Is there a market for....

[MIKRON]

Hi,

My name is Gregory and I am in a position to manufacture hardened steel high precision disc cutter type punches for sheet metal, my question is how interested would the jewellery making community be in SHAPED punches?

Think of the disc cutter set you can buy from Cookson, except in shapes instead of circles.

I could offer a set for different sized hearts, another set for different sized stars, flowers etc. Or alternatively a set featuring all different shapes of a similar size.

Most basic shapes would be possible.

I appreciate your time and feedback.

Gregory

P.S. I appologise if this kind of market research is not allowed on this forum or if I have placed this post in the wrong category.

[caroleallen]

I think if you could make them reasonably priced, we'd be biting your hand off!

[Dennis]

I would go for five pointed stars for myself. But why not ask Cooksons who have a huge customer base. Dennis

[Gemma]

Sounds interesting

[MuranoSilver]

Hearts, flowers, stars they'd all be fabulous!

[Emerald]

I think if you could make them reasonably priced, we'd be biting your hand off!

ditto to that

the other thing i would love is something that would form a heart like the lampworkers use i have been tempted to buy one to see if it will work

http://www.bavarianbeads.com/product_info.php?products_id=337&osCsid=rnvevsf1jmnubsieghafnn7ct6

[Emerald]

Oh and where are you based Gregory

[jille]

they sound great to me, all depends on price tho
jill

[MIKRON]

Thanks for all your input so far, it is all very valuable.
I thought shaped punches would be useful to jewellery makers and there doesn't seem to be anyone making them for sale anywhere online as far as I can tell.

As for prices, I haven't begun to price things yet, however if there was enough interest I'm confident I could deliver a high quality punch set closer in price to the "economy" punches rather than the very expensive "premium" punches available.


Oh and where are you based Gregory

I'm based in Scotland about 20 miles West of Aberdeen in a town called Banchory.





the other thing i would love is something that would form a heart like the lampworkers use i have been tempted to buy one to see if it will work



I think your options for this would be casting, or using a powerful hydraulic press (I'd say 100ton+ - this would depend on the heart size) with some fancy tooling (more mass production). If you were casting I don't think it would be hard to machine a two sided mould similar to that in your link, I think a good grade graphite (zero risk of contaminating your silver/gold - and it would release from the mould easily) would work very well for that (not the same type of graphite used widely in crucibles for jewellery, that graphite is low quality and easily damaged). I'd need to look into it but this is something I could manufacture if there was sufficient interest.

[Emerald]

I think your options for this would be casting, or using a powerful hydraulic press (I'd say 100ton+ - this would depend on the heart size) with some fancy tooling (more mass production). If you were casting I don't think it would be hard to machine a two sided mould similar to that in your link, I think a good grade graphite (zero risk of contaminating your silver/gold - and it would release from the mould easily) would work very well for that (not the same type of graphite used widely in crucibles for jewellery, that graphite is low quality and easily damaged). I'd need to look into it but this is something I could manufacture if there was sufficient interest.


thank you, i will carry on free forming lol

[Lisa Quinn]

I think if you could make them reasonably priced, we'd be biting your hand off!

Absolutely agree with that sentiment.

[Arthren]

I would be interested in a custom punch, the shape is a triangle, but I have specific requirements on the degrees of the angles and measurements. If you would consider this.

But other than that I am sure you would be onto a winner making some nice shape punches so long as the price was fair :)

Good luck with this venture if you decide to take it up.

All the best

Arthren

[lesley]

I like the idea of a flower shape and a rugby ball/oval. I can't believe no one else has thought of this.

[disorganised]

I'd be interested in flower shapes of different sizes & number of petals, and different sizes of ovals/elipses too. Also big circles - 20mm up to, say, 40mm.

[daisychain]

Absolutely agree with that sentiment.

Me too! You could be on to a winner here!

[MIKRON]

I would be interested in a custom punch, the shape is a triangle, but I have specific requirements on the degrees of the angles and measurements. If you would consider this.

But other than that I am sure you would be onto a winner making some nice shape punches so long as the price was fair :)

Good luck with this venture if you decide to take it up.

All the best

Arthren

Thank you.

Custom punches could be made no problem and would be welcomed. There would be a small premium involved for the additional work involved in generating machine code based on the design.

