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ps_bond
27-11-2009, 12:01 PM
I've been up to mischief again. It's not exactly silver, but it is smithing...

For those who don't know, mokume gane is generally translated from the Japanese as "wood grain metal", and refers to the lamination and patterning of different metals; one of the more common patterns involves carving through the layers so that the resulting pattern looks somewhat like wood grain. As with pattern welded steel, there's a lot of variations you can introduce into the resulting pattern. Mokume was originally developed in Japan during the Edo period to furnish swords as an echo of the patterns formed by the folding, welding & reforging of the blade steels; as the need for swords declined, so mokume became used for other ornamentation - I was going to say "more ornamental", but if you've seen the swords, they're as much works of art as they are weapons. Fast forward to the late 1800s and the Japan society wrote about a technique they'd observed for silver-soldering a laminate of dissimilar metals - not quite what happens in the traditional process, but it has been extensively used since then (a particular example would be Alistair McCallum's fantastic work).

I use a development on the traditional method, where sheets of *very* clean metal are heated up to a fusing temperature whilst clamped together; I used to use the old method, where the sheets are wired together and placed in the forge, but these days I use 2 slabs of 1/2" tool steel bolted together to hold the sheets in close proximity; as they heat, the sheets will expand, increasing the clamping effort. A new thing for me - this assembly goes into a stainless foil bag along with a spoonful of granulated carbon (to absorb the oxygen) and is heated for a wee while in the kiln.

So, last night I had 14 sheets of 2mm thick 50x50mm squares of copper and brass, cut with a jigsaw as I decided I was bored with cutting that thickness with a jeweller's saw. Each of these was thoroughly cleaned by hand by scrubbing them with a block of pumice and some hot soapy water to remove any oxides; they were then rinsed in distilled water (the dehumidifier paying for itself again), dried carefully and degreased with isopropyl alcohol. At this point, they're so clean that a drop of water will sheet across them rather than sitting as a droplet.

The steel plates and bolt threads were painted with Tippex to prevent adhesion; once this dried, the copper & brass were stacked alternating and clamped between the plates. The bolts have to be done up quite tight; there are some suggestions to use a torque wrench. I painted the stack edges with borax to help scavenge any oxygen; the carbon in the bag helps with the rest of it. The whole lot then went into the stainless bag (be warned - this stuff is *very* sharp, I used to regularly cut myself on the edges) and the edges are double folded & hammered down to set them. Then, into the kiln at 700C (brass & copper) for 8 1/2 hours.

This morning I vented the kiln to drop the internal temperature; once it was down to about 150 I fished the bag out (welding gloves are very useful at times). Snipped the top off and removed the plate, slung the unused carbon and unbolted the plates. Owing to the use of both borax & carbon, the resulting billet is very clean, almost no oxide formation at all. I've forged it down to 24mm so far and the whole thing seems quite solid, no iffy looking areas that look about to delaminate.

The next stage is to grind the edges flush, then I'll flood them with a low temp solder, probably Easyflo (to further discourage delamination) and carry on forging down to sheet. Once it hits 3mm the individual sheets will be about .2mm thick and I can start patterning it.

I'll even take some photos along the way... If you're really lucky, they might even be relevant.

One of the problems I've had with mokume in the past is down to the technical nature of the material; I enjoy making it (time consuming though it is) but once I've got it, what do I do with the stuff? Having been on a silversmithing course recently with Brian Clarke, I've nailed the bits of the basic techniques that were giving me gyp and can progress...

snow_imp
27-11-2009, 12:06 PM
This sounds like an amazingly complex technique, I can't wait to see what you come up with at the end.

Did you teach yourself or did you have a teacher in the art?

ps_bond
27-11-2009, 12:11 PM
Another thing I ought to mention - this process is wasteful of material.

You waste the edges cutting or grinding them off (although the stripy edges can be successfully used too - they can look really nice after they've been through the rolling mill).
You waste more material patterning.
I'll waste more still because I want a round disc, not square; I can control some of that in forging it down, but there will still be wastage.

And sometimes it all goes so badly wrong that you have to give up on the billet (not that I've had that in a long while, thankfully!).

This is the first time I'll be taking proper measurements of waste throughout; I need to weigh the billet before & after grinding. I've factored in somewhere between 25%-50% as wastage, although it should be closer to 25%. I can modify the final design according to the resulting diameter, however.

ps_bond
27-11-2009, 12:14 PM
This sounds like an amazingly complex technique, I can't wait to see what you come up with at the end.

The thing is, it's time consuming more than anything else. I'm holding off saying what it'll be for now... ;)


Did you teach yourself or did you have a teacher in the art?

