Art Clay copper....torch firing

[FVT]

I'm in the early days of trying out the new Art Clay torch-firable copper. While things are definately improving and getting better results each time, I'm still not always confident that something is fired enough.

So, my question is: Does anyone have any good tips for ways to tell if something is fired for long enough? I've had one experience already of drilling a hole in a pendant, which then broke easily into two pieces and was still crumbly on the inside. I don't want to risk breaking everything I make #-o

Thanks in advance :)

[MuranoSilver]

The only reasonably reliable way is to make test pieces and fire them for the same time (use a timer)
The test piece needs to be of the same thickness as your beautimous piece
Nic x

[FVT]

Thanks for the reply Nic. It's been hard getting opinions on torch firing this new copper clay. Early days I guess. I see what you're saying about making test pieces....but as I am on a tight budget (like most people!) I can't see me making two of everything. So I'm still wondering if there are tell-tale signs on the surface of the fired pieces that give a clue as to whether it's fully fired or not.

Last night I fired a couple of pieces for a second time...and re-pickled and brass-brushed. I am relying mostly on the sound of the piece when I drop it gently onto a ceramic or glass surface...listening out for a certain 'chink' sound! [-o<

F.x.

[MuranoSilver]

Nope there are no exterior signs to see whether the piece is fully fired.
The only other alternative would be to drill a hole in an inconspicuous place
(you could always fill n fire it if needed)
Nic xx

[Wendy Moriarty]

Hi
I was told on the pmc begginers course that it has to be kiln fired to be strong enough and that I'd been 'marketed' into thinking I could torch it ( I bought the best torch I coud afford £45 as well), but we did torch fire one piece and it was 2 mins after it started to glow dull peachish red colour, that was silver clay so I don't know if it's the same with other clays. I bought a kiln for mine, I found a little new one on ebay for£140 inc del so I went for it, I don't want to eventually sell something that's not up to scratch. It would be interesting to know if torching is ok or if I've just been marketed again!

[MuranoSilver]

The appropriate answer is that torching can be OK however
in reality the pieces are often underfired as people either dont fire hot enough or long enough.
We were shown fast torch firing once involving a HUGE blowtorch and taking the Silver Clay
to melting point ~ the silver went shiny on the surface (i.e just before melting)
This takes major torch control though and would result in a few melted pieces....

Another (more significant) problem with torch firing is that you're so close to the piece
and most people don't have extraction hoods. Breathing in burn off fumes is not a great idea as
burning metal clay binder is a respiratory irritant :(

Nic x

[vsilvered]

Nic, I want to thank you so much for this post!

I was beginning to think I was the only person in the UK who believes that torch firing/short firing metal clay is inadequate for producing a durable, stable metal that can be worked just like traditional sheet/wire and that choosing to breathe combustion fumes is unacceptable.

[Dennis]

As I was kiln-less, I experimentd with this in the late ninetys when PMC first appeared. In fact I thought I'd invented the method... The time recommended then for kiln firing was 15 minutes at 800 degrees C. It worked OK, but I soon realised that staring at red hot metal could seriously damage your eyes and you would need protective goggles. For my next effort I tried the enamellingt kiln at college, But the thermostat was not great, so a half day's work ended up as a puddle. Well, oldies will reminisce. D.

[MuranoSilver]

Vi - I fire in a kiln at 890 or a little bit higher for 2 hours and frequently bash up my silver
It's not quite as strong as standard FS sheet/wire but it's not far off :)
When the Kilns full the fumes are very strong and I always ensure full ventilation and am never in the
room during burn off.
For some folks e.g. Asthmatics or Pregnant ladies I'd advise them not to torch fire at all!
(or maybe take a break entirely in the early months)
Dennis - I love your creative use of what you've got to hand to make the perfect
doohickey for whatever you're making :)
Nic x

[vsilvered]

Vi - I fire in a kiln at 890 or a little bit higher for 2 hours and frequently bash up my silver
It's not quite as strong as standard FS sheet/wire but it's not far off :)
When the Kilns full the fumes are very strong and I always ensure full ventilation and am never in the
room during burn off.

Nic, I'm with you all the way!

I fire everything at 1650 deg F for a full 2 hours and bash my work with a hammer/mallet to work harden the pieces.

I actually have my kiln in a separate room to where I do my bench work. So when I'm firing metal clay, I can still work and not have to breath combustion fumes.