I have a set of circle cutters which i have used in the past. Striking the punch with a hammer works well however I always thought in an ideal world you would have a set up where you had a long lever which you pressed down which lowered the punch into the die and cut out your shape or circle, the punches used would be interchangable in the lever mechanism. The advantage here is that as you raised the lever, the punch would be lifted and released from the sheet metal and you could punch another shape right away, not to mention the whole operation would be silent. This would be overkill for cutting the odd shape or circle however if you have to do 50, 100 etc I think a set up like this would be useful and probably reduce the time involved by half.

Any thoughts?

[ps_bond]

...I always thought in an ideal world you would have a set up where you had a long lever which you pressed down which lowered the punch into the die...

An arbor press, for example?

[MIKRON]

An arbor press, for example?

Yeah, you got it, now why didn't I just describe it simply like that?! However, the main advantage to what I'm suggesting is the punch would be essentially fixed to the ram, so upon raising the ram, the punch would be released and raised out of the sheet metal without manually pulling out the punch every time by hand. The punches would have to be specifically designed to be attached to the ram, this is not easily possible with punches currently available.

Perhaps I'm trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist?! I just remember cutting out about 100+ circles one day for a little project and thinking there has to be a faster way! You are the experts here so you keep me right.

[ps_bond]

Yeah, you got it, now why didn't I just describe it simply like that?!

Cos there's a lot of people here might not know what an arbor press is :)

Mine is only a 2T - so you're not going to get enough force to shear anything large. But... There is a 3/8" hole & a grubscrew in the end of the ram, so I can & do bolt dies into it.
There's also a 20T hydraulic press on the market that you can bolt tooling to (the Bonny Doon press). Not all that many in the UK though; I only know of one member here who has one.

Keeping the punch & die aligned interests me... The only easy way I can think of is to have an outrigger with an alignment pin.

[Emerald]

Thank you.

Custom punches could be made no problem and would be welcomed. There would be a small premium involved for the additional work involved in generating machine code based on the design.

I have a set of circle cutters which i have used in the past. Striking the punch with a hammer works well however I always thought in an ideal world you would have a set up where you had a long lever which you pressed down which lowered the punch into the die and cut out your shape or circle, the punches used would be interchangable in the lever mechanism. The advantage here is that as you raised the lever, the punch would be lifted and released from the sheet metal and you could punch another shape right away, not to mention the whole operation would be silent. This would be overkill for cutting the odd shape or circle however if you have to do 50, 100 etc I think a set up like this would be useful and probably reduce the time involved by half.

Any thoughts?

Gregory have you seen the Swanstrom Disc cutter they only sell it in America Swanstrom Disc Cutter Set (http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/ProductPage.aspx?assetname=112509&page=GRID&free_text%7c1274380449714=swanstrom&first_answer=61) and then this guy on Ebay does one i presume from India 10 EXTRA LARGE CIRCULAR DISC CUTTER TOOL 2MM - 31MM SET on eBay (end time 22-May-10 13:44:16 BST) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290417283916&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT) but half the price

[emroyjewels]

Add me to the list as an interested party! I'd love some heart cutouts, but could easily be persuaded to go for other shapes too!

Em

[MIKRON]

Keeping the punch & die aligned interests me... The only easy way I can think of is to have an outrigger with an alignment pin.

Yeah, just think the assembly of your basic disc cutter but with the ability fix the base in place and and attatch the punch to the ram.


Gregory have you seen the Swanstrom Disc cutter they only sell it in America. and then this guy on Ebay does one i presume from India but half the price

Yeah I have seen this cutter set, I'd be interested to know if anyone here has used it? I'm wondering how useful in practice the spring loaded clamping lever used for pressing in place the sheet metal really is. It is something I could incorporate into the punches but it would add to the overall price. Any thoughts on this?

[Emerald]

Yeah, just think the assembly of your basic disc cutter but with the ability fix the base in place and and attatch the punch to the ram.



Yeah I have seen this cutter set, I'd be interested to know if anyone here has used it? I'm wondering how useful in practice the spring loaded clamping lever used for pressing in place the sheet metal really is. It is something I could incorporate into the punches but it would add to the overall price. Any thoughts on this?

there are a few on the otherside who have and love it, Mizgeorge for on.

[caroleallen]

I like the Swanstrom one but only because it cuts larger discs. I find the handle gets in the way a lot, so don't really rate it.

[HannahJewelleryDesigns]

I would be very much interested- especially if it would cut polypropylene sheet too. Dunno if thats possible with a cutter or if I have to get it laser cut after all- just trying to find a cheaper alternative!