T'internet...? I first came across the process about 15 years ago, and thought it sounded fantastic - but I'd be unlikely to ever try it... How wrong can you get?!

I've got 3 books and a couple of papers - Steve Midgett's book (not sure if that's in print still), Ian Fergusson's book and the Japan Society's collection of well-meaning treatises on Japanese methods. Other than that, trial and error with occasional feedback from people who do this more than me (James Binnion, for example).

snow_imp
27-11-2009, 12:20 PM
The internet is a great way to find inspiration and knowledge - but I think for now I'll restrict myself to less forge intensive work :)

It puts me even more in awe of you and the others on the forum that do such amazing work when I hear you're self taught.

Di Sandland
27-11-2009, 12:31 PM
Cor, Peter, you disappear for an age (now we know where) and come back with something as fascinating as this.

Look forward to seeing the results of all this work.

ps_bond
27-11-2009, 12:37 PM
Work, mostly. Sapping the will to live and all that.

The course with Brian was only short, more's the pity - but I've made use of the skills quite a bit already, albeit mostly in copper until I'm satisfied enough to make the jump to big bits of silver (or gold, if you're David Huang!). I've just ended up persuaded to use my hammers to make an eductor for fluid mixing for a colleague who makes his own biodiesel - another amusing use of scrap bits of pipe, and he's crossing my palm with copper (HW cylinder ends) in return.

One of these days I want to use 18k coloured golds for mokume. Then I go off the idea when I price the billet!

mizgeorge
27-11-2009, 01:22 PM
Really looking forward to seeing more of this - I'm fascinated by mokume gane, despite a very poor understanding of how it's all done!

Pictures please Peter!

ps_bond
27-11-2009, 01:29 PM
Well, it's really just a case of giving the atoms of the metals a good talking to, and encouraging them to go on exchange trips across the border to see how those differently coloured metal atoms live. I'm trying to do everything possible to facilitate the journeys. Naturally, some of them alloy as a result of their experience.

Come to think of it, that coffee tasted a little odd.

(intermetallic bonding through solid state diffusion sounds a lot less glib though)

I shall sort pics - you know what it's like though, remembering to break off from what you're doing to photo things!

MuranoSilver
27-11-2009, 02:31 PM
I cant wait to see what you make with your Mokume Gane (I adore mixed metals)
nicx

caroleallen
27-11-2009, 07:42 PM
Sounds great. Looking forward to seeing pics.

Lindyloo
27-11-2009, 07:54 PM
Where are those pics? I also don't understand the technique. Can you explain it in laymans terms? I always thought it was something to do with revealing different layers of different metals, but that doesn't sound like it from your very technical explanation.

AlexandraBuckle
27-11-2009, 08:58 PM
:wwopics:

i like getting the chance to use this smiley :)

Emerald
27-11-2009, 09:06 PM
:":


i was always under the impression you already made Mokume Peter, do you on a smaller scale would love to see some of your work if so

ps_bond
27-11-2009, 09:59 PM
i was always under the impression you already made Mokume Peter, do you on a smaller scale would love to see some of your work if so

Yup, I've just never tried taking a billet to this size before. Final size will be about 150x150x1.5mm.

Pics:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2788/4138764517_3b003d51b5.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2620/4138764537_a021bdb0c7.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2533/4138764555_460c37fc15.jpg

What I've not shown is the mishap from this evening... Delamination. It happens sometimes, it's blooming annoying when it does. So, reclean and back in the kiln again; then, only forging it hot. If necessary, I can solder the stack back together; there's no subsequent soldering going to take place so it won't cause any problems.

Emerald
27-11-2009, 10:09 PM
Thats one serious stack Peter cant wait to see the progress of this piece please please please make sure you take photos

Di Sandland
27-11-2009, 10:12 PM
Just hang it on an ear wire and I'll take it. Two would be too much, don't you think ;)

Truly, that is a serious stack - I can't wait to see the layers revealed in all their glory

ps_bond
28-11-2009, 12:09 AM
Where are those pics? I also don't understand the technique. Can you explain it in laymans terms? I always thought it was something to do with revealing different layers of different metals, but that doesn't sound like it from your very technical explanation.

It is indeed down to selectively revealing the layers - it's just that I need to do a bit of work to reach that point.

As for earwires, what's the right size for a 520g lump? I think .8mm might pull straight...

MuranoSilver
28-11-2009, 08:16 AM
Ooooh can't wait to see what you make with that - makes you appreciate the price on the sheet material when you see how much work goes into it...
Even more special when you've created it from scratch though
nic x

AlexandraBuckle
28-11-2009, 10:01 AM
ooh yay! thanks for the pics :)
what are you going to make in into?

