Cutting repetitive shapes from sterling sheet

[emroyjewels]

Hi guys, sorry I need to pick your brains! I know what I want to do, but am not sure the best way to go about it - so apologies in advance for rambling.

I'd like to be able to cut repetitive shapes in silver (up to 0.8mm probably) and am trying to work out the best way to go about it, i.e. what tool would I get the most efficiency out of.

Having done lots of reading, I think I've decided pancake / shearing dies are the best method i.e. easiest and a relatively cheap investment. But to be honest I'm completely confused about what I need - some recommendations for an arbor press, others a hydraulic press. If I use an arbor press would something like this 1 ton (http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/1-ton-arbor-press/path/hydraulic-presses) version do it? The hydraulic presses seem to be much more powerful, but I'm not sure I need that much pressure for this purpose!

What I don't want to do though is buy a press that will be great for this job, and not versatile enough for other uses. Learning as I go with no proper training means I've never used a press before, so I don't know exactly what I would want to do with it yet. So I guess my question is two fold

- would the press indicated above be man enough for the job I currently have planned for it

and second - if you have a press, what do you use it for and do I need something more powerful to allow me to grow or will this be plenty powerful enough for a variey of uses?

During my research I also saw the RT blanking system, but am hopeless at sawing, so am not sure this would be of any use to me - hence getting someone to create custom pancake dies for me instead. I don't think you can bash the shapes out of these with a hammer, which is why I'm looking for a press, but please tell me if I'm wrong!

:ta: in advance xx.

[Joe]

Hydraulic presses are slow to use - perhaps a minute per pressing - but are very controllable for forming metal. With the right press tool you may be able to cut several pieces at once in a stack.

The little arbour press you pointed at is very quick and easy to use but it's not that easy to get a lot of pressure through it - I would guess that small shapes (perhaps 10mm in diameter) might press easily enough out of 0.8mm silver but you'd have a job getting 30mm shapes to cut. There are larger versions of this type of press that might do.

The standard in small workshop presses is the fly-press (No. 4 Fly Press / Hand Press on eBay (end time 11-Sep-10 19:48:04 BST) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/No-4-Fly-Press-Hand-Press-/270629803103?pt=UK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Weldin g_Metalworking_Supplies_ET&hash=item3f02cb145f)).

This is quick and has considerable strength but there is a knack to using them and they can be a bit dangerous without training; they rely on building a bit of momentum in the heavy steel balls that fly round and impart their energy into the cutting action.

I don't think I'm helping here.... my best guess is that "none of the above" are quite right...

[caroleallen]

When I bought my RT blanking system from Walsh's I also bought a flatting press Flatting Press (http://www.hswalsh.com/Flatting_Press_.aspx?i=TF54&c=193)
It worked very well. I now have an hydraulic press as well, but the flatting press is good enough. I use the flatting press for flattening lots of things and it's one of my most used pieces of equipment.

You do have to be good at sawing though, so maybe you need to pay someone to do your blanks for you.

[Goldsmith]

I bought the equipment for blanking out shapes when I used to make badges and medals by the hundred. I used a fly press quite successfully when blanking out 1mm thick silver, but you will need to buy Die Sets. These are tools that keep the blanking tool and cutting die inline when using a fly press. You will get much more pressure from a fly press than an arbor press

[Joe]

Have a look at this: JEWELLWERY FLY PRESS WITH 100'S OF PRESS TOOLS on eBay (end time 12-Sep-10 21:02:45 BST) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/JEWELLWERY-FLY-PRESS-100S-PRESS-TOOLS-/150488502268?pt=UK_Crafts_JewelleryMaking_GL&hash=item2309d04ffc)

Might be just what you're after with a bit of luck!

[emroyjewels]

Thank you all for the advice! I'm now definitely more confused than ever, but in a good way:Y:

That listing on ebay looks like it includes way more stuff than I could have ever imagined needing or using, but that's not neccessarily a bad thing hehe.