Having discovered metal clay, I soon realised that full sintering, or the strength and durability of the metal couldn't be guaranteed using this method when torch firing pieces of different sizes/weights/thickness etc.

Full firing at near fusing temperatures results in a denser material, that can then be subjected to traditional/professional metalsmithing techniques (like work-hardening) to further enhance/finish a piece that will survive for many years.

There are obviously clear commercial reasons why torch firing of metal clay and the use of other metal clay-related products are avidly promoted.

Many thanks to Kate McKinnon for showing me the light. :)

[MuranoSilver]

Kates new DVD comes out in the next week or so - very much looking forward to getting it! :)
Are you going to any of the silver clay conferences this year?

Nic x

[Wendy Moriarty]

Hi and thanks to all,
for clarifying pmc torch/kiln thing, glad I've not wasted my money on the kiln, and feel more confident about temps and times. So far I'm loving the silver clay.
Thanks again Wendy

[vsilvered]

Kates new DVD comes out in the next week or so - very much looking forward to getting it! :)
Are you going to any of the silver clay conferences this year?

Nic x

I've ordered Kate's DVDs as well.. they should be shipping on or around 28th June.. that's next week! Yay!!!!

Alas, I won't be going to any of the silver clay conferences.

[FVT]

I can see everyone's point about kiln firing vs. torch firing. I have, however, started to feel more confident with my copper clay pieces. I've been firing things for a second time, and increased the times by a few minutes or so...and definately need to get that red glow, rather than the dull one people have mentioned.
I am yet to use my mini kiln for any fired clay projects, not sure why, just a bit dubious as it is a cheapy, and has a metal lid on top, and only goes up to about 850/900C. I know this is fine for silver, but not for copper probably.
Here are some recent charms I've made by torch-firing ArtClay Copper :)

[Wendy Moriarty]

your kiln sounds a bit like mine, it was only cheap and its quite small but ok for what I need and my budget (non existent now) I've fired several things in it at 800C (which is the temp the tutor used on the day course I did) for approx 2 hrs and they have all been fine, I'm hoping to get a tumbler next. Good luck with your kiln, I love your leaves, did you mold them yourself? I did some silver ones but painted the leaves with paste and I love the finished result even if somepeople think it's comercial etc.. I was suprised at how difficlt it is to actually do them, requires a lot of patience and dexterity :-)

[Wendy Moriarty]

Can any one give me details of above mentoned dvd it souds interesting but I don't know where to find it, or ifo about it.
Thanks Wendy

[MuranoSilver]

You'll find it here :)
Kate McKinnon Design &mdash; DVD (http://katemckinnon.bigcartel.com/category/dvd)
Nic x

[FVT]

I love your leaves, did you mold them yourself?


Thanks Wendy :) Yes, I made some cardboard templates for the leaf shapes, then used real ivy leaves to press the vein textures onto them, worked better than I thought it would!

I must be daring and start using my kiln, at least for silver clay stuff. I mainly bought it for enameling, but I even use my torch for most of that now too!

[willow]

Hi. I was about to ask a couple of questions regarding Kate Mckinnon's book and dvd, then I came across this thread! this book is revolutionary practically everything that I have been taught about the making of items using metal clay has been contradicted, I don't know what to think now, I knew that some of you fired your clay higher and longer than the instructions recommend, but I didn't understand the reasons behind it.... now that I do, I am wondering if these ideas should be relayed to students in the classrooms?
Nic. I was also wondering what you thought to the idea of using water to condition the clay, do you think it alters the clays strength? and I noticed that Kate uses PMC rather than ArtClay, watching her dvd PMC looks softer than AC. I have never worked with PMC, have you?
Ann :confused:

[vsilvered]

I knew that some of you fired your clay higher and longer than the instructions recommend, but I didn't understand the reasons behind it.... now that I do, I am wondering if these ideas should be relayed to students in the classrooms?

Hi Ann,

You're right.. these ideas should be relayed to students in classrooms!

As mentioned before, I have both of Kate's metal clay (MC) books, and they have completely changed the way I use/handle metal clay.. and it should be a book that all resellers of metal clays should have in stock.

I already had a kiln, as I make rings with MC, so I was used to firing at 1650 deg F for 2 hours. What blew me away was that she could create these amazing structural, stable, professional-looking pieces, with a full 2-hour kiln firing, no need for filing, excessive sanding and just a wash of water for joining dry-built pieces together. But once she'd explained the 'science' behind what she does and why.. it all makes perfect sense (in particular, the bit about work-hardening the metal afterwards).