Gemma
28-11-2009, 10:09 AM
Wow! Inspiring stuff Peter. Looking forward to seeing more pics

ps_bond
28-11-2009, 05:48 PM
Dear Santa, for Christmas I would like a pony and a power hammer.

The refiring has sorted out the delamination fine (clobbering a billet edge-on is a good potentially destructive way to test this!).

I've changed my mind on hot forging, although it would make more sense in many ways - the metal moves faster, you don't have to keep stopping and annealling and you don't need to wait for the billet to cool before carrying on - you can't really quench mokume billets safely as there's a chance the different expansion rates will delaminate the billet. Basically, I've no room to run a forge safely right at the moment.

The billet has been reduced a bit today; I'm now down to 16mm thick and about 65mm-70mm square - so not that far to go(!). Haven't lost any more material yet, but I am starting to see the copper extruding more than the brass which will contribute to the losses. Despite my hammering it fairly hard, the outer layers tend to move more than the inner ones, so there's a bit of fishmouth happening along the sides. I expected it, even forged a bevel on the edges to try to reduce it but it is still taking place. Annealing is time consuming too... Heating a pound of copper alloy up so it's even is slow going.

Anyway - here's the billet after its first reduction:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2763/4140762951_bc8100679b.jpg

...and an incredibly uninteresting pic of it having just been annealed. You'd see it glowing if I hadn't used the flash.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2612/4140762959_58fdf32aff.jpg

Still holding off on saying what it will be, sorry... ;)

Vivia
28-11-2009, 06:31 PM
What a brilliant project Peter, thank you for posting your work as you go along! I've not heard of the technique before so I'm learning lots... Looking forward to seeing the next stages. :Y:

geti-titanium
28-11-2009, 07:39 PM
Still holding off on saying what it will be, sorry...

Is it an ashtray or paper weight? No, don't tell me yet let me think about it - that's not my final answer!

ps_bond
29-11-2009, 10:17 AM
Probably quite good as a paperweight at the moment.
Less so as it gets thinner though!

When it gets down to its final size, each layer will be in the order of .1mm thick. At the point where I'll start carving it they'll be .2; I'll be able to carve through a max of 7 layers before thinning it the rest of the way. I'd considered leaving one side unpatterned, but it may be too thin for that; if I'd wanted to guarantee that, I should have made the bottom layer much thicker - or I could solder it to a base sheet (not that that would be much fun).

Probably no more pics until I reach 3mm - it's just more of the same.

ps_bond
30-11-2009, 09:14 PM
8.5mm, 85x85mm...
A little bit of delamination at the edge - not unusual; ground back and flooded with solder.

ps_bond
03-12-2009, 09:57 PM
125x125x4.5mm...

One or two more cycles and I can start looking at patterning this. It still feels more like plate than sheet, but I'm going to have to start planishing it more as it gets worked down.

I'd still like a power hammer... There's a nice little one that runs on single phase that a guy in Manchester imports; don't think the neighbours would thank me though.

The Dragon
03-12-2009, 11:00 PM
I'm so tempted to say 'stuff the neighbours'

Haven't got my head around half the stuff you have said (I'm having a senior week) but still want to see how it turns out!

ps_bond
04-12-2009, 10:16 AM
I'm so tempted to say 'stuff the neighbours'

Ach, they don't do nearly enough to annoy me to warrant it :D


Haven't got my head around half the stuff you have said (I'm having a senior week) but still want to see how it turns out!

I'm inclined to be very technical about it, and I'm trying to detail what I'm looking for & at as I go through it. Sometimes I overthink things.

ps_bond
04-12-2009, 11:24 AM
Well, I'm over the worst of it (the initial reduction is usually the most fraught), so as soon as it gets to 3mm I'll clean it and photo before & after initial patterning.

At the very least this should give an idea of what work is involved with this stuff... I've got plans for a large rolling mill (intended for forging) that would probably be quite good for this type of reduction; there's no way my Durston can handle this work. I've already got the turned parts for it, so it may be worth dusting them off and making the rest of the thing up (once I've got the Land Rover running again).

bustagasket
04-12-2009, 11:54 AM
i have never heard of this but then thats not really suprising to me as i know so little, but i am intrigued to know what the end "look" will be, let alone what the finished product will be!

ps_bond
04-12-2009, 12:15 PM
Well, here's some examples:

Art Metal Gallery From Earthshine (http://www.mokume.com/wedding_rings_artgallery.html)
Alistair McCallum , Silver - at Commission a Craftsman (http://www.commissionacraftsman.com/makersportfolio.asp?id=1100)
http://www.orafaabc.com/Layers.mokume.html

bustagasket
04-12-2009, 12:18 PM
Well, here's some examples:

Art Metal Gallery From Earthshine (http://www.mokume.com/wedding_rings_artgallery.html)
Alistair McCallum , Silver - at Commission a Craftsman (http://www.commissionacraftsman.com/makersportfolio.asp?id=1100)
http://www.orafaabc.com/Layers.mokume.html

OMG!!!! Peter now i am totally hooked on this thread!!! What a fantastic range of effects it gives! :ta:

Tigerlily
04-12-2009, 12:23 PM
i have never heard of this but then thats not really suprising to me as i know so little, but i am intrigued to know what the end "look" will be, let alone what the finished product will be!