[Jayne]

Something like the Swanstrom that could produce a variety of shapes would be v interesting, esp custom ones :)
J x

[annie cracknell]

I was only today thinking how much i would like an oval cutter; please email me if you start making these tools! anniecracknell@gmail.com
thanks

[jille]

I'm with jayne on this one, please let me know if you make them
Jill

[allyclaret]

Hey Mikron - was wondering if there was any development with your punches? Please can you add me to your list f interested people?!
Cheers, Ally

[lynnm]

Just wanted to say 'Good Luck' with your new venture and I would be interested to!

[London Jewellery School]

I think it would be quite specialist, but there would definitely be interest - as you can see from the posts :)

[Neve]

I'd be interested, if the price was right! Are you in a position to manufacture stamps with shapes and letters on too? The ones I have seen are way over budget...

[MIKRON]

Hey,

Just in case anyone is interested, this project will be going ahead. I appreciate everyone's input. I'll post a link to the website once it is online in the next couple of months.


I'd be interested, if the price was right! Are you in a position to manufacture stamps with shapes and letters on too? The ones I have seen are way over budget...

Perhaps you could post a link to an example product? I will be doing hardened steel letter punch sets in different fonts.

Gregory

[abyjem]

I'm another one who would be very interested when you have them in production. I was searching the net last night to see if anyone anywhere did other shapes of punches apart from disks. I can see the potential for all sorts of shapes - squares, rectangles, hearts etc.

Love Banchory - very handy for Lochnagar - I used to live near Strichen and I really miss Scotland

[yamarat2]

I would be interested too! Is this what you were talking about? If you could do it for cheaper than this, that'd be awesome!
http://www.pjtool.com/impressart-metal-stamps.aspx
yamarat

[stu_clouds]

Who on the forum has a bonny doon? I am getting very tempted and would just like to ask a few questions.

Regards

Stuart

[ps_bond]

Caroleallen has one IIRC; I've built a lighter-weight one (only 10 ton on it) - keep meaning to get around to building a full size one that will take the standard accessories.

[Goldsmith]

I have a Hunton press tool outfit, this tool is a frame that holds various size disc cutting dies and punches which allows me to cut discs up to 2 inch diameter, just using a simple fly press, tool makers will make any shape blanking out tools you need, but I could see an opening for someone who dedicates their die sets to the jewellery trade. I also have a box full of various cutting dies of different shaped watch case and bracelet shapes, there are a few companies that will make press tools to order, like Brennen, see; http://www.brennan-tools.co.uk/
Cheers, James

[lorraineflee]

I've got a dental prosthetics hydraulic press - I want to be able to do anticlastic bangles on it - not sure if it's possible to use the Bonny Doone sets on it without their fixtures though. Anyone got any ides?

LOrraine

[caroleallen]

You don't have to have a Bonny Doon to use most of the tools. I love my BD but it was a lot of money and even more to get it shipped over.

[Joe]

James' Hunton tools (http://www.hartleige.com/product/flypress-bolster-outfits-and-tooling) are the BK (Bees Knees - hey, old people should be allowed acronyms too!). But at £300 for the holder and £100 for each round cutter, they make Swanstroms look like they belong in Poundland! They are not suitable for platforms like BonnyDoon, they rely on proper clamping tables for alignment between stock and die. But they are exactly the right tool for the job.

But James has a very strong point - for the cost of a BonnyDoon, you could buy a fly press, a small Hunton outfit and a few punches.

I don't really understand the BD philosophy, it's the wrong thing whatever your budget... why not just buy a simple 10T hydraulic press for a couple of hundred quid from Machine Mart? I use mine for quite a number of things. You don't need 20T to cut 2mm silver - that's 5mm stainless steel territory! If you've got $1000 burning a hole in your pocket, a fly-press is the tool you want, not a BD! Unless you have Peter's skill to lash one up of course!

[Goldsmith]

Joe, when I bought the Hunton kit, I was making regalia orders so I needed quality tools to cut discs. If you can imagine making 500 medals / badges, each with a circular domed back that screwed in place, then the Hunton and it's tools paid for itself very quickly and it's quality of build means that it is virtually indestructible if used correctly. I bought my Norton flypresses from a local second hand machine tool dealer, I bought two sizes a 3 and a 6 for less than £300 and they were delivered. It's amazing what you can buy from these dealers, one company who I regularly check out is http://www.gandmtools.co.uk/ as you can view their catalog online if anyone is interested in buying machine tools, they also have a decent collection of silversmiths tools and work benches at the moment.
James

[stu_clouds]

Will the other presses that are mentioned in this thread allow you to use the bonny doon tools or do the presses you mention have similar tooling options?

regards

Stuart

[stu_clouds]

You don't have to have a Bonny Doon to use most of the tools. I love my BD but it was a lot of money and even more to get it shipped over.