Carole - your suggestion for a flatting press I assume requires that I have the RT blanking system as well, rather than that I use the pancake dies with it, am I right?

Joes suggestion of "flying steel balls" sounds rather scary to me, but its not worth me buying an arbor press that will only do the current task and not be of any use for anything else.

I guess I need to do some more research - and save some more money!

[Joe]

The flatting press is a general purpose tool - in fact it's a small arbour press with a flat anvil end for, well, flattening things. A few months ago our most excellent Dennis recommended that one could use a ring stretcher for the same purpose: http://www.cooksongold.com/forum/tutorials-bench-tips-step-steps/2890-tour-around-ring-stretcher.html.

The fly-press is the "standard" tool for this sort of thing. I strongly recommend that you don't try to teach yourself how to use it - lost fingers and fly-presses go hand in maimed hand!

Where ever you live there will be a small engineering works nearby, tucked into some tin-roofed garage like building in a small corner of almost every big residential or industrial estate... I find the people who work in these are almost all incredibly friendly and willing to give you ten minutes of their time as a distraction from their work. Seek one out and ask them to show you their fly-press. Wear something that will look good with black grease on it!

[Dennis]

I think the fly press must be the clear winner, but health and safety must be strictly adhered to. Being absent minded, they have always scared the wits out of me.
Is there any chance of your farming this job out to said engineering workshop, or willing jeweller? Kind regards, Dennis.

[caroleallen]

Thank you all for the advice! I'm now definitely more confused than ever, but in a good way:Y:

That listing on ebay looks like it includes way more stuff than I could have ever imagined needing or using, but that's not neccessarily a bad thing hehe.

Carole - your suggestion for a flatting press I assume requires that I have the RT blanking system as well, rather than that I use the pancake dies with it, am I right?

Joes suggestion of "flying steel balls" sounds rather scary to me, but its not worth me buying an arbor press that will only do the current task and not be of any use for anything else.

I guess I need to do some more research - and save some more money!

If you've got some other way to make pancake dies, then you don't need the RT blanking system but other than the very expensive version that Rio Grande sell, I don't know of another way.

[Shaun750]

These guys make simple stamping dies.I have never used them ,but have been recommended by someone I trust.
Sheltech - Custom Dies and Cutting (http://www.sheltech.net/home.html)
I went on a little journey trying to make stamping dies and gave up.I get the feeling it's a bit of a waste of time,because no one is actually using them.If it was worth while,then there would be a few on here,showing us the latest die they had made,rather than saying they used to use them.
Before i gave up though I bought a 20 ton car jack to make a press.I need a cheap length of RSJ before i can proceed with that. I've also got one of those 1 ton presses as well,and have never really used it.I suppose if i actually bolted it down to something that would move,it might be of some use?
I'd be tempted with that fly press and tooling,but it's way to far,they must weigh a ton as well.

[Goldsmith]

Emma, May I ask a couple of questions, what type of shapes are you needing to cut multiples of and how many would you need at any one time?

[emroyjewels]

Shaun - that's exactly who I had found to make the dies, which led me on a long search for a way to cut them/ use them. I'm amazed there isn't a simple, affordable solution.

I'm afraid anything dangerous is out - too much of a scaredy cat for a fly press me-thinks. Will have to think again about whether to sub them out our buy a relatively cheap hydraulic press since the arbor press looks like it might not be powerful enough.

I am however now in love with the Bonny Doon after watching the videos on rio grande. Carole - what have you done to me!!!:'(

[emroyjewels]

Sorry Goldsmith - we must have posted at the same time! (takes me ages to write). At the moment nothing fancy - some rounded corner squares and hearts in 30s-40s. But, that's just the immediate requirement, so I am looking for a tool that will let me grow as I learn new things, rather than just a way to get those components. (I currently buy them in from the States, but am trying to be more self-sufficient!)