Me too Su!

OMG not what I imagined at all! How amazing, all the different finshes! Am so excited now to see the end product! *tap tap tapping fingers waiting for the next installment*

xx

ps_bond
04-12-2009, 12:23 PM
Oh yes - and one of mine.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/23/35137175_c82fdc8f51.jpg

Di Sandland
04-12-2009, 12:26 PM
beautiful - you're such a clever old b*gger

bustagasket
04-12-2009, 12:27 PM
oh wow, its unreal. Now stop posting Peter and get on with the new project, i wanna see the next installment!!!

ps_bond
04-12-2009, 12:30 PM
beautiful - you're such a clever old b*gger

:D and we were editing simultaneously... I used the wrong link.

I'd rather be hammering the stuff out now than at work!

Tigerlily
04-12-2009, 12:32 PM
Peter, thats beautiful!

ps_bond
08-12-2009, 09:03 AM
*Finally* has the time to get this to 3mm. I've been sort-of hot forging - annealling but not bothering to wait for it to cool before I start hitting it, so working it down to hot-to-the-touch. I'll start patterning this evening & post some pics; the slab is currently about 145mm square. A couple of cracks have reappeared in the edges of the copper; I'll just burr them out and incorporate them into the pattern.

From here on, I can't be quite as cavalier about knocking this about - all the hammering will need to be a little more constrained so I don't over-thin any areas. Besides, it was getting easier to move as it got thinner.

The Dragon
10-12-2009, 11:36 AM
Peter!

Are there any pictures yet? :camera: I'm dying of curiosity!

:snow::snow:

ps_bond
10-12-2009, 11:59 AM
Part-patterned, annealed and waiting for me to flatten it, hopefully this evening. I might give it a quick wipe with ferric chloride to show the pattern better; one side is the first stage of a random pattern, other side is more stripey.

The Dragon
10-12-2009, 04:02 PM
Oooo sounds very interesting, I keep trying to picture the pattern from your descriptions.

Do you have something specific in mind for the piece when it's finished or is it more of an exercise to try the technique out? There are so many wonderful things you can do with metal but I don't think I have the patience to try some of the things you have done!

:snow:

ps_bond
10-12-2009, 04:03 PM
Oooo sounds very interesting, I keep trying to picture the pattern from your descriptions.

I should have time this evening to flatten it properly. I hope!


Do you have something specific in mind for the piece when it's finished or is it more of an exercise to try the technique out? There are so many wonderful things you can do with metal but I don't think I have the patience to try some of the things you have done!

This is for a specific project, yes ;)

Linked to a recent jaunt to West Dean, as it happens.

The Dragon
10-12-2009, 04:21 PM
This is for a specific project, yes ;)

Linked to a recent jaunt to West Dean, as it happens.


????? I think you're teasing me now ..... I await enlightenment in a few days!

caroleallen
10-12-2009, 07:37 PM
Ooh, I love West Dean. Can't wait to see what you do with it.

The Dragon
10-12-2009, 08:16 PM
If it was the garden at West Dean I definately can't wait, I love gardening it's my other passion, but I suspect it was the collage.

Wrong thread I know but I think another resolution will have to be get out more and be inspired!


:snow::snow:

ps_bond
10-12-2009, 08:59 PM
Not got all that much this evening - sidetracked by chasing around after missing packages. Oh, and getting a new stump for my smaller anvil.

A bit of flattening has gone on, one annealing cycle and a quick rub down with a copper chloride/copper acetate mix to colour it slightly:

Here's the top:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2677/4175299486_0aff3c4aaa.jpg

And the underside:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2688/4175304480_ebedcaa117.jpg

At this point I should probably mention that mokume can be very difficult to photograph. All the pock marks will be forged out later, and there will be more burr work goes in to make the pattern more random. However, the pattern is starting - here's 2 quick shots hand-held to try and demonstrate it (no flash to try and avoid it washing out):

Top:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2494/4174554575_c376bcef8c.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2739/4174549921_39a8aa97cc.jpg

A bit dim, but you can see some areas where I've cut through several layers and flattened it.