As im wanting to us a press for things including making bangles, pressing designs into silver and also making shapes ideally with the sillouette dies that bonny doon make, as i no other press seems to have the tooling for all these processes in one i will probably have to go with a BD. Carole do you have a rough idea of how much it costs to get shipped?

regards

Stuart

[ps_bond]

Will the other presses that are mentioned in this thread allow you to use the bonny doon tools or do the presses you mention have similar tooling options?


Susan Kingsley's book describes the fitting in the back - I'll go look it up shortly. The biggest difference that I can think of is that the hydraulic press makes for very repeatable deformation through the use of the pressure gauge - although my use of flypresses has been limited to fairly unsubtle forging (poor man's power hammer).

[Joe]

I've used a flypress for planishing and bending (with a V former). I suspect you could use it for more complex forming, but I've never tried.

This cheap hydraulic press (http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/csa10b-10-ton-workshop-bench-press) is only £240 - a third of the cost of a the Bonny Doon even before shipping! Looks like the BD tools require a single bolt hole in the top plate - a 10 minute task at any engineering works.

The BD has return springs which will make the ram return quicker and a wide top plattern which may make the tool more stable. It's clearly better but...

[caroleallen]

I can't really remember how much the shipping and import tax was and I think I've deliberately blanked it from my mind! All I remember is that it was a lot of money. As for the tools, most of what I use could be used on any hydraulic press. The only thing that makes some tools only work on the BD is that there's a hole in the top that you push screw fittings into. I'm sure it's possible to make such a hole in other presses.

[stu_clouds]

I just found this 20 Ton Jewelry Press (http://www.potterusa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=90&category_id=11&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53) I know its still in the US, its $200 cheaper than to BD it takes the BD tools also it has a bracelet forming kit for alot less than BD. It appears BD is the designer brand with the designer price and i guess its the original so they deserve to charge it (maybe).

Im just checking with them to see if the their shipping costs are less.

What do you all think?

Stuart

[Myosotis]

I just found this 20 Ton Jewelry Press (http://www.potterusa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=90&category_id=11&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53) I know its still in the US, its $200 cheaper than to BD it takes the BD tools also it has a bracelet forming kit for alot less than BD. It appears BD is the designer brand with the designer price and i guess its the original so they deserve to charge it (maybe).

Im just checking with them to see if the their shipping costs are less.

What do you all think?

Stuart

I've been looking at these guys as well as, like you say it will take the BD tools and also they have a good range of pancake dies and individual silhouette dies. Only thing i'm thinking of though when your talking about spending that kind of money, is for an additional $500 instead of the BD Classic you can get the BD Mark III which will do deep draw as well, whereas the Potter one doesn't seem to have that ability.

Would be interested to know what the shipping cost is though.

Something else to consider when buying from US isn't just the shipping charges - I recently bought some tools from the US and had to go to the depot and pay customs charges as well before they would release them. Can't remember how much but I think it was the VAT.

[caroleallen]

It's not sexy like the BD but it would do the job. I don't see why you couldn't do deep drawing with that one, though the equipment you need costs nearly as much as the actual press.

[stu_clouds]

It's not sexy like the BD but it would do the job. I don't see why you couldn't do deep drawing with that one, though the equipment you need costs nearly as much as the actual press.

Well i just tried for a shipping quote from a few US firms with the weight of the press and the figures vary from $600-$1000 oh well haha, lets see what riogrande quote.

Carole, what things do you deep draw? the main things i will use the press for are, texture,the bracelet formers and silouette dies.

regards

Stuart

[Joe]

All "deep drawing" requires is a hydraulic arm with longer travel. The tiny bottle jacks that the bonny doon use are in the £20 range. A long travel 20T jack is about £85.

These tools are massively over-priced. You could have them custom-made for half that.

The cash for the Mk3 would get you this monster of an industrial 50T press (http://www.uktools.com/sealey-yk50fahfp-airhydraulic-press-premier-plus-50tonne-floor-type-with-foot-pedal-p-4032.html) which would crush Bonny Doons into mangled scrap, even before VAT and shipping. They're having a laugh!!