[Goldsmith]

Emma, I only bought my flypress because I was making items of 500 of the same shape. If you are only wanting 30s or 40s, I would advise getting some experience in using a piercing saw. At a guess it would only take me about an hour to pierce out 40 hearts from 0.8mm. silver. As for the squares I would invest in a bench shear, cut out the squares and just round off the corners with a file, or just use a piercing saw for cutting them, as before 40 would be less than an hour's work. You would have to want to cut out many hundreds to warrant the cost of a press set up.
As you will probably guess, I am in favour of promoting hand work at the bench, I have an album on this site if you have not already seen my work.
Cheers, Jim (goldsmith)

[emroyjewels]

Thanks Jim. I agree - sawing is probably something I should learn but at the moment the time required to learn (based on my apalling skills!) is not viable.

Apologies if it looks like a silly question - as I said the immediate requirement is for about 30- but over a year I'd expect to use 150+ of them. So any investment in kit would be for the long term and it's money I'm happy to spend if it means I don't have to sit sawing manically. My time is better used elsewhere, since whenever I saw I just end up topping up my scrap pot. (V fine line between artistically handmade and the rubbish my sawing churns out!)

I buy the shapes from the states at the moment, but was hoping there was an easy way to create them myself. Pancake dies looked like the way to go, and I was just looking for a tool to use them in. I'm surprised to learn it's not that simple, buy hey-ho I'll keep looking.

Love the gallery by the way - inspirational!

[caroleallen]

Shaun - that's exactly who I had found to make the dies, which led me on a long search for a way to cut them/ use them. I'm amazed there isn't a simple, affordable solution.

I'm afraid anything dangerous is out - too much of a scaredy cat for a fly press me-thinks. Will have to think again about whether to sub them out our buy a relatively cheap hydraulic press since the arbor press looks like it might not be powerful enough.

I am however now in love with the Bonny Doon after watching the videos on rio grande. Carole - what have you done to me!!!:'(

The Bonny Doon is the most amazing piece of kit but, as you know, you'll still need pancake dies to cut them out. You could always try getting your pieces etched out, which is what I do now. Good luck with it all Emma. Let us know what you decide to do.

[Shaun750]

I'd agree with Goldsmith to a certain extent,I went into an experiment with stamping dies,just cos I needed to make 25 repeatable shapes.Waste of time really,but it's just a thing I do,I start a job and have to invent something while I'm at it.

If you put your mind to it and just got stuck in, the shapes would be cut in a day,you wouldn't have spent all the money on buying and time learning to use the equipment,and you'd be a much better at cutting.There is no course can teach you that,just hours of following a line.
It's all down to price,maybe if you work out what you will save if you make them yourself,it will give you incentive to cut them with a smile on your face,or think.That's a waste of time and be happy to buy them.
Hate paying for anything!

[mizgeorge]

I have to agree with Jim. The setup costs for stamping your own are really high for the numbers you're talking about, so it would take a long time to get a return on that investment. Cutting them yourself is far easier than you think -get yourself a Knew Concept saw (which Palmer Metals are now stocking) and you'd be surprised how quickly you'll get the hang of it. Even in my dreams, I'm so far from being in Jim's league that I can't even imagine it, but I'd have no trouble cutting those sorts of numbers in a day. And with a bit of careful layout, you'll find you have a lot less scrap left than you would if you stamped them.

[daisychain]

I do agree with Jim and George that improving your sawing and piercing skills will help you no end - it doesn't take long to pick up speed and still be neat and accurate with a bit of practice. The trick with sawing is to take your time and don't put pressure on the blade - let the blade do the work for you.
Having said that, Dar at Sheltech has made some dies for me for some of the more complicated shapes I use a lot in my made-to-order jewellery, and I love them. I cut them out with a bench press that I got cheaply through ebay. Dar is great to work with, and there is actually very little waste using the dies, no more than if I was cutting them out by hand, now that I've got confident with the system. I did look into buying the RT blanking system myself but decided to use Dar's expertise instead. It has definitely been worth my while money-wise.
By the way, I also use the bench press to make some 3D shapes using press forming blanks I have cut myself.