(how odd - I can't use more than 4 images - and that includes smilies!)

Gemma
10-12-2009, 09:02 PM
Oooh! Very exciting!! I've only really had experience with mokume gane 'effect' with polymer clay so its great to see the process of the real thing
:ta:

ps_bond
10-12-2009, 09:05 PM
Clay? Is that easier to forge out?

Erm... Hang on, if you can do that with polymer clay, I wonder how compatible the newer copper clay would be with silver clay...?

Nic?!

Di Sandland
10-12-2009, 09:05 PM
that 'radial' effect will be glorious - will it stay like that?

ps_bond
10-12-2009, 09:08 PM
I'll go back in to re-emphasise it a little bit, but mostly I think I like the inside the way it is; there will be more work on the outside to get the pattern decently random and cloudy. The forging is in all directions - my rolling mill isn't wide enough for this - so it'll stay pretty much like that.

Di Sandland
10-12-2009, 09:10 PM
I'm well impressed (as the younger generation would say ;))

Gemma
10-12-2009, 09:12 PM
Clay? Is that easier to forge out?

Erm... Hang on, if you can do that with polymer clay, I wonder how compatible the newer copper clay would be with silver clay...?

Nic?!

Pasta machine is great for 'forging' polymer clay! ;)

Hmm, if the two metal clays are compatible you could get great effects quite simply

The Dragon
10-12-2009, 09:28 PM
Ok how's this for a suggestion!

I have both copper and bronze clay, which fire in a very similar way. I'm going to go back over Peter's notes to see what he did then give it a go with the clays (on a very small scale). Maybe a nice ... well we'll see what it turns out like.

I don't have a pasta machine but I do have a very good rolling pin and plenty of arm muscle so I hope I can get near to ideal.

This was a very bad suggestion to make guys - I'm not going to be able to concentrate at work tmr now!

:snow::snow:

Kalorlo
10-12-2009, 10:18 PM
Peter: It's looking great!

Annie: I'm guessing the texture plate version might work with metal clay? Roll your clay very thin, stack with alternating colours, cut in half, restack, repeat until you think it's enough, then press it onto a texture plate. Remove from the plate and shave off the bumps and the pattern will be revealed.

(If you google 'polymer clay mokume gane' there are tutorials for at least three different ways to get the wood-grain effect - one of them involves transparent clay and inks, so wouldn't be useful for metal clay, but the other two look like they'd work).

ps_bond
11-12-2009, 06:21 AM
Ok how's this for a suggestion!

I have both copper and bronze clay, which fire in a very similar way. I'm going to go back over Peter's notes to see what he did then give it a go with the clays (on a very small scale). Maybe a nice ... well we'll see what it turns out like.

For the first attempt, I'd probably only try for a laminated stack (no patterning) & see how it holds together. 4 layers, for example. Got to be worth a try though!

caroleallen
11-12-2009, 07:24 AM
That sounds like a great way to get the same effect but much easier.

MuranoSilver
11-12-2009, 07:35 AM
Copper & bronze clay work well together but the definition is not as sharp between the two layers. Hadar Jacobsen has some great pictures of Bronze & Copper clays together.
Hadar's Website (http://www.artinsilver.com/whatsnew.htm)
Silver & Copper can be done but the copper has to be pre-fired
Nic x

ps_bond
11-12-2009, 09:20 AM
So you'd still end up having to do all the layer manipulation for the sorts of patterns I'm mucking about with. Perhaps not entirely cost effective for this application then?

Managed to do a bit more patterning this morning; it's looking a lot more random on the outside as a result. Ground back another little bit of delam, bunged some more solder on the edge and left it to cool (shouldn't take long at these temperatures).

My West Dean foray didn't involve the gardens, I'm afraid - didn't have time! It did involve a course with Brian Clarke though...

ps_bond
15-12-2009, 10:07 AM
I now have a disc. It's 2mm thick and 125mm in diameter - and I'm waiting to photograph it as I want a bit of an oxide layer on it before I do so to make the pattern a little more distinct.

I think I still need to go down to 1.5mm for this, so I'll forge it out and true up the circle again tonight; then I can go onto the next phase - which is sinking a bowl. I'm going for sinking rather than raising as a precautionary thing - there's less deformation at the edge than there would be if I raised it, so I'm trying to discourage any further delamination.

Di Sandland
15-12-2009, 10:54 AM
I await with keen anticipation, Peter ;)

ps_bond
15-12-2009, 11:13 AM
You and me both - but my sitting watching it doesn't seem to get it any further (except for the oxidation). :)

ps_bond
15-12-2009, 06:28 PM
The disc:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2570/4188475120_21c71b0bef.jpg

and a close-up on the pattern:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2552/4187713373_f0689f9771.jpg

I might even figure out how best to photograph this stuff one of these days - suggestions are welcome! Highlights wash out the pattern altogether.

