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SuseA
01-09-2011, 07:24 AM
Hello,

I mentioned in an earlier post about an idea of making an articulated bracelet (meaning, silver sheet oblongs, or other shape - linked using jump rings). I've been considering, for a while now, about using copper in some way and seeing as I have a variety of copper wires (diameters) in my box of bits and pieces - I thought I'd check if there's anything I should know before I attempt to solder this onto my silver.

I'll probably make some small swirls, squiggles or heart shapes (as these are easiest to make) and solder one onto each link. I presume silver solder will be fine, and that I can pickle this without any concerns of cross contamination -but is there anything else I should know?

Also I expect the copper will, over time, oxidise -so does this need treating in any way -to minimise this, or is oxidation unavoidable?

Thanks
Suse

Goldsmith
01-09-2011, 08:11 AM
Hi Suse,

Silver solder is fine for soldering copper to silver, a clean way is to seat the clean copper onto pallions of solder between it and the silver, like a sandwich, this will give you a clean solder joint when the solder runs. When finished, polished and de greased, you can paint the copper with a lacquer to stop any tarnishing, transparent nail polish will also keep copper tarnish free for a while. Some will advise using solder paste, but I have no experience with this.
In the past I have posted tips on using small home made stainless steel clamps when soldering, if you cannot see my old postings, I make small clampsfrom stainless steel sheet for securing items while soldering. Here are some photos.

James
3101

SuseA
01-09-2011, 09:12 AM
Hi James,

This is very helpful - thanks. The idea of using home made stainless steel clamps is brilliant and one that I will definitely borrow :) I've used reverse hold tweezers for a few things in the past, but your examples look more workable.

You mention lacquer for stopping the oxidation - is there a particular brand or type you use?

Suse

Goldsmith
01-09-2011, 10:08 AM
Hi Suse,

I buy my lacquers from Tiranti, see; http://www.tiranti.co.uk/product.asp?Product=1698 ,you can buy a smaller bottle amount to see if it suits you. Tiranti is a good company to keep a note of if you are interested in wax modelling at any time as I get my supplies from them for any modelling I do. Take my tip and spend a bit of time looking over their supplies as there are many things useful for jewellers on their catalogue. I also buy my metal oxydizing chemicals from Tiranti.
See; http://www.tiranti.co.uk/subdivision_product_list.asp?Content=Patination+%2 6+Metal+Treatments+-+Gilt+%2F+Wax+Finishes+%26+Patination+-+Restoration+%26+Finishing&Subcategory=66&Subdivision=272
James

SuseA
01-09-2011, 05:09 PM
Thanks for the links James - I've bookmarked the Tiranti site for future reference and will have a good look around it later.

I'd also just like to say that I think this forum is, well, awesome. Newbies like myself benefit immensely from artisans such as your good self and I for one have already learnt so much from the advice given from the likes of ps_bond, Dennis, mizgeorge, Caroleallen, Joe and many others.. without you even knowing - just by using the search facility and spending time reading the threads you post or respond to. So I'd like to thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience :)

Suse

MeadMoon
02-09-2011, 07:28 AM
I'll second that. The advice found by searching the archives has helped me a lot since joining this forum. Thank you all.

susieq
02-11-2011, 10:09 PM
Hi James - do you use an ordinary 2.0 blade in your saw to cut the clamps? I'm having a particularly frustrating time with soldering at the moment and decided it was time I made some of your clamps. In 5 mins I got about 1.5cm cut and a blunt saw blade. The gauge is 16 - I was attempting to make a cross-brace first, although I have thinner steel I was going to make the clamps from. Do I need a special steel cutting saw/blade?

Thanks, Susie

Dennis
02-11-2011, 11:15 PM
Not James, and he's the expert, but if I were doing it I would either use thinner sheet, say 1.0mm (18gauge) or a heavier blade, say size1. Also lubricate very often. He describes rubbing a piece of candle along the back of the blade. Beeswax is OK too.