[Shaun750]

I do agree with Jim and George that improving your sawing and piercing skills will help you no end - it doesn't take long to pick up speed and still be neat and accurate with a bit of practice. The trick with sawing is to take your time and don't put pressure on the blade - let the blade do the work for you.
Having said that, Dar at Sheltech has made some dies for me for some of the more complicated shapes I use a lot in my made-to-order jewellery, and I love them. I cut them out with a bench press that I got cheaply through ebay. Dar is great to work with, and there is actually very little waste using the dies, no more than if I was cutting them out by hand, now that I've got confident with the system. I did look into buying the RT blanking system myself but decided to use Dar's expertise instead. It has definitely been worth my while money-wise.
By the way, I also use the bench press to make some 3D shapes using press forming blanks I have cut myself.

That's good to know that you actually use dies,and think they are worth while. I'll go back to experimenting with them again one day.

[emroyjewels]

Jo - thanks! I'm very pleased to hear someone else has gone down this route. I got a very reasonable quote from Dar for the pancake dies, but still need an answer to my original question - what sort of press to use?

You said you use a bench press - sorry but can you tell me which one. When I googled "bench press" I got some images of men pushing weights, which whilst nice to look at isn't, (I don't think!) what I am looking for!

I have however sucummbed to peer pressure somewhat and diarised a couple of hours to try some real piercing this weekend, but it's never going to be feasible for me to hand saw these components as they are cheaper to buy from my current supplier than the cost of my time to pierce and finish them. Knew concept saw is still on my list of things to buy, but I really need to fall in love with piercing first, and it falls lower down on my list of current priorities. I guess I'm more of a basher than a piercer. (Please don't hate me for that ;-) ).

[daisychain]

Sorry Emma, I missed that bit out! I've got one of these 6 ton Heavy Duty Hydraulic Bench Press BRAND NEW BOXED on eBay (end time 28-Sep-10 16:17:23 BST) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/6-ton-Heavy-Duty-Hydraulic-Bench-Press-BRAND-NEW-BOXED-/260643446514?pt=UK_Lifting_Moving_Equipment&hash=item3caf8f5ef2) It's easy to use, easys to put together and each part separately isn't too heavy - I've even taken it apart and taken it into college for my classes to use a few times for press moulding!

You are right, to be able to bear cutting out that many shapes again and again you do have to love piercing! If you can do it though it really does make your work so much more versatile. I may have dies to use, but there are always other shapes I want to do! The dies I've got won't pierce out the insides of a shape - although Dar will make those for you as well at a cost! - so I still need to do those by hand.

[emroyjewels]

:ta: muchly Jo - I have had that one on my ebay watchlist for a while, so now I know it will cut the dies it's on it's way into my purchased pile!

[Joe]

Hydraulic presses are terribly tedious!

One spends a long time lining the thing up and then sets-to pumping down the press - between one and five minutes a piece.

I'm a poor excuse for a piercer, but I'd trim out a simple shape of up to 30mm diameter in 5 minutes and need less cleaning up than a pancake die.

With a professional background in metal-working, I do not believe these to be economic solutions for jewellery!

Can someone post the sort of results one gets from these press tools and final, finished result to be sent to clients?

I'm presently building a small-scale casting workshop for my pieces!

[Shaun750]

Hydraulic presses are terribly tedious!

One spends a long time lining the thing up and then sets-to pumping down the press - between one and five minutes a piece.

I'm a poor excuse for a piercer, but I'd trim out a simple shape of up to 30mm diameter in 5 minutes and need less cleaning up than a pancake die.

With a professional background in metal-working, I do not believe these to be economic solutions for jewellery!

Can someone post the sort of results one gets from these press tools and final, finished result to be sent to clients?

I'm presently building a small-scale casting workshop for my pieces!
I'm all for cutting out,but think it's an individual choice what folks prefer to do,cut or ,stamp and file.
I gave up on casting years ago,but would like to see your results.