Di Sandland
15-12-2009, 06:38 PM
Oh my word, Peter, that is stunning. :Y::Y::Y:

Gemma
15-12-2009, 06:49 PM
:": Amazing Peter

mizgeorge
15-12-2009, 06:59 PM
Oh my!

That's just lovely. I can't wait to see the finished bowl :)

caroleallen
15-12-2009, 07:02 PM
Really lovely and well worth all the effort, though I have to say I'd never have the patience (or muscles) myself.

Lisa Quinn
15-12-2009, 07:20 PM
Wow that is amazing , who would have thought that brick would evolve into something so stunning !

AlexandraBuckle
15-12-2009, 07:28 PM
yes its looking fab!

Lindyloo
15-12-2009, 09:00 PM
That will make a truly lovely bowl Peter

The Dragon
15-12-2009, 10:52 PM
Ahh more beautiful every time I see it, I too am well impressed.

What sort of style were you thinking of for the bowl, I'm guessing it would lend itself to a wide range. I wish I could see it in the flesh I bet it looks ten times better.

:snow::snow:

lorraineflee
16-12-2009, 10:19 AM
Wow, looking forward to seeing the finished bowl!
Lorraine

ps_bond
16-12-2009, 11:24 AM
What sort of style were you thinking of for the bowl, I'm guessing it would lend itself to a wide range.:

It's going to be a hemisphere; haven't yet decided if it will have a flat base or not. I'm also undecided on whether to file the edge plain or add a rim to it; I don't think that caulking the edge would be sensible now - just asking for trouble at this stage.

Di Sandland
16-12-2009, 11:55 AM
I think it would be wonderful without a flat base - more organic somehow.

ps_bond
16-12-2009, 12:01 PM
Ah, but then I get to worry about whether it sits straight or not... I'll make it as a hemisphere, then see if I need to encourage it to sit quietly. If I do flatten the base, it'll only be about an inch in diameter that gets the treatment.

Di Sandland
16-12-2009, 12:22 PM
Ah go on! You are sooo like my OH. I made a hemispherical (very large) bowl some years ago (using Holly). For me the beauty was that it wobbled - it drove him mad!

ps_bond
23-12-2009, 02:04 PM
And finally...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4208201681_2456730bc2.jpg

And the radial pattern:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4066/4208974488_913684f79a.jpg

Just in time, too!

Di Sandland
23-12-2009, 02:15 PM
Peter it is simply beautiful - I hope you are proud. And I really like the difference between the inner and outer surfaces. The radial effect on the inside is a masterpiece (and if it's got a flattened base, you've done that well too ;))

snow_imp
23-12-2009, 02:17 PM
Peter - that bowl is fabulous. It's amazing. I can't say what I mean in words - if you understand what I mean!!

I've never seen anything like it before ... :worthy:

ps_bond
23-12-2009, 02:19 PM
I'm fairly pleased with it, all told; there are a few things I'd do differently next time - not least of which is forging it thinner before working it! I did think the radial pattern was going to be further off-centre than it ended up though.

It goes under a tree tomorrow.

And no, the base is round... Took me a while to get it to sit straight, but it is round!

Di Sandland
23-12-2009, 02:26 PM
And no, the base is round... Took me a while to get it to sit straight, but it is round!

Ah - see knew it made sense :X

Kalorlo
23-12-2009, 02:29 PM
Peter: wow, that's really impressive.

Chameleon
23-12-2009, 02:34 PM
wow that is amazing, very beautiful.

Emerald
23-12-2009, 02:56 PM
That lovely Peter, lucky recipient:Y:

ps_bond
23-12-2009, 03:15 PM
Truly amazing work Peter, I absolutely adore the radial pattern on the inside of the bowl, would it be possible to make Mokume Gane with the radial pattern on both the inside and outside of a bowl?

Yup. It's as easy a pattern as any to do. The biggest problem with deliberate patterns is working out how they'll distort.


Forgive my ignorance but I have only ever thumbed through a Mokume Gane book once in jewellery class many weeks ago but it fascinates me, I really need to look into it in the future. :Y:

Probably Fergusson - very good, but I prefer Midgett. It's very labour intensive, but I do like the results.

bustagasket
23-12-2009, 03:26 PM
omg from the little square block a beautiful bowl gre. Fantastic achievement sir!

mizgeorge
23-12-2009, 03:27 PM
Oh my goodness.
Peter, even by your usual incredibly high standards, you've excelled yourself.

