piece of legislation. Fails on execution though.

medusa
11-01-2013, 02:30 PM
Ebay business sellers have to give their addresses if things are on a BIN, I think. At least the UK businesses that I've seen do that.

I'm less bothered about security to be honest than nosey locals googling my address and discovering I'm a freak :cool: As it is there are a number of detailed photos of my house online (I found out about this after one of said neighbours a couple of streets up from me made a big point of telling me that they had googled my street and did I have planning permission for the big velux in my roof?) Not from google street view, as we don't actually have a road you can drive down, but from a local who thought it would be 'nice' to put individual pictures of each house in the street online with comments about them.

No joke, it's like Deliverance-on Sea here.

medusa
11-01-2013, 02:31 PM
Yup. Domain registration rules allow the hiding of addresses for personal sites, but not for commercial ones.

oddly enough, my address doesn't show up on the domain registration for some reason, not sure why.

silken
12-01-2013, 06:13 AM
Personally, I don't agree with the fact that you have to provide a physical address when this address is actually your home. There should be some sort of considerations made for sole traders/small businesses operating from home. That said, it is a requirement at this time and if a particularly legally savvy buyer was to pull you up on it, well, that's where the problems start. I read through the whole documentation on the distance selling regs, sale of goods act and various EU directives pertaining to online selling in a hope to understand my obligations before I begin selling online again.

Regarding contracts etc, after discussing this at length with some others on Etsy (plus input from Etsy admins) the contract is between the consumer and the vendor. Etsy acts as a sales venue/marketplace similarly to a traditional marketplace. For example, you buy something from a market trader or brick and mortar shop and it turns out to be faulty. The contract/sale was between you and the market stall owner/store not with the company operating the market or the company leasing the store space. Etsy facilitates the transaction but the contract remains between buyer and seller.

On eBay, it is the same when it comes to publishing business addresses. All registered business sellers are required by law to add their address and contact details to Buy It Now auction listings. Again, it is not eBay's place to police this they simply provide sellers with the opportunity to do so. It is up to trading standards to talk to anyone failing to do so but to be honest, they probably have bigger fish to fry! However, private sellers don't need to do this and there is a special section within the distance selling regulation guidelines pertaining to auctioned goods designed to protect those who just want to shift a few old DVD's or jumpers. As far a I can remember, only goods bought at a fixed price (buy it now) are covered under the distance selling regulations. Auctions are not included therefore not covered by the legislation. However, items sold as buy it now by private sellers may still be covered by the 7 day cooling off period required under the distance selling regs.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are way too many hoops to jump through as it is and the whole thing needs simplifying but this is what businesses are expected to do at the current time.

Also, custom made items are not covered under the distance selling regulations so this may mean that many of the wonderful jewellers on here who do online commissions may not have to jump through quite as many of those aforementioned hoops ;) PayPal also doesn't cover custom made items in their 'buyer protection' policy so if someone tries to file a significantly not as described case or an item not received case, PayPal will side with you providing it was clearly indicated that the item was custom made and the production/lead time clearly outlined. Well, theoretically that is. PayPal is a law unto itself...

Wallace
12-01-2013, 10:42 AM
oddly enough, my address doesn't show up on the domain registration for some reason, not sure why.
Just for info really, the Whois.com will show any info on any trading business. This is provided at the time of registration.

Therefore, It is with noting that you can have a website as a business signpost, and not share your info, as long as you are not trading from it.

I do think it is interesting that as, we never own the web addresses and we hire them out.... as a 'tennant' should we be sharing that info? Just my warped view I guess.

medusa
12-01-2013, 03:12 PM
Just for info really, the Whois.com will show any info on any trading business. This is provided at the time of registration.

Therefore, It is with noting that you can have a website as a business signpost, and not share your info, as long as you are not trading from it.

I do think it is interesting that as, we never own the web addresses and we hire them out.... as a 'tennant' should we be sharing that info? Just my warped view I guess.

I was unclear, what I meant is, if I type my address into google, the info from whois and the other sites similar, doesn't come up with my website. If I type my website in, then my address does show, which I suppose in terms of security at home is not good, but I'm more concerned about it being the other way around and the website showing when my address is typed in.

Exsecratio
22-05-2013, 07:12 PM
Just a quick thought....while considering DSR's many online companies neglect to consider change of use as well when working from "Home".

As a general thought, situation crooks will just hop in through a broken window or unlocked door. A "professional" crook will do some trading with you, build up a picture and go for the big win when he knows your movements.

Hiding your exact location will deter the situation crook (who is unlikely to spend more than 30 seconds trying to get in) but won't protect you from the more determined crook (who are the ones most likely to do harm or use violence)

The biggest trigger is having a HUGE blue blinking lamp on your redcare alarm system on your front wall, that tells potential robbers you have something worth spending a few thousand on security inside to protect.

I took the easy way to get information when I ran an engineering shop (we manufactured firearms so security was an issue) I asked a convicted career burglar :) for the cost of a few beers he was happy to tell me how "he would have done a job"

best wishes

Dave

Patstone
23-05-2013, 05:58 AM
Mine fortunately is just a hobby, and the amount that I have in stock at any one time is minimal really. I have a website and as yet nobody has bought from it, just looked, but I wouldnt consider putting my address on it, law or not. I do craft fairs and if anyone buys anything they have a business card with my home phone on but thats all.