When cutting thick sheet (I have just tackled 2.0mm brass) I find that leaning the saw forward and then uprighting it again repeatedly, seems to make lighter work of it. Dennis.

mizgeorge
02-11-2011, 11:56 PM
Platinum King sawblades make cutting steel a great deal easier too.

Goldsmith
03-11-2011, 08:34 AM
Susie, I make my stainless steel soldering clamps from 0.90mm thick sheet and I cut the strips with my standard Glarden Vallorbe jeweller's saw blades. For cutting this steel I would use size 0 or 2/0 lubricated by rubbing a candle up the rear of the blade.
A 4 inch strip of 4mm. width steel will give nice size general use clamps, just file the clamp ends to points that suit the jobs you are clamping.
James

Dennis
03-11-2011, 12:08 PM
That's solved that then, but at the back of my mind the question remains: what was the problem that prompted this query? If we knew, there might be other approaches you hadn't thought of. Dennis.

susieq
03-11-2011, 01:10 PM
Thanks James - I seem to have ordered two thicknesses of stainless steel and thought the cross-brace was cut out of thicker. I will abandon this and revert to the thinner, which I did not try.

Dennis - its the same old same old of from me of wonky soldering - I'm trying to make a russian bangle set out of silver wire but the darn stuff keeps moving just before the solder flows. I start off with nice tight joints, just a little bit of spring to keep the wire together, heat gently opposite the join to start with and then gradually move around. Just as the flux clears and the solder looks as if it might consider flowing, the join opens up and the wire moves slightly. Hence, I thought I'd give the clamps a go. The wire I'm using is 2mm thick, although I also have 2.5mm and 3mm, as I thought I would mix in different widths for a bit more interest.

I don't yet have a torch at home (still looking for the "one fits all", which of course, does not exist) so I only get a couple of hours a week at evening class to try and solder and its driving me nuts. Yesterday I tried soldering 3mm round wire, and apart from looking like the whole thing was going to melt just before the solder ran, the soldering joint although not too bad, is still not good enough for my liking.

Anyway, my trial and error at working out the size for the bangles is working out as more "error" so I have cut the joins and taken 1cm out of each. Although I didn't have time to solder them yesterday, they do look like they may hold together better, so am keeping my fingers crossed for next week.

Susie

Dennis
03-11-2011, 06:11 PM
Yes, I have been making bangles lately and hope to show the results next week. It is surprising just how much heat, evenly spread, you need for these quite thin wires. What you are trying to do is to bring the whole bangle up to temperature, not just the join. I got round this by building up a kiln with bricks to retain the heat. You might also have better results using easy solder which flows at a lower temperature.

It looks as if James’ cross brace will do the trick for holding the ends together, although I ended up tying the wire to a perforated brick with binding wire instead.

For home use you can get away with a minitorch for small items and links, plus a DIY plumbing torch which uses canisters of propane butane mix from ironmongers or DIY stores. Either Campingas or Go System will do, but if you can afford it get a self-igniting one. The size of the canister only affects the length of time it will stay alight, and which make you choose depends on local availability. For extra heat you can sometimes use them together like toting two guns.

You also need a hearth such as a stout roasting tin and nothing flammable behind it. Dennis

susieq
03-11-2011, 07:37 PM
Thanks Dennis

I have one of the self igniting plumbing torches but have only used it for annealing - the flame doesn't seem to adjust sufficiently for soldering jobs. In the instructions it says there is a finer nozzle available, but I've yet to track one down.

I've only ever used hard solder - my stubborness tells me that I need to master it, and as my joints are less than perfect easy solder joints will show more and annoy me.

On a positive note, at least soldering and resoldering will give me more practice - and I have platinol to hide the firescale if necessary!

If I summon up the courage I'll post a photograph of the copper bangle I was trying to solder yesterday - I sweat soldered part of it and tried to use a pair of reverse action tweezers to hold it for the second part of the soldering. Needless to say it hasn't soldered, but I have a rather bent and singed pair of tweezers that I need to replace!

