Imbedded fine silver wire melts! Why? Please help.

[Sweetpeagreen]

Hello. I'm new to this forum, I hope someone can help me, I'm desperate for some advice.

I bought the Kate McKinnon book 'Sculptural Metal Clay' and followed the instructions in there that advise using 1mm+ fine silver wire imbedded into wet clay to create findings etc, and to fire at 899c. I fired a test piece that had 1mm piece of wire imbedded into it, but the whole thing melted. It was a new kiln and the digital display didn't seem to be working properly so I returned it for a replacement. I tested the new kiln today, it seems to be holding the temperature correctly. I fired a piece of 1mm and a piece of 2mm fine silver wire to test it. Within 30 mins both pieces were completely melted!

I don't know what I am doing wrong? I've read elsewhere that others imbed fine silver wire into their clay with no problems...please help! I really don't know what to try or what is causing the problem! Thank you

[mizgeorge]

Fine silver has a melting point of 961c, which would suggest that your kiln controller is reading cooler than it actually is. Bear in mind that kilns do not have an even temperature throughout.

What type of kiln are you using? You may need to calibrate using a separate thermocouple with a digital readout and make the necessary adjustments to the controller temperatures after doing this.

[Sweetpeagreen]

Thank you so much for your reply!

That's why I'm so confused, because I'm setting it below the melting point of fine silver, and the digital controller reads at the temp I have set it to.

The kiln I have is from a website called technicalsupermarket.com and it's the R14-S Standard Table-Top Digital Kiln. I can't post a link but you will find it in google.

What you suggested about a thermocouple etc sounds a bit complicated for me perhaps? :confused: I'm new to all this, and presumed if the kiln sold to me said it would hold the temp I set it at within 2 degrees either side, It would do this??? So it seems the kiln is at fault again?

I feel I'll have a fight on my hands for a refund :'( so disappointed as I saved for ages for that kiln, and can't afford to waste more materials in it.

Thank you for any help you can give

[mizgeorge]

In honesty, it sounds like the temperature readout is quite a long way from the actual temperature - it's not like it's a couple of degrees, it's over 50, so yes, I think you need to go back to the supplier. The melting point of fine silver is a known quantity, so it's not as though there's a question of the temperature for that being wrong.

It's more of a concern for your metal clay, which is also fine silver, as at that level, you will constantly risk melting the whole piece rather than just firing it.

[Sweetpeagreen]

Hi George

Thank you for confirming that. Yes that's my thought too. I've emailed the store asking to return the kiln for a refund, but I know the first time I asked this, they said they don't offer refunds which is how I ended up with a replacement. I just hope they're fair about it, as it's the second kiln in 1 week I have had from them with the same problem, so a refund isn't an unreasonable request I feel - despite it not being their usual policy.

Otherwise, I'm stuck with a £250 kiln that I can't use :'( and that I can't afford to replace...so disappointed.

[pearlescence]

Did you buy from a website? If so they are legally bound by the distance selling regulations and have to give a refund. no ifs ands or buts or their policy. It's a European union law

[Sweetpeagreen]

Really? That's good to know.

I bought the item from an ebay store, which is linked to their own online store. I bought the item on 30th sep and received it I think around 3rd Oct. I then about a week later tested it for first time and complained that it wasn't operating correctly (over firing) and asked for a refund as I didn't feel the item was as reliable as they stated. They said it's their policy not to offer refunds but will exchange. I thought it fair to accept that perhaps the first was damaged in transit as they suggested and received a replacement yesterday. However, the same problem with this one!

I'll look up the regulation and write a formal/legal letter if necessary, because I won't take kindly to losing £250! Thanks for the advice! :Y:

[susieq]

In the UK the sale of goods act is pretty clear about faulty goods. Doesn't matter what they say their policy is - if goods are faulty then you are entitled to a refund of all costs, including any postage.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54

or, slightly easier to understand:-

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/sale-of-goods/understanding-the-sale-of-goods-act/your-rights/


Don't let them fob you off with "its not our policy" ....

Susie

[Sweetpeagreen]

In the UK the sale of goods act is pretty clear about faulty goods. Doesn't matter what they say their policy is - if goods are faulty then you are entitled to a refund of all costs, including any postage.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54

or, slightly easier to understand:-

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/sale-of-goods/understanding-the-sale-of-goods-act/your-rights/


Don't let them fob you off with "its not our policy" ....

Susie


Thanks for the links - very helpful. Actually, I'm surprised at myself for accepting the exchange in the first place, normally I'm quite on the ball with these things. Think it's because I've had mortgage application problems going on at the same time, I'n just worn out! Anyway, I've used one of the templates, and it's ready to send. But I've emailed asking for a refund first, so I'll see what kind of response I get, then I can send it straight away if necessary to show them I mean business! They're actually breaching both the distance selling and sale of goods acts - cheek!