Bonny Doon did not invent the hydraulic press. They are a common part of industry around the world. I suppose they may have invented the forming tools and I've never seen anyone else form into urethane (http://www.directplasticsonline.co.uk/PolyurethaneRod/50mm/). Dunno.

Buy their beautiful clastic and anti-clastic tools and fit them to a cheap hydraulic press and save yourself thousands of pounds!!!

[caroleallen]

Deep drawing is used to form vessels Stu. It's quite a lengthy process as you have to keep drawing and annealing lots of times. You also have to grease the equipment with smelly beef tallow. I'm not sure I like the finished articles, so I don't do it.

[Myosotis]

Deep drawing is used to form vessels Stu. It's quite a lengthy process as you have to keep drawing and annealing lots of times. You also have to grease the equipment with smelly beef tallow. I'm not sure I like the finished articles, so I don't do it.

Hmmm sounds like its not worth the effort for the occasional deep draw I'd want to do (funnily enought the BD brochure didn't mention the dead cow lubricant part!)

The only thing that I'm unsure about is if I buy something like these ones I've been looking at http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/20-ton-hydraulic-press-gauge-20-tonne-/330527714311?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4cf4fcac07 and it turns out I can't use them with the BD or Potter dies then I'll have wasted that money. I've tried to economise like that in the past and sometimes it turn out to be a false economy :-(

[stu_clouds]

All "deep drawing" requires is a hydraulic arm with longer travel. The tiny bottle jacks that the bonny doon use are in the £20 range. A long travel 20T jack is about £85.

These tools are massively over-priced. You could have them custom-made for half that.

The cash for the Mk3 would get you this monster of an industrial 50T press (http://www.uktools.com/sealey-yk50fahfp-airhydraulic-press-premier-plus-50tonne-floor-type-with-foot-pedal-p-4032.html) which would crush Bonny Doons into mangled scrap, even before VAT and shipping. They're having a laugh!!

Bonny Doon did not invent the hydraulic press. They are a common part of industry around the world. I suppose they may have invented the forming tools and I've never seen anyone else form into urethane (http://www.directplasticsonline.co.uk/PolyurethaneRod/50mm/). Dunno.

Buy their beautiful clastic and anti-clastic tools and fit them to a cheap hydraulic press and save yourself thousands of pounds!!!

Joe

i ment they made the tools not the first to make a hydraulic press. Its simple engineering really looking at it. All the presses i find have a small round head (unsure if this is the correct word) where the BD has a flat rectangular head which is obviously safer and easier to use. I guess its a case of going to an engineering company and getting them to build me one.

thanks & regards

Stuart

[Joe]

Sorry Stuart! I didn't mean to be rude - I was taken aback by their shockingly high prices for the part they hadn't invented.

The hydraulic rams have a screw-on piece at the end that can be interchanged, but they seem to vary between manufacturers so they're not standard. You might find one that suits without having to visit a fabrication shop.

Looking at the BD tools, some of them seem to use a quick-release adaptor which ends in just a couple of rods with magnets. Also they say the table is "self-levelling" meaning that it tilts, I guess on a ball joint as used in bottle-jacks for your car - perhaps that's just a car jack under the table? But it might mean that the big plate is no better than a knife-edge for stability.

Now that I look at it, it's a bit of a scary tool! 20T, the tool held on a couple of small magnets and your face close to the head so you can see the deformation of the metal... I wouldn't necessarily want to fill out a risk assessment form on that one! :)

[stu_clouds]

its ok, It is just a car jack under the table, the only part they make is the steel frame to hold the table. I am just going to purchase one in this country, i will be purchasing some of BDs dies and dont think i will have a problem with using a press with a small head.

I agree i will not be looking directly into the press, i have heard stories of things flying out sideways.

[caroleallen]

With the BD the supporting pillars are between you and the platform so there's less likelihood of being hit by anything. I was a bit nervous at first but I've never had anything fly out the side. As long as you only use tools that are made specifically for use in a press, there shouldn't be a problem.

[Joe]

This is quite an interesting page (http://www.cartertools.com/cncjewel03.html) with a picture of a DIY press and some more ideas of dies and press tools that a small engineering company could offer...

[stu_clouds]

Now to find an engineering company to make a frame for me. Does anyone know of anyone?

regards

Stuart