Susie

Dennis
04-11-2011, 02:05 AM
I forgot to mention, that for this purpose, a few pallions of strip solder work best. In reply to your comments:

1.Once alight, it is possible to reduce the flame to about three quarters of its full size by turning down the gas, so reducing the heat.
2.The hottest part of a flame is close to the tip of the blue cone, so by using that part of the flame furthest from this you can reduce the working temperature further.
3.Lastly by moving the flame around continuously, you will not over heat any part of your work. This is best monitored in subdued lighting.

As for the difference in colour between hard and easy solder for these small joints, you will be hard pushed to tell the difference.

I did originally have a pencil attachment for my torch, but never found it much use and soon gave it up.
Dennis.

Patstone
04-11-2011, 06:31 AM
I am glad someone else has problems soldering wire bangles with the plumber type gas cylinder torch. I already had one from before that I bought to solder a pipe once, and thought "ideal, I wont have to buy one", but found the same as you the flame is ideal for annealling and heating big items quickly but useless for soldering, and I couldnt find a smaller nozzle either. I bought a small cooks torch, which I still find very good but needs refilling often and the heat is very intense and sometimes too much, and at the same time I bought a torch similar to the Sievert one, which is marvellous. The only pain is that it isnt self igniting, and uses a big bottle which isnt ideal for spare bedroom soldering - but saying that I use it out of preference, but it was expensive to buy to start with. The gas bottle is a bit bulky tho, (but mine has lasted about a year), standing about a foot across and a foot high, but under the bench its fine and out of the way.

Patstone
04-11-2011, 06:34 AM
Hi Dennis, I like the idea of the roasting tin, it would be ideal in my situation, no more burnt carpets where balls run off the desk and make nasty black marks, and the stink of burning wool - yuk. Pat

Patstone
04-11-2011, 06:45 AM
Hi James, I used some stainless steel staples that I had left over from re-upholstering a stool, they worked well but a bit small, so I too will be copying your idea of making your own. As you probably know I am blind in one eye and find judging distance a problem so I set things up nicely for soldering, but you can bet your life that by the time I go to solder it I have knocked it off, and have to start again, thanks once again for your good ideas and the help you have all given me since I started.

mizgeorge
05-11-2011, 01:10 AM
I don't know if it helps anybody, but my favourite tool for holding bangles in place for soldering is a pack of 'T' pins (as used by quilters and picture framers). I place these around the outside of the whole bangle, either on a honeycomb block or directly into a charcoal brick, and they hold it perfectly in place, stop any expansion at the joint, and don't have the heat sink effect of using heavier clamps. I generally opt for two hand torches, or one propane and a second hand torch to heat from both directions rather than going in with a bigger flame, and risking overheating.

Patstone
05-11-2011, 08:47 AM
Hi George, I have heard you speak of these T pins before, I think they are a good idea, I must have a look for some next time I go into town. Normally by the time I get back from walking dogs I dont have the energy to go around town as well. Not quite sure where to look for them either, any ideas would be welcome.

Patstone
05-11-2011, 08:49 AM
Can you send me a pic of one with a 5p piece beside it so I know what I am looking for pls.

mizgeorge
05-11-2011, 11:13 AM
These ones Pat:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50-Stainless-Steel-T-pins-Mounting-Stitchwork-/400251039026?pt=UK_Crafts_Knitting_Crochet_EH&hash=item5d30d22d32#ht_3086wt_881

susieq
06-11-2011, 12:06 AM
Thanks for the link for the pins, they look very useful - do you push them down so that the "T" shape rests on the bangle to anchor it down quite firmly, or just push the straight part of the pin against the side of the bangle to stop it from expanding and moving?

Susie

mizgeorge
06-11-2011, 12:31 AM
Thanks for the link for the pins, they look very useful - do you push them down so that the "T" shape rests on the bangle to anchor it down quite firmly, or just push the straight part of the pin against the side of the bangle to stop it from expanding and moving?

Susie

both, depending on the application, but most often the latter.