It's jaw-droppingly beautiful. And I'd be over the moon if something like that ever ended up under my tree!

AlexandraBuckle
23-12-2009, 04:03 PM
Peter, its wonderful! Wish it was under my tree :xmaslaugh:

Sunnybank
23-12-2009, 05:21 PM
Exquisite .......

abyjem
23-12-2009, 05:34 PM
Quite brilliant!

Charlotte
23-12-2009, 06:06 PM
Stunning, I love it. Big fan of brass, wish I could create something like that!

Petal
23-12-2009, 06:57 PM
Oh my goodness.
Peter, even by your usual incredibly high standards, you've excelled yourself.

It's jaw-droppingly beautiful. And I'd be over the moon if something like that ever ended up under my tree!

I agree with George. I've got to add is that what you have achieved Peter is simply stunning. That West Dean course has certainly paid dividends already :Y:

caroleallen
23-12-2009, 07:09 PM
Gorgeous. I'd be well chuffed if that was under my tree.

WitchfordSilver
23-12-2009, 10:28 PM
Peter, works of art. what more can you say

Tigerlily
23-12-2009, 11:40 PM
OMG Peter thats amazing!!!! I love the different patterns, you should be very proud!! :Y:

Bigwol
24-12-2009, 12:08 AM
And finally...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4208201681_2456730bc2.jpg


It's a lovely bowl, but it's a bit blotchy - might be better in precious metal - maybe real silver, and perhaps a brushed satin finish would suit it.

MuranoSilver
24-12-2009, 06:20 AM
Oh my goodness that is stunning- Love the difference between the inner and outer surfaces, very effective.
You're going to put it under a tree? Would you like the address of my tree?? :reindeer:
Thanks for sharing the process - twas fabulous
Nic x x

Bigwol
24-12-2009, 08:53 AM
It's a lovely bowl, but it's a bit blotchy - might be better in precious metal - maybe real silver, and perhaps a brushed satin finish would suit it.

Only joking! - seriously it is outstanding - great job. :reindeer:

lorraineflee
24-12-2009, 10:21 AM
Wow, wow and more wow!!!!!

Lorraine

ps_bond
24-12-2009, 10:40 AM
Only joking! - seriously it is outstanding - great job. :reindeer:

I thought you probably were, somehow- it *is* a brushed finish! :D

I needed to knock down the reflective surface a bit before oxidising it - couldn't see the pattern otherwise.

Right, who's going to have a go at doing this next? Maybe starting a little smaller for a first attempt...?

Di Sandland
24-12-2009, 10:50 AM
LOL Peter - it sounds like a Jason job to me

Hart-Star
30-12-2009, 10:11 AM
I am suitably amazed that anyone could come up with such a stunning product, and also be able to bare their soul as it took shape

Top marks

Lindyloo
04-01-2010, 09:54 AM
Been away for a bit, so I'm a bit slow at responding, but I second the wow. That's really lovely Peter. Can't believe all the work that went into it. Is it rude of me to ask what you reckon it would be worth?

ps_bond
04-01-2010, 02:57 PM
Honestly? It depends what the market will bear. There's about 45 hours of work in it, mostly forging it down. The materials cost wasn't terribly high, but even if I'd been using silver the labour would still make up the lion's share of the cost.

I know what a similar size bowl from a known silversmith is priced at; he's (hopefully!) faster and has a reputation to go with it.

Jayne
04-01-2010, 07:43 PM
That is a seriously lovely bit of klobber, Peter.
You could always save it for the next 'Secret Santa' ;)
J x

Ominicci
05-01-2010, 05:26 PM
Peter the bowl is amazing! Thank you for sharing! I think I was burgled as I couldn't find it under my tree...

KTMAY
29-01-2010, 07:21 PM
I can see why mokume gane is so expensive. I shall have up my silversmithing skills before investing in some. The finished pieces I have seen made from this are beautiful. Not sure I have the skill (or patience) to make my own just yet.

Lucy
04-03-2010, 04:39 PM
Cool Topic :)

I haven't read through the whole thread yet but have a quick question.