Hopefully I'll get my refund and can put the money towards a better more reliable kiln! Any ideas on what to invest in?

Thanks again to you all for your help :)

[pearlescence]

Dur I got so excited about the Distance selling regs I forgot all about the sale of goods act etc
if they get shirty then don't get angry or anything, jsut say 'oh that's fine, I'll return the item anyway and then trot down to the county court and issue a writ for breach of the contract. You do realise you'll have all the court costs to pay too. don't you and your credit will be ruined if it goes to a judgement' (smile and hang up, wait for them to contact you)
you could also point out that they can return the faulty item to their supplier for full refund too, the law protects them equally

[Sweetpeagreen]

Dur I got so excited about the Distance selling regs I forgot all about the sale of goods act etc
if they get shirty then don't get angry or anything, jsut say 'oh that's fine, I'll return the item anyway and then trot down to the county court and issue a writ for breach of the contract. You do realise you'll have all the court costs to pay too. don't you and your credit will be ruined if it goes to a judgement' (smile and hang up, wait for them to contact you)
you could also point out that they can return the faulty item to their supplier for full refund too, the law protects them equally

I had a reply today saying they will only refund after investigating the fault - which I responded wasn't acceptable. I then replied with the letter quoting my rights and their obligations under the distance selling and the sale of goods regs, and they then became very hostile! What a strange company! Anyway, I've ended up having to agree to a refund on receipt of the kiln (i made it clear the refund is due on receipt of the kiln and not subject to them investigating faults). I have sent it by tracked courier, and once i've received the refund for the kiln, i will be seeking a refund for the cost of the courier, as the sale of goods act also states that if the item is faulty the cost of return should be met by the seller. The seller became unresponsive after being very rude to me, so this is the best I could do.

So just a warning to everyone, stay well clear of this company! The staff are as dodgy as the goods! [-X

[pearlescence]

Who is this cheery non complier with the basics of retail law?
(note, it isn't defamatory if it is true and it is very hard to defame a company anyway)

[ps_bond]

I'm having some fun at the moment trying to get a refund out of RS Components; they seem to have completely lost the plot wrt customer service, DSR & Sale of Goods - so I've taken the opportunity to let them discuss it with their local Trading Standards. If you google for "trading standards complaint form", you should be able to find the TS office local to the trader. Oddly Northants want to go through Citizens Advice, which I haven't seen before.

[susieq]

Found this site, which is advice to retailers regarding consumer rights. Plain English and quite informative.

Susie

http://www.consumerline.org/search/?cat=Advice+for+Consumers+%26+Retailers&item=General+Advice+For+Retailers

[Sweetpeagreen]

Who is this cheery non complier with the basics of retail law?
(note, it isn't defamatory if it is true and it is very hard to defame a company anyway)


Technical Supermarket! Based in Stratford London, but you can find them online. They also trade through eBay

[Sweetpeagreen]

I'm having some fun at the moment trying to get a refund out of RS Components; they seem to have completely lost the plot wrt customer service, DSR & Sale of Goods - so I've taken the opportunity to let them discuss it with their local Trading Standards. If you google for "trading standards complaint form", you should be able to find the TS office local to the trader. Oddly Northants want to go through Citizens Advice, which I haven't seen before.

Hi Peter

Oh no sorry to hear you're going through similar! I hate having these things hanging over me it's horrible isn't it. Thanks for the tip, should I not get my refund issued on them receiving the faulty item on Tuesday as promised, I'll refer them to their local trading standards office, and I'll also seek further advice myself. I'm no expert on the law but, the laws we talk about aren't difficult ones to understand, and so follow as far as I'm concerned.

[Sweetpeagreen]

Found this site, which is advice to retailers regarding consumer rights. Plain English and quite informative.

Susie

http://www.consumerline.org/search/?cat=Advice+for+Consumers+%26+Retailers&item=General+Advice+For+Retailers

That's an excellent link - thank you. Definitely confirms what I have told the seller, which they should have known :(|

[ps_bond]

Oh no sorry to hear you're going through similar! I hate having these things hanging over me it's horrible isn't it. Thanks for the tip, should I not get my refund issued on them receiving the faulty item on Tuesday as promised, I'll refer them to their local trading standards office, and I'll also seek further advice myself. I'm no expert on the law but, the laws we talk about aren't difficult ones to understand, and so follow as far as I'm concerned.

Ach, in my case I know I've got the upper hand. I've already got TS very interested in the situation, my credit card provider covers me if I don't get the refund - and they're garnering some really bad publicity into the bargain.