I have used both Art Clay (Slow Dry) Silver Clay and PMC3. I found PMC3 smoother, softer and easier to work with. Kate's method of storing unused clay (as opposed to cling film as I was taught) is just inspired and has definitely allowed me to work for much longer time periods, without having to resort to rehydrating the metal clay.

Students should have the right to this information, so that they can make informed choices as to how they use this medium safely and effectively to produce stable, durable and professional-looking pieces in metal.

In the next week or so, Kate's launching a new website called 'A Workshop in Fine Silver' to accompany the 4-hour DVD set she's bringing out. The website will be a resource centre with photos, videos, demos and an 'Ask Kate' section where to the best of her knowledge, she will answer questions and help provide solutions to people's metal clay problems .... all for free!

[FiredSilver]

Hi Ann

I am a PMC tutor and also have Art Clay Level 1 certification. When I'm teaching I do tell my students about torch firing versus kiln firing. On the intro class we torch fire pieces so that students can see how it's done because its the way most people start (especially given the cost of a kiln!), but as the others have said, kiln firing longer and hotter than the instructions state gives you a stronger finished piece.

For me PMC is a lot softer than Art Clay, yes you can condition Art Clay with water to soften it but thats an extra thing to do - I'd rather get on with making!! I also find PMC has more elasticity which I prefer. I think using a pack of each brand and seeing which you prefer is definitely the way to go - Coke & Pepsi!!

HTH

Becci

[willow]

Hi Ann,

You're right.. these ideas should be relayed to students in classrooms!

As mentioned before, I have both of Kate's metal clay (MC) books, and they have completely changed the way I use/handle metal clay.. and it should be a book that all resellers of metal clays should have in stock.

I already had a kiln, as I make rings with MC, so I was used to firing at 1650 deg F for 2 hours. What blew me away was that she could create these amazing structural, stable, professional-looking pieces, with a full 2-hour kiln firing, no need for filing, excessive sanding and just a wash of water for joining dry-built pieces together. But once she'd explained the 'science' behind what she does and why.. it all makes perfect sense (in particular, the bit about work-hardening the metal afterwards).

I have used both Art Clay (Slow Dry) Silver Clay and PMC3. I found PMC3 smoother, softer and easier to work with. Kate's method of storing unused clay (as opposed to cling film as I was taught) is just inspired and has definitely allowed me to work for much longer time periods, without having to resort to rehydrating the metal clay.

Students should have the right to this information, so that they can make informed choices as to how they use this medium safely and effectively to produce stable, durable and professional-looking pieces in metal.

In the next week or so, Kate's launching a new website called 'A Workshop in Fine Silver' to accompany the 4-hour DVD set she's bringing out. The website will be a resource centre with photos, videos, demos and an 'Ask Kate' section where to the best of her knowledge, she will answer questions and help provide solutions to people's metal clay problems .... all for free!

Thankyou Vi. and Becci for your replies.

Vi. I am pleased someone feels as strongly as I do about this knowledge being imparted to the students in the classroom, and thankyou for the info. about Kate's new website I will looking out for that.

Becci. I will definately try out PMC, I really don't know why I havn't before now.

Ann

[wheely]

Kate's method of storing unused clay (as opposed to cling film as I was taught) is just inspired and has definitely allowed me to work for much longer time periods, without having to resort to rehydrating the metal clay.

I've always been told cling film too. What's her way?

[willow]

She rolls the clay in her hands to make a smooth ball and puts it in a little plastic container, the type that acrylic paints come in, she say's that the clay keeps workable for longer.

[vsilvered]

Kate's technique involves quickly rolling the clay with very very lightly oiled hands (I just use olive oil, as I use it for cooking anyway and it works) between both hands until you have a perfectly round ball with no cracks, making sure that you apply pressure with both your palms whilst you're rolling, and then placing the ball into one of those small 10ml plastic see-through containers with the hinged snap-on lids. I got mine from PAJED for about 24p each, but you may be able to get them cheaper elsewhere. The containers are small enough to hold 25g of metal clay and are airtight so the clay stays fresher for longer. :)

The key thing is being quick, and applying enough pressure so that the surface of the ball is round and continuous with no cracks where air can get in and dry it out.

[wheely]

cheers guys

[madamcc]

This is all fantastic information, I have just started using copper clay, but had some trouble torch firing it, no probs with silver art clay, but now armed with lots of info to go and try again. thanks, these forums are essential.