You mentioned flooding the billet with easy flow solder - I wondered why easy flow? wouldn't that strictly limit any further fabrication you may want to do with the mokume. If you used hard to start with, you could then fabricate the rest of the piece using medium.

ps_bond
04-03-2010, 05:52 PM
The alloy that forms at the boundary of the two metals fusing is too low melting point to really risk hard - and I was only flowing solder on the edge of the billet to help avoid the thing delaminating, nothing more. The edges are pretty much sacrificial anyway, but if they start to go then the resulting crack can propagate quite a long way. There's no solder left by the time I've got the full sheet.

nickr
24-03-2010, 10:10 PM
Dear Peter,
there is a gentleman in the US by the name of James Binnion who is very adept at this art, I know he has published on it but I have seen his work through a thing called the Ganoksin project, which is an online jewellers forum that has no real boundaries but many very useful bench work videos, artists galleries etc. You should get in touch with him, he is a metallurgist as well as a very talented artist.
This is not really a plug for another forum but it is worth looking at.
Nick

ps_bond
25-03-2010, 09:04 AM
Hi Nick -

I've spoken to Jim a few times; there used to be a Yahoo group for mokume gane, but that is sadly defunct these days. He's another engineer who went into jewellery... :)

I do read Ganoksin, but I don't post there - I've never been that much of a fan of mailing lists.

Kwant
25-03-2010, 08:23 PM
That really is a beautiful thing.

Nikolai
05-04-2010, 11:23 PM
I like this topic :)

Olulabelle
07-06-2010, 07:58 AM
Hi everyone

There is an amazing Mokume Gane course at the Birmingham School of Jewellery in July 2010 which I have signed up to, but the course needs just one more person to go ahead. I am posting this here because I desperately want to go so I was wondering if anyone else might like to sign up. If they don't find one more person then I can't go and it's taken me ages to save up the money!

I can't post the detials of the url apparently until I have made 5 posts, but the details on the Birmingham Institute Of Art & Design (BIAD) site, - Short Courses in Jewellery.

You need to click on the PDF (it's not listed directly on the website, but it's 26th-29th July with Alistair McCallum.)

Thanks

Isabella

ahunter
07-06-2010, 08:48 PM
Today we've just added our first mixed metals to our range, a toe in the water so to speak.
We would love to know what everyone thinks.. information is a little basic at the moment hope to update tomorrow.

Mokume Gane Sheet in two patterns -
Mokume Gane Sheet - Silver Sheet | Sterling Sheet Silver - Cookson Gold (http://www.cooksongold.com/category_select.jsp?category=Sheet&Alloy=Mokume_Gane_Sheet&Thickness=0&Type=0&show=N&submit.x=6&submit.y=11&submit=submit&prdsearch=y&pagenum=0&orderby=numpicks&numperpage=25)

Silver sheet sprinkled with palladium -
Palladium Sprinkled Silver - Silver Sheet | Sterling Sheet Silver - Cookson Gold (http://www.cooksongold.com/category_select.jsp?category=Sheet&Alloy=Palladium_Sprinkled_Silver&Thickness=0&Type=0&subsearch=1&show=N&submit.x=9&submit.y=7&submit=submit&prdsearch=y&pagenum=0&orderby=numpicks&numperpage=25)

MuranoSilver
08-06-2010, 09:39 AM
Loving the Palladium sheet and nice to see some alternative metals in :)

mizgeorge
08-06-2010, 09:49 AM
How much?
My jaw nearly hit the desk.....

Shaun750
02-07-2010, 10:40 AM
Great thread,
The end result looks purdy.
I stayed up to six in the morning watching videos on youtube on mokume gane a while back.
Then tried a rough version with brass and copper and a torch,it was half stuck together and came out like razors blades.
Chucked in the experimental pile, then chucked in the bin.
The trouble trouble with it is you would really have to me sure of what you are doing before you risk mixing gold with silver.I dont see how it could be hallmarked either.
It appeals to the macho side of me, as it's similar to technique to Damascus steel used in sword making.

ps_bond
02-07-2010, 10:45 AM
The trouble trouble with it is you would really have to me sure of what you are doing before you risk mixing gold with silver.I dont see how it could be hallmarked either.

The Assay Office London recently changed their approach on mixed metals - it's now possible to have mokume with a precious metal content hallmarked. So for silver & copper, as it's obvious that the copper is there, it would bear both the purity for the silver part and "METAL" alongside.


It appeals to the macho side of me, as it's similar to technique to Damascus steel used in sword making.

Same origins, too. Well, not "Damascus", but Japanese sword steel.

Once you've made your own the price of the commercial stuff doesn't seem so bad; it's not the fusing, it's the subsequent work that the material needs that takes the time.

Shaun750
03-07-2010, 01:19 AM
This thread started me off again.I hd another go at making moke gane with some success.i used some old two pences(some of the newer ones are plated),brass and some silver. Had a little pile of metal floating in a puddle of flux.the silver or brass acted almost like solder.Some of it actually stayed together!. I'll take a photo of the bit that seems to have worked.
It's gotta be made into a japanese ??? something or other design i suppose.
Oh yeah I'm typing mostly with one hand.Picking up hot metal seriously affects your ability to type!

enigma
30-12-2016, 01:44 PM
Seriously fabulous Peter! thanks for sharing the process!